RD Moritz Seider (2019, 6th, DET) Part 2

[FinnBear]

Good morning Red Wings fans -
I have been reading this discussion with interest and figured I would add my opinion.
I have been to and watched DEL games for 25 years now and what Moritz has accomplished is tremendous. To enter the line up of the Mannheim Adler at age 16 to play 4 games is outstanding, especially for a defenseman.
That Mannheim would put so much trust in him is testimony of how complete of a player he was at that age.

Unlike juniors, in the DEL his competition players are grown men, many players in their prime years with plenty of AHL, NHL and high level international competition experience.

The DEL has not seen many high scoring defenseman since the later 90s when hockey was different and guys like Greg Johnston, Shane Peacock and Bradley Bergen put on ungodly great performances (I do miss those days). 6 points in 29 games was excellent, this league is hard on defenseman and rookies and here you have both in a package.
He is well worth the #6 pick and its gonna be in the Wings best interest to sign him on long term. He is going to be solid on both ends of the ice without all the flash. He won't be quite Nicklas Lidstrom but here you have your player to build around for a long time.

 

[Eye of Ra]

The DEL has not seen many high scoring defenseman since the later 90s when hockey was different and guys like Greg Johnston, Shane Peacock and Bradley Bergen.

Fredrik Eriksson?

 

[Winger98]

Exactly. Echoing other posters, he doesn't have to be Hedman to be a #1. If he's playing upwards of 25 minutes a night at the NHL level, and handling a ton of PK time and platooning on the PP, he's a #1 on most teams. He may not become the creme de la creme #1 like Hedman, but is expecting HOF level play from players all that realistic? Larkin, for instance, is a 1C, but just a middle of the road 1C all things considered. Ideally he plays at 2C and becomes a nightmare matchup for opposing teams top players, but that requires getting a top 10 C to take over the 1C duties. If the Blues could win with ROR as their 1C, its possible, with the right roster to win with Larkin-esque 1C. If Seider continues this trend, he'll be an average 1D or elite 2D once he's done developing, which is absolutely the kind of building block that a team needs for Cup contention.

on the 1C front, who was Tampa's 1C? Point? Nice player and all, but not on the level of the sort of guys the Wings had holding down the C spot for twenty years. You don't need top10 players at C and D to contend for a cup any more. Hell, look at Vegas.

 

[FinnBear]

Fredrik is very talented offensively and he will do well for Klagenfurt this year but back in those days, hockey was more of a fire wagon style and defenceman would put up 20 goals, 50 point seasons. It was alot of fun to watch. The DEL has evolved into a much more disciplined and better coached league now. Games are tighter and from a technical stand point much more on point - yes - but it sure was fun seeing 10 - 12 goals a night.

 

[Frobbo]

This isn’t getting off track at all. You just got an answer you didn’t like. You asked where the evidence was that people other than Wings fans thought Seider had #1 potential - and even said you were going off Pronman’s opinion - only to find out that Pronman has changed his own tune on Seider and considers him a top 10 prospect these days.

Pronman had Seider at #6 NOT including the 2020 draftees. If you include them he probably falls minimally 10 spots which isn't as far from where Wheeler has him as you think. Byram, Newhook, and Zegras fell about that far in Wheelers rankings after being lumped with the 2020 guys. He seems to project nearer to his draft slot than initially thought but in the eyes of many, not exceed it.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Pronman had Seider at #6 NOT including the 2020 draftees. If you include them he probably falls minimally 10 spots which isn't as far from where Wheeler has him as you think. Byram, Newhook, and Zegras fell about that far in Wheelers rankings after being lumped with the 2020 guys. He seems to project nearer to his draft slot than initially thought but in the eyes of many, not exceed it.

Ya, because there's no way Seider would slot in the Top 10 of 2020 with the year he had in the AHL.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don't see why so many people tried to gang up on the person who pointed out a ridiculous statement.

Comparing Seider to Dahlin or saying he'll be as good as any young defenseman in the league is ridiculous. I don't even think anyone besides this person believes he has the potential to be one of the best defensemen in the league.

I think most agree that he likely projects as a top pairing defensemen, and could turn into a 1D, depending on how he develops, but there's a gap between being a 1D and being as good as the best 1D's. There's a gap between being as good as Larkin and being as good as McDavid. If someone said a player like Zegras or Cozens projects as good as Larkin, I think most would have no problem with that. If someone said they project as good as McDavid, I think that'd be considered ridiculous.

And while Dahlin might not yet be as good as McDavid, consider his position among defensemen. Many considered him generational prior to being drafted, and he's lived up to his draft position so far. He's not far off the absolute most valuable assets in the league, and certainly has the potential to be one of the best players in the league. Saying Seider will be that is ridiculous, and I don't think anyone whose ganging up on the person who pointed it out even disagrees with that.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I don't see why so many people tried to gang up on the person who pointed out a ridiculous statement.

Comparing Seider to Dahlin or saying he'll be as good as any young defenseman in the league is ridiculous. I don't even think anyone besides this person believes he has the potential to be one of the best defensemen in the league.

I think most agree that he likely projects as a top pairing defensemen, and could turn into a 1D, depending on how he develops, but there's a gap between being a 1D and being as good as the best 1D's. There's a gap between being as good as Larkin and being as good as McDavid. If someone said a player like Zegras or Cozens projects as good as Larkin, I think most would have no problem with that. If someone said they project as good as McDavid, I think that'd be considered ridiculous.

And while Dahlin might not yet be as good as McDavid, consider his position among defensemen. Many considered him generational prior to being drafted, and he's lived up to his draft position so far. He's not far off the absolute most valuable assets in the league, and certainly has the potential to be one of the best players in the league. Saying Seider will be that is ridiculous, and I don't think anyone whose ganging up on the person who pointed it out even disagrees with that.

You literally liked a post of his where he said the only people saying he could be a #1D were Detroit fans, and are now saying he could turn into a #1D...

... He got dogpiled on because he was saying nobody sees Seider as having #1D potential, not because he criticized the Dahlin comparison. That and because he notoriously shits on Detroit prospects, evidenced on the last page.

 

[newfy]

Pronman had Seider at #6 NOT including the 2020 draftees. If you include them he probably falls minimally 10 spots which isn't as far from where Wheeler has him as you think. Byram, Newhook, and Zegras fell about that far in Wheelers rankings after being lumped with the 2020 guys. He seems to project nearer to his draft slot than initially thought but in the eyes of many, not exceed it.

Seider went 6th overall then had a great AHL year and a downright dominant world junior. How does he at minimum fall ten spots adding this years drafted players exactly?

Sanderson went 5th, and I dont see any argument at all for him to be put ahead of Seider right now... but you think a minimum of 9 more players from this draft passed him as well?

 

[Frobbo]

Seider went 6th overall then had a great AHL year and a downright dominant world junior. How does he at minimum fall ten spots adding this years drafted players exactly?

Sanderson went 5th, and I dont see any argument at all for him to be put ahead of Seider right now... but you think a minimum of 9 more players from this draft passed him as well?

Just working from what happened on Wheelers list. Players listed ahead and just behind him dropped that far since the draft so it would be fair to assume he would too. You could argue recency bias but I am just pointing out how the ranking numbers have fared for his peers per Wheeler.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Just working from what happened on Wheelers list. Players listed ahead and just behind him dropped that far since the draft so it would be fair to assume he would too. You could argue recency bias but I am just pointing out how the ranking numbers have fared for his peers per Wheeler.

Wheeler's list is the one that got nearly universally trashed both here and on the Athletic, right?

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't see why so many people tried to gang up on the person who pointed out a ridiculous statement.

Comparing Seider to Dahlin or saying he'll be as good as any young defenseman in the league is ridiculous. I don't even think anyone besides this person believes he has the potential to be one of the best defensemen in the league.

I think most agree that he likely projects as a top pairing defensemen, and could turn into a 1D, depending on how he develops, but there's a gap between being a 1D and being as good as the best 1D's. There's a gap between being as good as Larkin and being as good as McDavid. If someone said a player like Zegras or Cozens projects as good as Larkin, I think most would have no problem with that. If someone said they project as good as McDavid, I think that'd be considered ridiculous.

And while Dahlin might not yet be as good as McDavid, consider his position among defensemen. Many considered him generational prior to being drafted, and he's lived up to his draft position so far. He's not far off the absolute most valuable assets in the league, and certainly has the potential to be one of the best players in the league. Saying Seider will be that is ridiculous, and I don't think anyone whose ganging up on the person who pointed it out even disagrees with that.

Dahlin is amazing in many ways and I still believe he's got a generational career ahead of him. I would not put Seider in quite that tier of young prospect.

HOWEVER, on the defensive side of the puck Seider has to be considered something very special right now. I hesitate to say 'generational' because that's overused, but who was the last 18-19 year old who played like this defensively? I don't see how it's ridiculous to compare him to any young D in the league, because quite frankly he's probably better defensively TODAY than most young D in the NHL.

The first clip is a D-man with supposedly limited upside offensively, driving the puck to the net twice on the same shift and still being back defensively in time to stop a counterattack. The second clip is an 18 year old 3 times making attackers look absolutely foolish.

 

[Frobbo]

Dahlin is amazing in many ways and I still believe he's got a generational career ahead of him. I would not put Seider in quite that tier of young prospect.

HOWEVER, on the defensive side of the puck Seider has to be considered something very special right now. I hesitate to say 'generational' because that's overused, but who was the last 18-19 year old who played like this defensively? I don't see how it's ridiculous to compare him to any young D in the league, because quite frankly he's probably better defensively TODAY than most young D in the NHL.

The first clip is a D-man with supposedly limited upside offensively, driving the puck to the net twice on the same shift and still being back defensively in time to stop a counterattack. The second clip is an 18 year old 3 times making attackers look absolutely foolish.

Wow, definitely an AHL god. All I saw is a guy taking advantage of open ice, not beating anybody. But if RW fans think he is the messiah...

 

[Pavels Dog]

Wow, definitely an AHL god. All I saw is a guy taking advantage of open ice, not beating anybody. But if RW fans think he is the messiah...

There’s a 30+ minute compilation of his AHL season on youtube if you’re interested in getting a better look. Yeah we are excited about a guy able to play 25+ minutes per game as an 18 year old in a men’s league. Crazy huh?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Wow, definitely an AHL god. All I saw is a guy taking advantage of open ice, not beating anybody. But if RW fans think he is the messiah...

You gonna provide anything constructive or make a valid argument at this point, or just continue shutting down any evidence brought to you?

Because it's reaching the point of nothing better than a poor attempt at trolling...

 

[nbwingsfan]

Dahlin is amazing in many ways and I still believe he's got a generational career ahead of him. I would not put Seider in quite that tier of young prospect.

HOWEVER, on the defensive side of the puck Seider has to be considered something very special right now. I hesitate to say 'generational' because that's overused, but who was the last 18-19 year old who played like this defensively? I don't see how it's ridiculous to compare him to any young D in the league, because quite frankly he's probably better defensively TODAY than most young D in the NHL.

The first clip is a D-man with supposedly limited upside offensively, driving the puck to the net twice on the same shift and still being back defensively in time to stop a counterattack. The second clip is an 18 year old 3 times making attackers look absolutely foolish.

Stop overhyping him youre making us Wings fans look bad. Hes a VERY good prospect but you're really over selling it right now

 

[Dotter]

I think Moritz Seider is going to be a very unique and important impact player. I think the sky is the limit, but I am not going to declare him on Dahlin's level right now.

Clearly he has proven to be a solid pick at #6.

 

[newfy]

Dahlin is amazing in many ways and I still believe he's got a generational career ahead of him. I would not put Seider in quite that tier of young prospect.

HOWEVER, on the defensive side of the puck Seider has to be considered something very special right now. I hesitate to say 'generational' because that's overused, but who was the last 18-19 year old who played like this defensively? I don't see how it's ridiculous to compare him to any young D in the league, because quite frankly he's probably better defensively TODAY than most young D in the NHL.

The first clip is a D-man with supposedly limited upside offensively, driving the puck to the net twice on the same shift and still being back defensively in time to stop a counterattack. The second clip is an 18 year old 3 times making attackers look absolutely foolish.

I think Seider is the best defensive dman to come into the league in a while, I think hes right there with a guy like Heiskanen defensively, probably better, and I think right now Heiskanen is the best young defensive guy in the league. But theres not a point in mentioning Dahlin while trying to make that point either. Hes not close to Dahlin as a prospect and calling him a defnsive Dahlin is just going to make people take that comparison wrong.

Its fine to say hes the best young dman on the defensive side of the puck in a while and still make your point

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think Seider is the best defensive dman to come into the league in a while, I think hes right there with a guy like Heiskanen defensively, probably better, and I think right now Heiskanen is the best young defensive guy in the league. But theres not a point in mentioning Dahlin while trying to make that point either. Hes not close to Dahlin as a prospect and calling him a defnsive Dahlin is just going to make people take that comparison wrong.

Its fine to say hes the best young dman on the defensive side of the puck in a while and still make your point

... that's exactly what I said. "I would not put Seider in Dahlin's tier" is my way of saying I would not rank Seider on the same level as Dahlin. That's the overall package of the player. There's generational, and there's a tier below that. Dahlin's in one, Seider the other.

Stop overhyping him youre making us Wings fans look bad. Hes a VERY good prospect but you're really over selling it right now

So, let me know which part of my post was overhyping? It's funny how there's never any actual counterarguments? So you don't think he's special defensively for his age? Or is it that watching him actual play is what creates too much hype? Because that I can kinda see..

 

[Slapper]

As a wings fan im just happy to finally have a prospect worth having this argument

 

[raymond23]

Can we go back to nicknames? This thread got real lame

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Can we go back to nicknames? This thread got real lame

Norris Seider is just a fantastic nickname

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Norris Seider is just a fantastic nickname

Us Wings fans are going to petition to have it renamed the Norritz trophy.

 

[Ezekial]

Ending lives, Seider House Rules.

 

[LarKing]

Comparing Seider to Dahlin is silly. Seider will be far better. What a dumb comparison.