Rebuild/Restructure and What does that look like?

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yeah I think us draft lovers and hardcore fans can get behind this but I think TSNE's fears of alienating the casual fan shouldn't be taken lightly. Casual fans care about one thing and one thing only, a team that is competing. They don't care about the draft and/or developement of prospects and see the team not being in a playoff spot as a failure. This is the major downside to being in a small market where you don't have enough hardcore fans to support the rebuilds while the casual fans just pop in during the good years.



That's possible. I'm hoping they will adjust accordingly and we can turn this summer into a more interesting path.



There was some chatter about a buy out, which I think is the likely path there.

I think there are more hardcore fans than you might think. Or, if not really hardcore, then certainly more than just casual.

If there are no takers for Wheeler with whatever amount of retention Jets are willing to accept then I think a buyout might make sense to TNSE. But I think they only go that route if Wheeler wants it. Otherwise, look for a TD deal to a contender. Also only if Wheeler wants it.

 

[ERYX]

Canucks fan coming in with as much peace as a opposing fan can come with.


Are you guys excited for this retool?

Excited if it actually happens.

Still not convinced that it actually does, and that management doesn't try "running it back" with the same roster yet again, perhaps minus PLD and plus a few scraps.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yeah we can't really a pull a scorched earth rebuild like Toronto, NY, Montreal or Chicago can. Big markets that have no issues attracting free agents can speed along their scorched earth builds much easier.

Just look at how hard Edmonton spiralled. Their only saving grace was drafting McDrai.



Yeah but the decisions made are all about how they view the situation not us. There's a handful of people making these decisions for better or worse and it looks like they don't plan on rebuilding.

That is .... if you believe what they say, or rather, what some other says they say.

Not disputing the conclusion. I lean toward believing it myself. Not because I believe that Wpg can't handle a rebuild but because I believe that TN believes that Wpg can't handle a rebuild.

I think wayyyy too much is made out of the FA thing because so many FA signings turn out badly. Even those that work well for a couple of years tend to go South well before the contracts are up. How do you think the Gaudreau and Kadri contracts are going to look in a couple of years?

But FA signings aside, a full on rebuild needs to be executed well or it can last too long. Trading top players for mid-round 1sts in years with weak draft classes works out badly. Look at Buffalo. They just illustrate how easy it is to not get a rebuild done right in a reasonable time frame. Although I think Wpg could handle a deep rebuild, I don't think we could handle one that goes badly and takes too long. Jets management would need to get it right the first time.

Keeping 55 under any circumstances, conditions, scenarios whatsoever absolutely and unequivocally makes no sense to me, but of course, my opinion of him tends to be a tad lower than how others perceive him.

That's why I hedged on the advisability of keeping him. A lot of people have developed a low opinion of him in recent years - but they might be wrong, even you. It is possible.

 

[Daximus]

I think there are more hardcore fans than you might think. Or, if not really hardcore, then certainly more than just casual.

If there are no takers for Wheeler with whatever amount of retention Jets are willing to accept then I think a buyout might make sense to TNSE. But I think they only go that route if Wheeler wants it. Otherwise, look for a TD deal to a contender. Also only if Wheeler wants it.

Generally in every market the casual fans vastly outweight the hardcore fans. There are far more fairweather fans than there are fans who are there through thick and thin. This is why bigger markets can handle dips in team performance better and always will be able to.

 

[Daximus]

That is .... if you believe what they say, or rather, what some other says they say.

Not disputing the conclusion. I lean toward believing it myself. Not because I believe that Wpg can't handle a rebuild but because I believe that TN believes that Wpg can't handle a rebuild.

I think wayyyy too much is made out of the FA thing because so many FA signings turn out badly. Even those that work well for a couple of years tend to go South well before the contracts are up. How do you think the Gaudreau and Kadri contracts are going to look in a couple of years?

But FA signings aside, a full on rebuild needs to be executed well or it can last too long. Trading top players for mid-round 1sts in years with weak draft classes works out badly. Look at Buffalo. They just illustrate how easy it is to not get a rebuild done right in a reasonable time frame. Although I think Wpg could handle a deep rebuild, I don't think we could handle one that goes badly and takes too long. Jets management would need to get it right the first time.

So far we have multiple people reporting on it within both TSN and Sportsnet. From Dregs, to Button to Friedman. All we can do is work with what we have when we speculate and it seems the Jets are far more interested in roster players than futures for these deals.

I think it's important to be able to have FA signings in your back pocket to augment a rebuild. They don't even have to be big and splashy players but you need to be able to be competative there. As well as being able to freely trade for players. Another thing the Jets have working against them given the fact that so many NTC's have Winnipeg on them. You can only rely on building through the draft so much. There is a luck factor there that won't always come through.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I have a feeling if PLD goes, Chevy will make every effort to sign Scheifele. I'm okay with that if we get a good return for PLD, which we can.

If we move Helle too, then We can probably get a really good goalie and a D back if we add something to the package.

The real wildcard is can any of our prospects step up. Heinola is poised to play, Chisolm maybe too. Lambert could play in the NHL with his speed. Is Cole Perfetti able to be a 2C?

If we can get a slightly above average goalie, a good return for PLD and D upgrade, the team could be really good. PLD, Helle (all sign and trade) and one of our veteran D included can get a lot.

They might get a lot but I think not that much.

The only really good goalie who might be available would be Swayman in Boston. I've seen quite a bit of talk from Bruins fans that 1 goalie has to go. I think most leaned toward moving Swayman. (you don't move your current Vezina goalie while trying to win now with an aging roster)

There would be competition for him but starting with Dubois is already paying at the very high end for goalies. People here keep pointing out that goalies don't bring big trade returns in regards to us trading Helle. The same goes for Swayman. If it was necessary to add to PLD it would have to be a pick or prospect because BB have cap issues already. And not too high end either. Goalies don't bring big returns.

If we could pull that off, I think we would be well on our way to a quick turnaround.

How about Helle + Heinola to CBJ for
Corson Ceulemans + Boone Jenner + Andrew Peeke?
Jenner and Peeke are semi cap dumps. They are not junk and would play for us but they also are surplus to requirements in CBJ and would provide them with cap relief.

Despite having recently started a rebuild CBJ is looking to win now with the acquisitions of Laine (signed), Gaudreau, Provorov and Severson. But they need a goalie.

They also need an established top 6 C. The above could be reworked to include Scheifele. But as is it allows Jets to keep him, for those who want that. Delete Heinola, add Scheifele and Cole Sillinger.

OK, I know that is a fan's trade - but it has both teams pretty close to completing their rebuilds.

They still have to pay the cash on those. I am not sure if they want to burn money

They don't want to spend like that if they are rebuilding. Attendance will drop.

They could do it in some case where the actual salary remaining is small compared to the cap hit though. There are still a few of those around.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Edmonton isn't a very good comparable, because they've never had an issue selling out their Barn even during the decade of darkness. That was more consummate mismanagement than anything.



I think Boston has two fairly capable goaltenders that can probably be swung for in a trade. Maybe they can be part of a larger deal. Trent Frederic RFA rights, Jeremy Swayman, and a 1st for PLD + Stanley sound like a decent package to me.

I think you pay too much. Drop Frederic and the 1st.

 

[Daximus]

They might get a lot but I think not that much.

The only really good goalie who might be available would be Swayman in Boston. I've seen quite a bit of talk from Bruins fans that 1 goalie has to go. I think most leaned toward moving Swayman. (you don't move your current Vezina goalie while trying to win now with an aging roster)

There would be competition for him but starting with Dubois is already paying at the very high end for goalies. People here keep pointing out that goalies don't bring big trade returns in regards to us trading Helle. The same goes for Swayman. If it was necessary to add to PLD it would have to be a pick or prospect because BB have cap issues already. And not too high end either. Goalies don't bring big returns.

If we could pull that off, I think we would be well on our way to a quick turnaround.

How about Helle + Heinola to CBJ for
Corson Ceulemans + Boone Jenner + Andrew Peeke?
Jenner and Peeke are semi cap dumps. They are not junk and would play for us but they also are surplus to requirements in CBJ and would provide them with cap relief.

Despite having recently started a rebuild CBJ is looking to win now with the acquisitions of Laine (signed), Gaudreau, Provorov and Severson. But they need a goalie.

They also need an established top 6 C. The above could be reworked to include Scheifele. But as is it allows Jets to keep him, for those who want that. Delete Heinola, add Scheifele and Cole Sillinger.

OK, I know that is a fan's trade - but it has both teams pretty close to completing their rebuilds.



They don't want to spend like that if they are rebuilding. Attendance will drop.

They could do it in some case where the actual salary remaining is small compared to the cap hit though. There are still a few of those around.

I have a feeling that CBJ is pretty inclined to ride Elvis into this season to see what he can do when the team in front of him has a better defence.

 

[gojetsgo]

I think you pay too much. Drop Frederic and the 1st.

you think pld + stanley for swaymen is a good deal?

 

[Daximus]

you think pld + stanley for swaymen is a good deal?

Stanley has like no value right now. He's basically a throw in to any deal.

 

[gojetsgo]

Stanley has like no value right now. He's basically a throw in to any deal.

even if he has no value(debatable considering gm's love their big defensemen just look at what vegas is doing) pld for swaymen is not a good deal, bostons in cap hell like no other and don't have much in terms of prospects/picks to be able to move out contracts they would need to in order to sign pld + 8 others to fill out their roster, there was also serravalli mentioning that boston might need to trade fredrick because he could get 2 million in arbitration and they can't afford that

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

well it looks like aiming towards rebuild with Helle and PLD likely gone.

i do think they keep scheifele till the TDL though. you need some semblance of depth and talent for the youngsters to play with or get acclimated.

so PLD, Helle, Wheeler bought out, id move out Dillon too.

ehlers-scheifele-nino
connor-perfetti/x-x/perfetti
barron-lowry-appleton
i-dont-care

*have to see what perfetti has at C. i have not been super bullish on it, however, you have to see what you have there*

morrissey-demelo
samberg-schmidt
heinola-pionk

x
y

TDL: scheifele, nino goes. listen on lowry if a team knocks-your-socks off with a deal prior to a PO run. i think demelo is a good vet player to have on a short-term deal to help get the youth acclimated+good locker room guy. but similarly to lowry, if a team is offering something like a 2nd or a 3rd+good prospect something like that id move him too.

Agree that we have to see if Perfetti can be a C. It could be yes, no or yes but not yet.

Not sure I would part with either DeMelo or Lowry for a 2nd or later. Does the 24 draft look deep? I'd rather take a good prospect. Doesn't have to be great, just good.

 

[DRW204]

I reckon the ideal scenario is that Helle/Dubois/Dillon get moved in the summer, Scheifele at the deadline, and Wheeler is a bonus if he ends up going.

My actual prediction is that Dubois gets moved in the summer, Wheeler doesn't at all, Scheifele moves at the deadline, and Chevy botches trading Helle and Dillon completely and they walk as UFAs.

Sorry I meant for demelo a 2nd or a 3rd+good prospect. Similar to Lowry in the aspect someone would have to offer something really sweet. For Lowry It'd have to be even better than that.

 

[JetsFan815]

Stanley has like no value right now. He's basically a throw in to any deal.

Stanley is 6'7 and has a reputation of being physical. Any guy who is that big and has that reputation and has played NHL minutes has value. I think his value is much higher than a throw-in.

Jets fans don't value him much because they have seen him play up close and feel his ceiling but there are many NHL GMs who are mesmerized by size who'd give up something decent for him.

I reckon the ideal scenario is that Helle/Dubois/Dillon get moved in the summer, Scheifele at the deadline, and Wheeler is a bonus if he ends up going.

Dillon and Scheifele should be switched. A guy like Dillon always seems to have more value at the deadline where teams are falling over each other to acquire big physical guys. I'd want Scheifele traded this summer though, I worry about him being injured or having a down year (not likely but possible). A guy like Dillon doesn't matter what kind of year he has is going to have good value at the deadline.

 

[DRW204]

Does Dillon have more value at the tdl or now? Given the top 4LD market for FA stinks and jets can retain.

Im good with either just thought he might have a tad more value now and perhaps can land a 2024 late 1st or maybe early 2nds from a contender that needs a cheap, physical, solid defense first vet dman that can play 2nd pair. it gets the prospect earlier in the system too by a year.

for instance - i thought if LA struck out Gavrikov, we could've traded them Dillon for the year and taken on Peterson + their 2024 1st and a prospect like Turcotte

It also gives Samberg a full year worth of reps in the top 4. I have my doubts he'll be top 4 if Dillon is still an option through the first 75% of the year.

not sure how much emphasis the last 2 points should have, but something to consider.

 

[tbcwpg]

Does Dillon have more value at the tdl or now? Given the top 4LD market for FA stinks and jets can retain.

Im good with either just thought he might have a tad more value now and perhaps can land a 2024 late 1st or maybe early 2nds from a contender that needs a cheap, physical, solid defense first get dman. (it gets the prospect earlier in the system too)

It also gives Samberg a full year worth of reps in the top 4. I have my doubts he'll be top 4 if Dillon is still an option.

Feel like he's not getting a 1st now, that type of D doesn't usually go for 1sts at this time of year. You could maybe squeeze a late 1st at the deadline, I think.

Depends if you value a slightly better return over giving some younger guys more reps.

 

[Buffdog]

Does Dillon have more value at the tdl or now? Given the top 4LD market for FA stinks and jets can retain.

Im good with either just thought he might have a tad more value now and perhaps can land a 2024 late 1st or maybe early 2nds from a contender that needs a cheap, physical, solid defense first get dman. (it gets the prospect earlier in the system too)

It also gives Samberg a full year worth of reps in the top 4. I have my doubts he'll be top 4 if Dillon is still an option.

I would assume (for no reason whatsoever) that one (or more) of Heinola, Stanley or Dillon will be involved in one of the PLD, helle and schief trades. Especially if it's LA.. they have a glut of RHD prospects but a lack of LHD.

You could arguably get rid of two of the three. Stanley just because, and Dillon for something with value

 

[DRW204]

Feel like he's not getting a 1st now, that type of D doesn't usually go for 1sts at this time of year. You could maybe squeeze a late 1st at the deadline, I think.

Depends if you value a slightly better return over giving some younger guys more reps.

would have to look into team's current depth charts to see who might need a top-4 D, and which ones still have 2023 1sts (many of them have been traded i feel like) or early 2nds. and then cross-reference w/ cap-space and group of UFA LDs available & their estimated cap-hits.

but yea, at the TDL it's possible but there may be plenty of D available (2024 UFA class looks much better). there's also possibility of injury or Jets stand pat in a PO position.

I would assume (for no reason whatsoever) that one (or more) of Heinola, Stanley or Dillon will be involved in one of the PLD, helle and schief trades. Especially if it's LA.. they have a glut of RHD prospects but a lack of LHD.

You could arguably get rid of two of the three. Stanley just because, and Dillon for something with value

assume that why? LA seems pretty set on defense now.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Does Dillon have more value at the tdl or now? Given the top 4LD market for FA stinks and jets can retain.

Im good with either just thought he might have a tad more value now and perhaps can land a 2024 late 1st or maybe early 2nds from a contender that needs a cheap, physical, solid defense first vet dman that can play 2nd pair. it gets the prospect earlier in the system too by a year.

for instance - i though if LA struck out Gavrikov, we could've traded them Dillon for the year and taken on Peterson + their 2024 1st and a prospect.

It also gives Samberg a full year worth of reps in the top 4. I have my doubts he'll be top 4 if Dillon is still an option through the first 75% of the year.

not sure how much emphasis the last 2 points should have, but something to consider.

Good point -- vet wins the tie, always, round here. I'm betting that Samberg, fresh from a strong WC, is looking to play his way up the pecking order and not just pay his dues on the 3rd pairing.

If there's a Core 3 or 4 clear-out, then it makes sense to test the waters for Dillon and then look to move one of Chisholm or Heinola onto a sheltered pairing or even bet on Stanley to play a decent stretch of hockey there.

I like Dillon, but if we're down Helle, PLD and potentially 55, I doubt he moves the PO needle for whatever the Jets have become.

 

[DRW204]

Good point -- vet wins the tie, always, round here. I'm betting that Samberg, fresh from a strong WC, is looking to play his way up the pecking order and not just pay his dues on the 3rd pairing.

If there's a Core 3 or 4 clear-out, then it makes sense to test the waters for Dillon and then look to move one of Chisholm or Heinola onto a sheltered pairing or even bet on Stanley to play a decent stretch of hockey there.

I like Dillon, but if we're down Helle, PLD and potentially 55, I doubt he moves the PO needle for whatever the Jets have become.

yup i really like dillon's play too. but given they may be moving out some supposed leaders (wheeler, scheif) i think they may keep him for the intangibles. he did wear an A last year too at times. org. values him highly, he also gets a 2M bonus July 1, fwiw.

 

[Buffdog]

would have to look into team's current depth charts to see who might need a top-4 D, and which ones still have 2023 1sts (many of them have been traded i feel like) or early 2nds. and then cross-reference w/ cap-space and group of UFA LDs available & their estimated cap-hits.

but yea, at the TDL it's possible but there may be plenty of D available (2024 UFA class looks much better). there's also possibility of injury or Jets stand pat in a PO position.


assume that why? LA seems pretty set on defense now.

They don't have a 3rd pairing LD signed (as per capfriendly). I guess they could promote one from Ontario or Durzi can play the left side and Clarke makes the roster out of camp

 

[DRW204]

They don't have a 3rd pairing LD signed (as per capfriendly). I guess they could promote one from Ontario or Durzi can play the left side and Clarke makes the roster out of camp

yea i think they're pretty set now at LD w/ the Gavrikov signing & Durzi can play both sides. Then Clarke gets called up as you mentioned.

for a 3rd pair D you can get through FA for dirt cheap too, like they did w/ Edler last year, instead of paying in trade chips for Dillon.

id be looking at teams who are looking to fulfill a top-4 LD spot. but there may not be any this off-season (i have not looked super intensively)

 

[Nickel eye Heel hers]

Canucks fan coming in with as much peace as a opposing fan can come with.


Are you guys excited for this retool?

Some say excited, I say fearful of possible outcomes.
There a lot of moving parts from now to next season. This could turn into a rebuild with poor player asset management.

 

[Daximus]

Some say excited, I say fearful of possible outcomes.
There a lot of moving parts from now to next season. This could turn into a rebuild with poor player asset management.

We don't even know if it's an actual rebuild yet.

 

[macmaroon]

Stanley is 6'7 and has a reputation of being physical. Any guy who is that big and has that reputation and has played NHL minutes has value. I think his value is much higher than a throw-in.

As I have said before, you can't teach 6'7...