Tribute Rasmus Sandin Discussion Thread

[Stephen]

Another extreme example would be Norris Trophy winning Mark Giordano, who was basically a random third pairing defenseman for the first few years of his career until his mid 20s.

 

[biotk]

So, you are just going to ignore Rielly and Josi? The two defencemen I just asked you to specifically look at. Great response.

Josi did not play under 18 minutes his rookie year. His average ice time was 4th on Nashville FFS.

I have already said that developmentally it was not a good situation for Rielly, but the only other option was to send him back to Junior. Still Rielly played #3 minutes 3 games out of his first 10, and plenty of games during the season - especially games in which the Leafs were behind by a couple he was getting first pairing minutes. When the Leafs had a small lead Rielly rarely played. Maybe that bad development strategy is a contributing factor in Rielly still being poor defensively. But it was not in any way, shape or form a similar situation.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Keep Reilly he bleeds blue and white. Our players love him as a teammate and he’s having a down year so why trade low?

I think dermott could switch sides(not sure what the stats say) but it’s a good problem to have in the summer.

Reilly holl
Muzzin dermott
Sandin lilly

He is having issues on the left side, not sure how he could go to the right and improve on that.
Also, I would not put Dermott in the Top 4 ahead of Sandin. Im very sure either next game or upcoming soon, that Sandin will be logging more ice time than Dermott. U don't want to ruin Dermotts confidence with that move but its clear Sandin is thinking 3-4 plays ahead. Sandin imo, has more upside than Reilly and Reilly will want 7 million probably. Reilly has always been overrated in this city, he hesitates to make decisions. Im pretty sure most people don't notice it. On the PP, its very evident he overthinks and hesitates to pass off to the half wall or reluctant to shoot from the point and is in no way deceptive in his decisions. Barrie and Sandin are already better than Reilly on the PP, based on quick decisions and deception. If Muzzin is resigned, Reilly is going to be moved imo. Sandin and Muzzin are Top 4, Dermott appears to be a good 3rd pairing d-man. Dermott for me is somewhat lazy, lacks focus at times, his reads are wild at times. I think Dermott hasn't grown much at all as a player in the first 3 yrs, commits similar mistakes to his rookie year and I think his ceiling appears limited based on his hockey sense. But Dermott is an excellent fit on the 3rd pair. Sandin would be under utilized on a 3rd pair.

 

[93LEAFS]

Josi did not play under 18 minutes his rookie year. His average ice time was 4th on Nashville FFS.

I have already said that developmentally it was not a good situation for Rielly, but the only other option was to send him back to Junior. Still Rielly played #3 minutes 3 games out of his first 10, and plenty of games during the season - especially games in which the Leafs were behind by a couple he was getting first pairing minutes. When the Leafs had a small lead Rielly rarely played. Maybe that bad development strategy is a contributing factor in Rielly still being poor defensively. But it was not in any way, shape or form a similar situation.

Fine, he played 18 minutes roughly against easy comp. Whereas Gill and Klein took tougher usage. Rielly also played easy comp.

It may not be as extreme as Sandin, but those are typical sheltered bottom pairing usage. Being under 19 minutes a game, while also getting among the easiest QOC TOI%. You seem to imply that top players can't develop that way. I mean, Ryan Ellis's usage was even more extreme than Rielly's, he seems to be fine defensively now.

Rielly is pretty clearly of an example of a guy who got primarily sheltered 3rd pairing usage, who turned into a top 30 defender. Whether he got slightly more ice-time in his first 9 games is insignificant. He also got healthy scratched a few times.

Look at Giordano's usage to start. The absolutism of some around here is ridiculous.

 

[biotk]

The absolutism of some around here is ridiculous.

That the occasional player overcame a team developing them poorly doesn't mean that current players should be developed even more poorly. We have already seen a complete lack of development from Dermott, and we know that the overwhelming number of top D were not developed this way, but who cares, a team with shitty defense should keep Sandin playing 14 minutes a game because Rielly, who is still poor at defense, only played 17:37 minutes a game as a rookie.

 

[93LEAFS]

That the occasional player overcame a team developing them poorly doesn't mean that current players should be developed even more poorly. We have already seen a complete lack of development from Dermott, and we know that the overwhelming number of top D were not developed this way, but who cares, a team with ****ty defense should keep Sandin playing 14 minutes a game because Rielly, who is still poor at defense, only played 17:37 minutes a game as a rookie.

Except we haven't played him under 15 minutes game since his recent call-up. It's also been only 4 games. You seem to be holding his usage under-Babcock against Keefe.

The point I responded to was which defencemen have been developed into the top 30 or even top 60 defenders while playing sheltered bottom-pairing minutes. Rielly clearly fits all of the criteria above. You have claimed he doesn't and is now referring to an argument based on developmental strategy, not what the actual question asked. We have numerous examples who had bottom pairing competition, with either clearly bottom-pairing minutes of close to. I mean, seriously, look at Josi's first 20 games, and then look at his usage after the trade deadline. I'm sure if there is an injury next year, or if Sandin plays at a high-level he will be moved up the line-up.

 

[biotk]

Except we haven't played him under 15 minutes game since his recent call-up. It's also been only 4 games. You seem to be holding his usage under-Babcock against Keefe.

As I said earlier - I don't care. The start of this discussion - which has always been about development from the start - although now you think that is being newly added - was someone advocating that the Leafs rotate Sandin between # 6/7 next year. Then we had countless nonsensical posts from you, who still doesn't understand the actual question asked.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Sandin should definitely be playing more, especially with Rielly out. It's good for the team as he's one of our best defenseman and it's good for his development. 16 minutes is a lot better but still not enough

 

[LeafsNation75]

Sandin should definitely be playing more, especially with Rielly out. It's good for the team as he's one of our best defenseman and it's good for his development. 16 minutes is a lot better but still not enough

Did Sandin get any time on the power play because if the Leafs are able to get 2 or 3 a game and they were for at least 2:00 minutes wouldn't that get his minutes up?

 

[93LEAFS]

As I said earlier - I don't care. The start of this discussion - which has always been about development from the start - although now you think that is being newly added - was someone advocating that the Leafs rotate Sandin between # 6/7 next year. Then we had countless nonsensical posts from you, who still doesn't understand the actual question asked.

I responded to one post in response to the question given. I gave an answer. You took issue with that. I never made any statements about ideal development. Turns out there were multiple people who have developed from the situation I was responding to.

Non-sensical? I literally was responding and refuting a claim. Turns out most of my examples applied. You took a ridiculous approach to what qualified as 3rd pairing usage. You denied Rielly was even used as a sheltered 3rd pairing defender when pretty much all evidence supports that he was. Then, when it is evident, you claim you don't care, and it doesn't apply because it isn't ideal. Great arguing........ You seem dogmatically locked into an opinion, which is hilarious because you compared people in the Liljegren thread yesterday of being like cult members. You can't accept there are good defencemen who got sheltered on the 3rd pairing. Is it ideal? Probably not. But, that doesn't change the fact multiple current top-pairing defenders saw significant time being used as 3rd pairing defenders. You picked an argument with me. Your main argument originally was pointing to one-off games, and not collective averages of there seasons. Your literal argument for Rielly not being a sheltered 3rd pairing defender was 13 games over 20 minutes, when he also got healthy scratched multiple times that year, and averaged below 18 minutes his first 10 games.

I don't care what you were originally discussing. Because that isn't what I responded to. I responded to a question-posing which defenders were sheltered on the 3rd pairing as rookies and became top 30 or top 60 defenders. That's all.

Just looking, even under your stricter guidelines. Rielly, Hamilton, Ellis, Yandle, Spurgeon, Dumba, Chabot, etc all saw usage like that.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Sandin should definitely be playing more, especially with Rielly out. It's good for the team as he's one of our best defenseman and it's good for his development. 16 minutes is a lot better but still not enough

But who does he play more minutes over though? Muzzin and Dermott are some pretty good LHD competition for his minutes.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

But who does he play more minutes over though? Muzzin and Dermott are some pretty good LHD competition for his minutes.

I think they should be fairly close to each other, maybe Muzzin being slightly ahead. There shouldn't be a big gap between Dermott and Sandin though. I wouldn't mind seeing Sandin get more PP time and throwing him out more in the offensive zone with different partners to get him some more minutes

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I think they should be fairly close to each other, maybe Muzzin being slightly ahead. There shouldn't be a big gap between Dermott and Sandin though. I wouldn't mind seeing Sandin get more PP time and throwing him out more in the offensive zone with different partners to get him some more minutes

I agree he needs to play more but IMO it's tough. Muzzin is our #1D and should be played 22 mins. Dermott has already shown he can excel on the 3rd pair over a long period of time, but has looked meh in his 2nd pairing role so far. Sandin has also excelled in his 3rd pairing minutes so far. IMO the best option is to play Ceci less minutes and have Dermott play some shifts on the right to get his and Sandins minutes up.

Muzzin (22) - Holl (22)
Dermott (19) - Barrie (20)
Sandin (19) - Ceci (16)

 

[93LEAFS]

I agree he needs to play more but IMO it's tough. Muzzin is our #1D and should be played 22 mins. Dermott has already shown he can excel on the 3rd pair over a long period of time, but has looked meh in his 2nd pairing role so far. Sandin has also excelled in his 3rd pairing minutes so far. IMO the best option is to play Ceci less minutes and have Dermott play some shifts on the right to get his and Sandins minutes up.

Muzzin (22) - Holl (22)
Dermott (19) - Barrie (20)
Sandin (19) - Ceci (16)

Usage per game is always going to be heavily dictated by special teams. More PKs is going to push Ceci's minutes up, more PP's is going to push Barrie's up (especially if we aren't converting).

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Sandin has never been the worst Leaf on the ice so far. I would say he has been more often than not,the best Leaf on the ice. Gettin' into it now...this lad is gonna be a fixture on the Leaf blue line for a long time. He is unfazed by all the 'hoopla' that others imagine he needs to overcome.He instinctively knows stuff some guys never learn.His decision making is top notch.

Once he learns the league(gets used to playing against the same guys)he will be even better. Getting to play with Matthews/Marner/Willy/JT and be a part of the offensive machine is gonna make him an all-star! Already like his composure/decisions on the PP better than Barrie or Morgan.Gonna be fun to watch him develop.

I understand where you are at. If you only watch the Leafs then you are only seeing a partial of Sandin like 10 games worth. But quite a few of us have watched him past 2 years game in game out. I think his upside is huge like I said 2 years ago he has #1 NHL potential in him. I have seen him be the best player on the ice for 2 rounds of playoff games and then royally suck in round 3 against a much faster team. He can turn in a phone booth, has great hands, amazing smarts and a top notch hockey IQ. He also looks amazing against bigger slower teams. He can withstand huge hits and stay upright. But he can also look a little slow against big fast teams and give up the puck huge many times a game with his outlet passes. Watch the checkers playoff games and you will see it for yourself. His straight line speed is not the best. He needs to work on this issue to become a top end 1st liner. And this is an issue that is the hardest to fix for a pro player. So before anointing him or Lily to top 4 roles do a little due diligence and give him some time and space to develop. These kids need a couple years to learn the NHL game. Neither of these kids is Bobby Orr who can come into the league and be the league's best player on day 1.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That the occasional player overcame a team developing them poorly doesn't mean that current players should be developed even more poorly. We have already seen a complete lack of development from Dermott, and we know that the overwhelming number of top D were not developed this way, but who cares, a team with ****ty defense should keep Sandin playing 14 minutes a game because Rielly, who is still poor at defense, only played 17:37 minutes a game as a rookie.

"complete lack of development from Dermott," This is really very very harsh comment. He just turned 23. He had a severe injury last year that cost him 6 months. He unfortunately is learning. and he has not been given the right VET partner to learn from either. Barrie is the wrong guy to teach Dermy. Some of this is because we have had a terrible defense mix with Leafs past few years. Playing with Marty is horrible too. Give him a partner like Petro or Weber and his development would improve dramatically. We as a team have really not thought through a good development path for our D men. For many reasons.

Do you realize that Dermy is a significantly faster skater than Sandin? Do you realize he has a much harder shot than Sandin? Do you realize he plays with significantly more edge/physical than Sandin? Before you guys start to throw kids away you should really think through what you are saying.

 

[supsens]

That the occasional player overcame a team developing them poorly doesn't mean that current players should be developed even more poorly. We have already seen a complete lack of development from Dermott, and we know that the overwhelming number of top D were not developed this way, but who cares, a team with ****ty defense should keep Sandin playing 14 minutes a game because Rielly, who is still poor at defense, only played 17:37 minutes a game as a rookie.

He is playing over 15 minutes a game and as long as he keeps on playing well he will get more, the Leafs are sitting out of the playoffs the last thing your coach and GM want it to take big risks with unproven rookies and blow the playoffs by a couple points.
It’s not poor development it’s fairly normal and it seems to be working out just fine for him.

 

[biotk]

"complete lack of development from Dermott," This is really very very harsh comment.

Don't care if it's harsh. I care if its true. Dermott hasn't improved. Dermott spent almost 2 years being ridiculously sheltered by Babcock and it shows. In his second season (despite his QoC getting bumped up to 28.02 from 27.92 the season before) of the 209 D who played at least 500 minutes at 5v5 he was 206th in QoC (remember with 31 teams and 6 D per team each game that is 186 total so he was in #7 territory). Even this season despite being moved up the lineup as of late his QoC for the season is below Sandin.

Do you realize that Dermy is a significantly faster skater than Sandin?

Yup.

Do you realize he has a much harder shot than Sandin?

Yup.

Do you realize he plays with significantly more edge/physical than Sandin?

Yup. And despite that Sandin has already surpassed him. Hopefully the Leafs don't screw up Sandin's development.

Before you guys start to throw kids away you should really think through what you are saying.

Not throwing him away. As I said last year. Dermott a good #5 and is very unlikely to become more than a poor #4. So the third pairing is the best place for him.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Don't care if it's harsh. I care if its true. Dermott hasn't improved. Dermott spent almost 2 years being ridiculously sheltered by Babcock and it shows. In his second season (despite his QoC getting bumped up to 28.02 from 27.92 the season before) of the 209 D who played at least 500 minutes at 5v5 he was 206th in QoC (remember with 31 teams and 6 D per team each game that is 186 total so he was in #7 territory). Even this season despite being moved up the lineup as of late his QoC for the season is below Sandin.



Yup.



Yup.



Yup. And despite that Sandin has already surpassed him. Hopefully the Leafs don't screw up Sandin's development.



Not throwing him away. As I said last year. Dermott a good #5 and is very unlikely to become more than a poor #4. So the third pairing is the best place for him.

Stats only measure a player today based on lots of variables .... some guys get it later Gio ... some guys get it through proper vet partnering Chiarot ... some guys just take longer to figure out the NHL etc etc. To label Dermy a poor 4 or good 5 is very shortsighted. No one on here and no one on Leafs knows where he will end up. It is way too early to know. and that applies to Sandin and Lily too.

 

[biotk]

He is playing over 15 minutes a game and as long as he keeps on playing well he will get more, the Leafs are sitting out of the playoffs the last thing your coach and GM want it to take big risks with unproven rookies and blow the playoffs by a couple points.

Playing your best players is what gets you to the playoffs. The team has won 2 of its last 7 games - both wins came from early leads that Sandin got them.

 

[biotk]

Stats only measure a player today based on lots of variables .... some guys get it later Gio ... some guys get it through proper vet partnering Chiarot ... some guys just take longer to figure out the NHL etc etc. To label Dermy a poor 4 or good 5 is very shortsighted. No one on here and no one on Leafs knows where he will end up. It is way too early to know. and that applies to Sandin and Lily too.

Yes, no one knows - which is why I said "unlikely". However, that people like you have to continually rely on extreme outliers like Gio shows that you don't have a real argument. Oh....maybe Bracco will turn into Martin St. Louis....

 

[supsens]

Playing your best players is what gets you to the playoffs. The team has won 2 of its last 7 games - both wins came from early leads that Sandin got them.

Lol ya=here you go unproven rookie your our best player because...no reason go shut down Crosby we will see if that was a good decision after it’s made.
That’s just not smart or how things are done. He is proving he can play without killing the team, next they will try him in the big role. Just because he looks good and you like him does not mean he gets a free lunch with millions of dollars and a rookie coach and GM’s neck on the line

 

[biotk]

Lol ya=here you go unproven rookie your our best player because...no reason go shut down Crosby we will see if that was a good decision after it’s made

Yes, because there is nothing between getting an average of under 14 minutes a game and being asked to shut down Crosby.

 

[supsens]

Yes, because there is nothing between getting an average of under 14 minutes a game and being asked to shut down Crosby.

They have not played him under 15 minutes since they called him up, any guess what the next step would be? Or do you think one random extra shift means he is being developed properly?
Teams in a playoff battle do not call up some rookie and play him 20 minutes a night just for fun. It’s bad news for him and the team if he can’t handle it.
He is proving he can make it so let him....He could be the greatest player to walk the face of the earth but they are still going to ease him in and make sure it’s best for everyone.
He could turn out being the number 1 dman from here on out but that still doesn’t mean they just throw the kid to the dogs mid season. The fans and media eat people alive in Toronto, the other players destroy guys that can’t hack it and it takes a few games to adjust.
He looks good and it’s going well for everyone involved

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Yes, no one knows - which is why I said "unlikely". However, that people like you have to continually rely on extreme outliers like Gio shows that you don't have a real argument. Oh....maybe Bracco will turn into Martin St. Louis....

I am not arguing at all. All I said to label any of our young defense including Sandin, Lily and Dermy to any kind of potential level pairing ranking is extremely short sighted. Lily could be our best. Dermy our 2nd best. and Sandin may fall off the face of the earth. or any combination thereof. Personally I love all 3. But maybe it is being older and playing and seeing things develop over the years there are no sure things on defense. Even sure things with loads of skill miss --- Morin, McBean, Reinhart, Murray, Hickey etc etc. It is a bit of a crap shoot. We would be extremely lucky if 1 of these 3 guys turns into a true #1.