RD Moritz Seider (2019, 6th, DET) Part 3

[lakai17]

No disrespect to Suter and Weber, but based on their tools and the way they're trending - that's not really a best case scenario for Edvinsson and Seider.

Also, Dubnyk was posting .910sv% at the same age as Cossa is posting .940+. Not gonna pretend to know much about goalies but I see no reason to say that's the BEST outcome for Cossa.

Not sure you’ve witnessed a prime Weber or Suter

 

[r0bert8841]

I think, if anything it will be more akin to Weber and Suter, not Pronger and Nieds.

I have to disagree. I think Stylistically its very similar to Pronger/Nieds. Seider plays like Pronger in Niedermeyer's body, and Edvinsson plays like Niedermeyer in Pronger's body. The pair should stylistically be similar. Whether or not they reach the same heights is a different story.

 

[r0bert8841]

Not sure you’ve witnessed a prime Weber or Suter

The Wings played these guys 6 times a year for years. And in the playoffs. I am sure everyone in this thread has witnessed plenty of prime Weber/Suter.

I agree with the Weber Seider comparisions but Edvinsson and Suter are nothing alike.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Having optimism is nice, but you also have to be a little realistic. If Seider and Edvinsson become Weber and Suter that would be amazing. Although neither ended up winning the Norris, they were amongst the best defenders in the league for YEARS.

The dude said "best case scenario" though. Similar to saying best case scenario for Eklund is a William Nylander. Nah.. that's a solid ballpark, but the upside is obviously even greater.

Not sure you’ve witnessed a prime Weber or Suter

Was Suter a 6'6'' elite skater in his prime?

 

[ijuka]

One thing I never understood about the general reports on Seider is that his offensive potential was / is considered limited. The first time I saw Seider play was during the world championships in 2019 and at the time it was clear to me that he was going to have significant offensive potential. Of course it remains to be seen whether that actually materializes in a consistent manner but I just did not understand why he was considered limited offensively.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I think, if anything it will be more akin to Weber and Suter, not Pronger and Nieds. That would be insane in itself and it's not completely far-fetched as I think Seider will be the closest thing to a modern day Shea Weber -- with a more fluid game, minus the 104 mph bomb. But, does Edvinsson develop into a Ryan Suter? Those are some huge shoes to fill... but Yzerman has a knack for recognizing talent.

Let's play best case scenario...

Larkin = prime Pavelski
Raymond = Zetterberg
Bertuzzi = M. Tkachuk
Berggren = W. Nylander
Vrana = Fiala
Seider = Weber
Edvinsson = Suter
McIsaac = Muzzin
Cossa = top-end Dubnyk or Bishop

... then the Wings have a monster core to build around. But I think Zadina and Veleno will ultimately disappoint... and Stevie needs to land a few more gems over the next few years plus keep this core together in a cap world.

Those aren’t bad comparables overall. I don’t agree on Veleno, however. I think worst case scenario is he’s a Darren Helm-esque 3C. 30ish points, solid D and hustle. Higher end I think maybe Matt Cullen.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

The dude said "best case scenario" though. Similar to saying best case scenario for Eklund is a William Nylander. Nah.. that's a solid ballpark, but the upside is obviously even greater.


Was Suter a 6'6'' elite skater in his prime?

I understand what you're trying to say, however I seriously think you're underrating Suter and Weber's primes. I don't think the original poster was comparing their playing styles entirely, but moreso their overall impact on games. Weber and Suter both played almost 30/mins a game in their primes. Absolutely that is a best case scenario for both of the Wings prospects...because what defenseman can physically play more than that. Sure maybe they'll get more points, but do you seriously think they're both going to turn into the next Lidstrom or Orr? Also comparing their primes to Nylander is unfair to them as well, but that's besides the point.

 

[Ricelund]

One thing I never understood about the general reports on Seider is that his offensive potential was / is considered limited. The first time I saw Seider play was during the world championships in 2019 and at the time it was clear to me that he was going to have significant offensive potential. Of course it remains to be seen whether that actually materializes in a consistent manner but I just did not understand why he was considered limited offensively.

I agree. To be honest, I think what probably happened is scouts didn’t know much about him and just saw his projected draft position (15-25ish) and assumed he must be a defensive defenseman.

His shot isn’t great but he’s already capable of running the PP and moves the puck very well.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I understand what you're trying to say, however I seriously think you're underrating Suter and Weber's primes. I don't think the original poster was comparing their playing styles entirely, but moreso their overall impact on games. Weber and Suter both played almost 30/mins a game in their primes. Absolutely that is a best case scenario for both of the Wings prospects...because what defenseman can physically play more than that.

More ways to measure impact than just icetime. That's kind of cherrypicking a stat tbh.

do you seriously think they're both going to turn into the next Lidstrom or Orr?

What I seriously think is gonna happen isn't necessarily the best case scenario.

Also there's room between Shea Weber and Bobby Orr.

 

[Ratatoskr]

One thing I never understood about the general reports on Seider is that his offensive potential was / is considered limited. The first time I saw Seider play was during the world championships in 2019 and at the time it was clear to me that he was going to have significant offensive potential. Of course it remains to be seen whether that actually materializes in a consistent manner but I just did not understand why he was considered limited offensively.

What happened was that in his draft year, he played in a professional league as a 17 year old defenseman, and by his own statement, he focused on being defensively sound, at the expense of his offense. Then, when the draft drew nearer, and he came to the attention of pundits and fans, nuance got lost - as it is wont to do - and they only saw his less than stellar offensive production, and decided that he must be an offensively challenged defensive d-man. That's how this narrative came about.

 

[cjeagle]

I have to disagree. I think Stylistically its very similar to Pronger/Nieds. Seider plays like Pronger in Niedermeyer's body, and Edvinsson plays like Niedermeyer in Pronger's body. The pair should stylistically be similar. Whether or not they reach the same heights is a different story.

This kind of reminds me of the New Jersey Devils roster that won the Stanley Cup in 1995 sweeping the Redwings in the process in the SC Finals. They had defenceman Stevens and Niedermayer in the lineup. The Redwings were the overwhelming favorites to win it all but they had no answer to the Devil's physical play particularly Steven's devastating hits.

 

[Boxscore]

No disrespect to Suter and Weber, but based on their tools and the way they're trending - that's not really a best case scenario for Edvinsson and Seider.

I'm talking prime Weber and Suter lol. There's a chance both could end up in the Hall -- if not, they're on the cusp.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

Here I am, tickled pink, that my Red Wings have a prospect that fans are arguing about whether or not he's more like Weber or Pronger.

It's really a Mr. Burns "excellent" moment.

Personally I think Seider is going to develop into Seider. He will become a benchmark

 

[newfy]

No disrespect to Suter and Weber, but based on their tools and the way they're trending - that's not really a best case scenario for Edvinsson and Seider.

Also, Dubnyk was posting .910sv% at the same age as Cossa is posting .940+. Not gonna pretend to know much about goalies but I see no reason to say that's the BEST outcome for Cossa.

Come on man, I'm a wings fan but Weber and Suter are pretty much best case scenarios for those guys. Weber was arguably the best dman in the league for 5 or 6 seasons and Suter was arguably top 3-5 for roughly the same period. They have 15 Norris top 10 finishes combined. Getting 2 top 5 dmen in the league is the best case, if you want to play semantics sure there is technically a chance they could be top 2 but its ridiculously unlikely.

As for Cossa, Dunyk had a run of 3 straight Vezina nominations, top 4 hart finishes and another season where he finished top 5 for Vezina. He might not have the name value youre looking for but thats as close to best case as you can get.

Like I said if you want to get technical, sure all of these guys could be the best at their positions or whatever. But thats not realistic.

The only realistic best cases on this list are Seider=Weber, Vrana=Fiala and Cossa=top goalie. Everything else is a stretch and a half.

Bertuzzi is 3 years older than Matt Tkachuk… that’s not his ceiling.

Disagree.

Edvinsson could have a Suter like impact. He was projected top 3 all season going into the draft and is having a season thats better than people expected despite that projection.

Larkin could absolutely be as good as a prime Pavelski. His career high in points right now is 6 points off of Pavelski except Larkin has never got to play with a stacked line up like Pavelski had.

Berggren could have a Nylander impact based on what he did in Sweden last year. Give Berggren 4 or 5 years to develop and stick him on Matthews wing and it will be interesting to see what he can do. He may never hit it, but right now Berggren does have the potential to be a first line winger.

I dont think McIsaac is a Muzzin necessarily but the wings have a bunch of dmen where I would bet money they have someone drafted outside of Seider and Edvinsson that will have a comparable impact to Muzzin on the ice. Maybe not style wise but as a top 3 dman type, and thats not even counting Hronek

 

[Boxscore]

One thing I never understood about the general reports on Seider is that his offensive potential was / is considered limited.

I never understood that either, based on his robust skill set. But it's likely because...

1. His size and physical play overshadows his raw skill, as hard as that is to believe. Similar to Chris Pronger -- he was known for the size, meanness and physicality but his first pass and ability to run a PP were elite-level.

2. Sieder is so well-rounded, scouts assume he will end up the ultimate, minute-muncher, gobbling up the tough minutes and PK, therefore limited on the PP and in an offensive roll.

My opinion is that this kid has all the tools and the sky is the limit -- he will force himself into any situation because he is simply that talented. The only thing preventing him from reaching his 55+ point upside is the Wings brining in a bona fide PP specialist who hogs most prime PP minutes. If not, Sieder can one day have Pronger, Weber, Hedman, Carlson like impact offensively.

 

[Boxscore]

Having optimism is nice, but you also have to be a little realistic. If Seider and Edvinsson become Weber and Suter that would be amazing. Although neither ended up winning the Norris, they were amongst the best defenders in the league for YEARS.

I don't think people realize how great prime Weber and Suter were -- probably because they played for a long time and the most recent memories of them are in their older years. When young, these dudes were animals, and among the absolute best at their position. To your point, neither won a Norris, but Seider and Edvinsson will be competing against Hedman, Fox, Josi, Makar, Heiskanen, Ekblad, Hughes, Werenski, Chabot, Carlson, McAvoy, Drysdale, Dahlin, etc. for Norrises over the next 10-12 years... let alone other prodigies that arrive... so there's no guarantee that either of them ever win a Norris. And, even if they don't, that's okay... they can still be top defensemen. Alex Pietrangelo and Jay Bouwmeester never won the Norris -- would Wings fans be happy if Seider and Edvinsson ended up Pieto and JBo at their absolute best?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Come on man, I'm a wings fan but Weber and Suter are pretty much best case scenarios for those guys.

Just don't see 50 point ceilings for either of them. It shouldn't be controversial at all. The problem is people think a "best case scenario" is what is expected. If we want to talk realistic expectations, yes, 50 point two-way d-men that can have the occasional top 3 or top 5 Norris season is realistic and would be a very nice result all things considered.

To put it like this for Edvinsson:

floor: Ristolainen type
realistic expectation: Darnell Nurse
best case scenario: Victor Hedman

But thats not realistic.

Best case scenarios rarely are. Best case scenario is the Wings become a perennial contender. That's HIGHLY unlikely though. If we win one cup in the next 20 years, that's amazing and we should all be extremely happy. But it's not the best case scenario.

 

[Boxscore]

To put it like this for Edvinsson:

best case scenario: Victor Hedman

When it's all said and done, Hedman could be one of the Top-10 defensemen to ever play the position. Using him as a "best case scenario" for Edvinsson is like saying best case for lucas Raymond is Jaromir Jagr -- it's just not fair or realistic lol. I mean, sure, best case for Larkin is Mark Messier but there's a 0.000000000001% chance Larkin reaches that, so why bother?

I think Seider has a better chance of become Hedman-esque and that's even outlandish pressure. In terms of impact, I've also felt Seider could be as important to the Wings as Weber was to the Preds and Habs -- their "Mr. Everything" achor.

Edvinsson, based on his style of play...

Floor: Brady Skjei or Hampus Lindholm
Realistic: Jeff Petry or Jay Bouwmeester
Best Case Scenario: Prime Ryan Suter or peak OEL (at his best)

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's the Seider thread so if we want to continue the discussion we can take it to the Edvinsson thread.
It is what it is. I probably think these players have lower floors than you (Lindholm >>> OEL), but higher ceilings. We'll know more in a few years.

 

[nergish]

Also, Dubnyk was posting .910sv% at the same age as Cossa is posting .940+. Not gonna pretend to know much about goalies but I see no reason to say that's the BEST outcome for Cossa.

Dubynk was an NHL allstar at his peak. He just took a long time to get there.

They're similar in terms of size and playing style, both just absolute crease monsters.
But I can see Cossa avoiding some of the struggles Dubnyk had early in his career.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Yes. More Seider plzkthnx.

I really hope that the Icehockeygifs guy makes a reel of the more subtle defensive plays Seider has been making in the NHL. The guy has displayed such incredible anticipation and ability to read the play along with incredible hand-eye coordination to swat down passes.

 

[Boxscore]

It's the Seider thread so if we want to continue the discussion we can take it to the Edvinsson thread.
It is what it is. I probably think these players have lower floors than you (Lindholm >>> OEL), but higher ceilings. We'll know more in a few years.

Fair points all around.

 

[Stony Curtis]

IIRC, didn't Seider have a monster-level cardio workout at the combines? I couldn't find anything online, but I remember reading he tested at the top of the draft class. That might allow him to play big minutes as well as some PP time.

 

[Ricelund]

IIRC, didn't Seider have a monster-level cardio workout at the combines? I couldn't find anything online, but I remember reading he tested at the top of the draft class. That might allow him to play big minutes as well as some PP time.

Yeah, I believe his VO2 max was off the charts. I'm sure @Henkka would know.

 

[SimplySolace]

Yeah, I believe his VO2 max was off the charts. I'm sure @Henkka would know.

#2 for test duration, #4 for VO2 Max

2019 NHL Combine results: Top 10 at each drill - Sportsnet.ca