RD Moritz Seider (2019, 6th, DET) Part 2

[cjm502]

Watching Seider play I think he has a lot of offensive potential people arent giving him credit for. Hes always active in joining the rush, and has all the tools minus the big shot but I can see him becoming a guy who moves a little deeper in the ozone to get solid wristers through similar to what Brent Burns does but with less frequency.

 

[ManByng]

I think Seider, similar to Broberg, raised some eyebrows where he was taken but I feel that both teams will not be sorry they took either player because both are looking pretty good as things are today!!

 

[drw02]

Thats the point..I only see Detroit posters hyping him up as a potential #1D. There's obvious bias there, so the real best objective sources are Pronman and Wheeler.

Apparently you're not aware Pronman had Seider ranked as the 6th best prospect in the league in his last rankings in January.

Pronman: 2019-20 midseason NHL prospects ranking

Hockeywriters has him listed as the 7th best prospect

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-top-100-prospects-ranking/

couldn't find an overall ranking on Dobber but they list Detroit as the 7th best farm system with Seider the #1 prospect so they must be pretty high on him

2020-21 DobberProspects Organizational Rankings: 8-4

 

[nbwingsfan]

Pronman has Seider projected similarly.....IIRC Button did as well. Those guys lack credibility as well? Where exactly is this #1D narrative coming from? The only people I see pushing it are Detroit fans on these boards.

Probably from being the #1D on his AHL team in his first year in NA as an 18 year old?

 

[newfy]

Pronman has Seider projected similarly.....IIRC Button did as well. Those guys lack credibility as well? Where exactly is this #1D narrative coming from? The only people I see pushing it are Detroit fans on these boards.

Saying he'll compare to Dahlin is definitely over the top but you trying to push that Wheelers ranking with him out of the top 20 is also bad. Pronman doesnt have him ranked similarly at all. Prior to the draft this year he had him ranked as the 6th overall prospect in the league and projects him as a top pairing dman. Thats a guy who prioritises flashy high end skill over Seiders style of game as well, and doesnt usually change his tune quickly after the draft (where he had Seider quite a bit lower).

 

[Pavels Dog]

You're suggesting Pronman and Wheeler haven't watched Seider? What exactly is your argument? And you're questioning their credibility and pointing to biased Wings posters because that makes sense?



I'm not disputing he can be a top pair guy. But there's a huge distinction between a top pair dman and the poster who I quoted, who projected him to be "dominant when opponant has puck all 200' , then also a very positive force on offense because of smarts ,

in addition to "an elite star player that will be right there with anybody including dahlin"

That's ridiculous and you know it.

NHL prospect rankings: Wheeler's top 50, post-2020 draft edition

Wheeler's latest analysis of Seider point to a lack of upside as some of the elite prospects as well as a lack of offensive ceiling. That's what is limiting him. How exactly is that wrong?

You just can't take Pronman or Wheeler as gospel. The question isn't "have they watched him", it's how much they've watched him.
Seider's offensive upside is not clear, but he's not bad enough offensively that it's likely to limit him in his role.
Raw offensive prowess is rarely the thing that ultimately keeps someone from being a legit #1D. Suter isn't the most dynamic offensive player. Doughty has his moments but has cracked 50 points only 3 times in his career. Seth Jones averaged 32 minutes per game in the playoffs but it was hardly because they relied on him to go coast-to-coast and snipe top corners.
Defensive ability, mobility, first pass, ability to join a rush, ability to hold the puck in the offensive zone etc. these kind of factors are more important. And when a player is good at those things, he will get icetime and the points will almost be a byproduct of icetime rather than the points being what drives the icetime.

These things are part of why Seider played 50% of every game Germany played at the WJC and would have played more if humanly possible. It's part of why he quickly became a top pairing guy in the AHL at 18 years of age. It's part of why he's immediately top-pairing in the SHL.

 

[hockeeyyy]

You just can't take Pronman or Wheeler as gospel. The question isn't "have they watched him", it's how much they've watched him.
Seider's offensive upside is not clear, but he's not bad enough offensively that it's likely to limit him in his role.
Raw offensive prowess is rarely the thing that ultimately keeps someone from being a legit #1D. Suter isn't the most dynamic offensive player. Doughty has his moments but has cracked 50 points only 3 times in his career. Seth Jones averaged 32 minutes per game in the playoffs but it was hardly because they relied on him to go coast-to-coast and snipe top corners.
Defensive ability, mobility, first pass, ability to join a rush, ability to hold the puck in the offensive zone etc. these kind of factors are more important. And when a player is good at those things, he will get icetime and the points will almost be a byproduct of icetime rather than the points being what drives the icetime.

These things are part of why Seider played 50% of every game Germany played at the WJC and would have played more if humanly possible. It's part of why he quickly became a top pairing guy in the AHL at 18 years of age. It's part of why he's immediately top-pairing in the SHL.

Really solid post. Hoepfully Moritz’s development pushes the puck into the other end more often than not. He seems like a bit of a unicorn.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

The person you're specifically quoting has a habit of going to the extreme with everything...

... The general opinion among Wings fans has been that if Seider can continue to develop his offensive game, he can be a #1D. Obviously, that's a big if.

Please stop sending me Wheeler's list. It's shit.

Give me something else to go on then besides the opinion of Red Wings fans, please.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Probably from being the #1D on his AHL team in his first year in NA as an 18 year old?

This doesn't really prove anything....other players have done this in the past. Anyways this is getting off track. The guy I originally quoted posted a pretty definitive statement concluding Seider would be as good as Dahlin...why not jump over him? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board.

 

[Fatass]

Where else have I done this? I literally came into this thread, saw Seider being compared to Dahlin, and called it out for its stupidity, rightfully so.

Different kinds of players aren’t they? Dahlin is more a cerebral player, who slows the game down. Seider is more the guy who wants to speed things up by aggressively carrying the puck, and being more physically involved.

 

[nbwingsfan]

This doesn't really prove anything....other players have done this in the past. Anyways this is getting off track. The guy I originally quoted posted a pretty definitive statement concluding Seider would be as good as Dahlin...why not jump over him? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board.

Others have pointed his comment was done. Just like stating Seider doesnt have #1D potential.

Youre right that other players have been #1D in the AHL (or Europe) at 18. Theyve almost all turned out to be amazing D.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Where else have I done this? I literally came into this thread, saw Seider being compared to Dahlin, and called it out for its stupidity, rightfully so.

Raymond:

Raymond is nowhere near the prospect Marner was. Marner was the 4th oa pick in a draft with two of the best prospects in decades and is a 1oa candidate in a normal draft. Marner is one of the greatest jr players of all time. Stylistically maybe. But absolutely not even remotely close talent wise.

Even stylistically, does Raymond PK?

Veleno:

I don't know about from the beginning, but certainly after last season. He was picked at the end of round 1 because scouts saw really limited upside at the NHL level. He beat up on kids in his *fifth* Q season and the hype built that the guy was a steal, top 6 fwd, etc. This is kinda who he always was. Limited offensive potential and should be a 3rd/4th line center at the NHL level.

Zadina:

Zadina, Veleno and Seider way too high. None of those guys are elite.

 

[wingfan]

I think Seider, similar to Broberg, raised some eyebrows where he was taken but I feel that both teams will not be sorry they took either player because both are looking pretty good as things are today!!

What? Broberg was the consensus #2 dman in the draft and basically a lock to go in the later half of the top ten? I don’t think that pick raised any eyebrows?

 

[GreytWun]

Leaf fans worried about Seider lol. Don’t blame them he will be destroying them for years.

 

[LarKing]

Raymond:



Veleno:



Zadina:

Im pretty sure murder is an infract-able offense.

 

[Reddwit]

This doesn't really prove anything....other players have done this in the past. Anyways this is getting off track. The guy I originally quoted posted a pretty definitive statement concluding Seider would be as good as Dahlin...why not jump over him? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board.

This isn’t getting off track at all. You just got an answer you didn’t like. You asked where the evidence was that people other than Wings fans thought Seider had #1 potential - and even said you were going off Pronman’s opinion - only to find out that Pronman has changed his own tune on Seider and considers him a top 10 prospect these days.

 

[kabidjan18]

People have really dumb definitions for a #1 defenseman. Like take Ryan Pulock for example. He's a #1 defenseman. And yet, I think most fans on most teams would say "he'd be like the #2 on my team." With the irony being that he is the #1 on a very good team that made it to the second round last season and then made it to the Conference Final this season. And his position as the #1 defenseman on that team isn't even particularly disputable. There are defensemen in the league who have done less winning in their careers than he has in 2 years and yet few people would dispute that they're #1 defensemen.

People come up with all these criteria which a #1 Dman is supposed to have, like does he lack offensive potential, does he not have smooth enough hands, is his transition passing not good enough, what is his skating in all the different directions like...And it's not that none of that matters, but it's frequently missing the forest for the trees. Can you put him out there for 25 minutes a game and he won't let the puck in the back of the net? If yes he's a #1 defenseman.

Seider is young. He's imperfect. He's still growing as a player. But from what I've seen, he absolutely eats minutes. If he can learn to do that at the next level, he's a #1D.

 

[19 for president]

People have really dumb definitions for a #1 defenseman. Like take Ryan Pulock for example. He's a #1 defenseman. And yet, I think most fans on most teams would say "he'd be like the #2 on my team." With the irony being that he is the #1 on a very good team that made it to the second round last season and then made it to the Conference Final this season. And his position as the #1 defenseman on that team isn't even particularly disputable. There are defensemen in the league who have done less winning in their careers than he has in 2 years and yet few people would dispute that they're #1 defensemen.

Thank you! I feel like somewhere people forgot that #1 dman does not mean franchise player or superstar. I feel like people often forget how many teams there are in this league and how much that dwindles talent.

As for Seider I definitely think he has top 30 potential in the league. He very much projects as a minute munching/pk demon that can make a good outlet pass. He may not be a big point getter but he won't hinder your top line either. Seider has yet to show he has the shot to warrant PP time, but lets see what happens. I honestly think he'd easily be a top 3 dman on the Wings right now with only maybe Hronek and DK in front of him. Mind you out D blows but still lol.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

Love his game. No matter how you want to classify his potential, his game seems very translatable to the NHL. I’d be shocked if he didn’t become a great top 4 D.

 

[newfy]

Give me something else to go on then besides the opinion of Red Wings fans, please.

You got 3 or 4 links four posts above this one calling him a top 6 or 7 prospect in the league guy. Try reading

 

[wetcoast]

Thats the point..I only see Detroit posters hyping him up as a potential #1D. There's obvious bias there, so the real best objective sources are Pronman and Wheeler.

I'm not a Detroit poster and I can see #1 Dman in Seider easily.

 

[Stive Morgan]

Cannot wait to see this guy in the NHL

 

[Tetsuo]

I'm not a Detroit poster and I can see #1 Dman in Seider easily.

Exactly. Echoing other posters, he doesn't have to be Hedman to be a #1. If he's playing upwards of 25 minutes a night at the NHL level, and handling a ton of PK time and platooning on the PP, he's a #1 on most teams. He may not become the creme de la creme #1 like Hedman, but is expecting HOF level play from players all that realistic? Larkin, for instance, is a 1C, but just a middle of the road 1C all things considered. Ideally he plays at 2C and becomes a nightmare matchup for opposing teams top players, but that requires getting a top 10 C to take over the 1C duties. If the Blues could win with ROR as their 1C, its possible, with the right roster to win with Larkin-esque 1C. If Seider continues this trend, he'll be an average 1D or elite 2D once he's done developing, which is absolutely the kind of building block that a team needs for Cup contention.

 

[bossram]

People have really dumb definitions for a #1 defenseman. Like take Ryan Pulock for example. He's a #1 defenseman. And yet, I think most fans on most teams would say "he'd be like the #2 on my team." With the irony being that he is the #1 on a very good team that made it to the second round last season and then made it to the Conference Final this season. And his position as the #1 defenseman on that team isn't even particularly disputable. There are defensemen in the league who have done less winning in their careers than he has in 2 years and yet few people would dispute that they're #1 defensemen.

People come up with all these criteria which a #1 Dman is supposed to have, like does he lack offensive potential, does he not have smooth enough hands, is his transition passing not good enough, what is his skating in all the different directions like...And it's not that none of that matters, but it's frequently missing the forest for the trees. Can you put him out there for 25 minutes a game and he won't let the puck in the back of the net? If yes he's a #1 defenseman.

Seider is young. He's imperfect. He's still growing as a player. But from what I've seen, he absolutely eats minutes. If he can learn to do that at the next level, he's a #1D.

Is he one of the 31 best defensemen? If yes, then the player should be considered a 1D.

If Seider becomes one of the 31 (soon to be 32) best defensemen in the league, then he'll be a 1D.

 

[Blame the referee]

Habs fan here...Seider will be a number one defenseman, and top 20 nhl dman!!