Tribute Rasmus Sandin Discussion Thread

[ACC1224]

I believe he said if the Leafs go looking for a top 4 D the other team would be asking for Sandin. He didn't say they should trade Sandin for a top 4 D if I heard it correctly.

Seemed pretty clear what he said, you are correct.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Seems the interpretation is what was stupid.
He definitely didn't say they 'should trade Sandin'.

He suggested that teams will be asking for Sandin implying that he would be the piece to move, bobo shut it down saying him liljegren and Robertson are off the table

 

[93LEAFS]

Try it the other way around.

Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman? I honestly can't think of anyone in the top-30 that fits this criteria, probably top-60 as well.

It's like trying to tutor a student to be ready for a 4th year university math final by making them practice their times tables 8 hours a day until they're "ready".

Rielly? Seth Jones? Erik Karlsson got over 20 minutes a game (barely), but zone-usage shaded heavily in O-zone starts for a 20 minute D-man, Brent Burns rotated between forward and D his first 3 years. Dougie Hamilton is another. Shea Weber was constantly under 20 minutes his first 3 years.

I can find tons of examples of 19-year-old D-men who became clear top pairing D-men who played under 20 minutes a game as rookies.

 

[93LEAFS]

He suggested that teams will be asking for Sandin implying that he would be the piece to move, bobo shut it down saying him liljegren and Robertson are off the table

No, he said he would be what teams would ask for. I don't remember him saying anything about the Leafs wanting to or should make that move. And to be honest, these things are fairly scripted. It seems like something set-up to have Bob then say that Sandin, Liljegren and Robertson are off the table. There is certain info they want to get across and it is pre-planned. Its not coaches corner where they can go wildly off-script.

 

[7even]

January 28 2020 = June 2021
10 games = 140 games + playoffs.

You're better than this.

Colorado made a similar choice (moving Barrie with 1 year) because they were confident in Makar - who was significantly less proven, with limited cap pressure, and no expansion draft pressure

I think we're saying the same thing.

You are wrong on one count though: my posting standards are incredibly low.

 

[4thline]

I think we're saying the same thing.

You are wrong on one count though: my posting standards are incredibly low.

Impossible, avatar taste = posting standards

 

[biotk]

The post you are responding to asked: "Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman?"

None of he D you mentioned did.

Rielly?

Rielly's first 10 games averaged 17:51. Sandin has averaged 13:43. Sandin hasn't topped 16:13 in a game. Rielly played more than 20 minutes 13 times.

Seth Jones?

Jones spent half the year as a #1. He played an average of almost 26 minutes a game for the first 15 games of the season. Had some off-ice issues later in the season.

Erik Karlsson got over 20 minutes a game (barely), but zone-usage shaded heavily in O-zone starts for a 20 minute D-man

His ice was heavily ramped up towards the end of the season and he averaged almost 26 minutes a game. He was basically a #1D by game 40.

Brent Burns rotated between forward and D his first 3 years.

So his ice-time can't really be measured.

Dougie Hamilton is another.

Again - not a sheltered third-pairing D for his first 80+ games. He played more than 23 minutes in his second ever game. A 2-1 win over Winnipeg. Younger than Sandin is.

Shea Weber was constantly under 20 minutes his first 3 years.

After his first handful of games he was over 19 minutes a games - frequently going well over 20 minutes a game - even in his 28 game rookie season. Sandin is averaging 13:43 a game. After Weber's first 5 games he played fewer than 14 minutes 3 times over the next 3 years (generally due to an injury).

I can find tons of examples of 19-year-old D-men who became clear top pairing D-men who played under 20 minutes a game as rookies.

Which is not the same thing at all as a D playing 80+ games in a sheltered third pairing role - which was the question you pretended to answer.

 

[93LEAFS]

The post you are responding to asked: "Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman?"

None of he D you mentioned did.



Rielly's first 10 games averaged 17:51. Sandin has averaged 13:43. Sandin hasn't topped 16:13 in a game. Rielly played more than 20 minutes 13 times.



Jones spent half the year as a #1. He played an average of almost 26 minutes a game for the first 15 games of the season. Had some off-ice issues later in the season.




His ice was heavily ramped up towards the end of the season and he averaged almost 26 minutes a game. He was basically a #1D by game 40.



So his ice-time can't really be measured.



Again - not a sheltered third-pairing D for his first 80+ games. He played more than 23 minutes in his second ever game. A 2-1 win over Winnipeg. Younger than Sandin is.



After his first handful of games he was over 19 minutes a games - frequently going well over 20 minutes a game - even in his 28 game rookie season. Sandin is averaging 13:43 a game. After Weber's first 5 games he played fewer than 14 minutes 3 times over the next 3 years (generally due to an injury).



Which is not the same thing at all as a D playing 80+ games in a sheltered third pairing role - which was the question you pretended to answer.

So, we are going to look at one-off games, rather than a collective over full-seasons games?

All those guys collectively got 3rd pairing usage. I mean, we really going to draw firm conclusions on Sandin's usage when he's played under 2 different coaches spread out over 2 different stints? Dougie Hamilton has rarely played over 20 minutes a game on average over his entire career. Weber played under 20 minutes a game his first 3 seasons in the league. Look at someone like Josi's first 20 games in the league.

 

[Eye Test]

No chance Sandin is a bottom pairing D-man. He is already better than Dermott. So look at the left side now.

Reilly
Muzzin
Sandin
Dermott

My point is if Muzzin signs with the Leafs, Morgan Reilly will be traded in the summer or at the draft. Sandin has to be in the Top 4 next year at the latest, he is too darn smart to not be.

Keep Reilly he bleeds blue and white. Our players love him as a teammate and he’s having a down year so why trade low?

I think dermott could switch sides(not sure what the stats say) but it’s a good problem to have in the summer.

Reilly holl
Muzzin dermott
Sandin lilly

 

[Stephen]

Try it the other way around.

Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman? I honestly can't think of anyone in the top-30 that fits this criteria, probably top-60 as well.

It's like trying to tutor a student to be ready for a 4th year university math final by making them practice their times tables 8 hours a day until they're "ready".

Alex Pietrangelo himself was slowly brought along by the Blues and people thought he was a bust because guys like Schenn and Doughty were enjoying big minutes straight out of the draft.

 

[Menzinger]

I wonder if the Leafs will ever play him on the right? Hes played that side in the past

 

[Stephen]

I wonder if the Leafs will ever play him on the right? Hes played that side in the past

I have a feeling that when Sandin is in his prime he's going to be skating right up the middle of the ice in complete command of the transition game a la Kaberle.

 

[biotk]

So, we are going to look at one-off games, rather than a collective over full-seasons games?

All those guys collectively got 3rd pairing usage. I mean, we really going to draw firm conclusions on Sandin's usage when he's played under 2 different coaches spread out over 2 different stints? Dougie Hamilton has rarely played over 20 minutes a game on average over his entire career. Weber played under 20 minutes a game his first 3 seasons in the league. Look at someone like Josi's first 20 games in the league.

Again this has nothing at all to do with the post you were responding to.

I responded to a post which wanted to do a rotation next season of having Sandin and Liljegren shunted between the third pairing and being either a #7 or scratched.

My response was that they would be better off either sending them down or trading them, which is absolutely true because no team has ever managed to develop top D by deploying them in such a stupid fashion - and no team ever will.

Another poster asked "Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman?"

You responding by list a whole bunch of D, none of which met that criteria. None.

Oh gee, Weber played his first three seasons averaging only 19 minutes of non-sheltered playing time. He played 28 games his season. His second season he was in the top-4 by the second half of the season. He was third in ice time in the playoffs. The next season, after getting injured 2 minutes into his first game and then being eased back into the lineup over the period of 10 or 12 games weeks later he was clearly a top-4 D with top-4 ice time. He finished 17 in the Norris vote for f***s sake.

 

[93LEAFS]

Again this has nothing at all to do with the post you were responding to.

I responded to a post which wanted to do a rotation next season of having Sandin and Liljegren shunted between the third pairing and being either a #7 or scratched.

My response was that they would be better off either sending them down or trading them, which is absolutely true because no team has ever managed to develop top D by deploying them in such a stupid fashion - and no team ever will.

Another poster asked "Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman?"

You responding by list a whole bunch of D, none of which met that criteria. None.

Oh gee, Weber played his first three seasons averaging only 19 minutes of non-sheltered playing time. He played 28 games his season. His second season he was in the top-4 by the second half of the season. He was third in ice time in the playoffs. The next season, after getting injured 2 minutes into his first game and then being eased back into the lineup over the period of 10 or 12 games weeks later he was clearly a top-4 D with top-4 ice time. He finished 17 in the Norris vote for ****s sake.

So you take a full year of sheltered time as a every single game below 18 minutes? I take that as 3rd pairing usage over an entire season. Whcih everyone I pointed to essentially got. Is Trevor Moore not a bottom 6 player because he got brief top 6 usages? You are applying a ridiculous cut-off level.

All met the criteria of averaging 3rd pairing usage over an entire season. Which all did.

I mean seriously, did you watch Rielly's rookie season? He got healthy scratched and played over 20 minutes 12 of 73 games. That sure as hell is 3rd pairing usage over an entire year.

 

[biotk]

So you take a full year of sheltered time as a every single game below 18 minutes? I take that as 3rd pairing usage over an entire season.

No I take a year of sheltered third pairing usage as a year of sheltered third pairing usage.

Whcih everyone I pointed to essentially got.

They didn't.

All met the criteria of averaging 3rd pairing usage over an entire season.

They absolutely didn't. I don't know if reading comprehension is normally this poor for you, but there shouldn't a person alive who would think that Erik Karlsson, who played 60 NHL games in his rookie season, and played the most minutes (on either team) for probably 20 of his last 25 games of the season as being someone who "started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman." He had a shaky transition from Europe to North America, gained his bearings and then earned his way into his role - and the team rewarded his play.

Other D you mentioned played top-4 minutes when the team was behind, and were relegated to the third pairing when the team was protecting the lead. Some had their minutes expanded significantly or diminished significantly during the season based on their play (or off-ice issues) - ie they earned their minutes or they didn't get them.

None spent a large chunk of time playing under 14 minutes a game on average - sheltered third pairing, period, with under 30 seconds of special teams time a game. That is ok as a way to either get used to the NHL, or appropriate deployment for a 3rd-pairing D with no upside. It is a complete waste of development for anyone else (Rielly's 1st year deployment was not the same at all, but it was not good for his development either - however, the Leafs' only other option for him was going back to junior).

Separate from the pure development standpoint, Sandin has earned significantly more time - on a team where the D-core has underperformed badly this year. He deserves far better than to play for a fanbase who thinks that he should be playing under 15 minutes a game this year and next. The Dermott development plan has been a complete failure. A D who was improving leaps and bounds each month on the Marlies hasn't improved at all on the Leafs in 2 years.

 

[NikoEhlers]

If we play Sandin for the rest of season, do we have to protect him in the 21-22 Seattle expansion? Or is he excempt automatically, if we just decide to wait to give him a new contract until Seattle picks. I found this:

"All first- and second-year NHL players, and all unsigned draft choices, will be exempt from selection (and will not be counted toward protection limits."

Would he then be an unsigned draft choice? Excuse me for being a bit confused by the language used. I'm not sure if this at all factors in to any decisions made on him sticking around or not. Just wanted to hear how the rules work.

Looks like a very promising player, hope he can take a step or two forward if he stays up.

 

[93LEAFS]

No I take a year of sheltered third pairing usage as a year of sheltered third pairing usage.



They didn't.



They absolutely didn't. I don't know if reading comprehension is normally this poor for you, but there shouldn't a person alive who would think that Erik Karlsson, who played 60 NHL games in his rookie season, and played the most minutes (on either team) for probably 20 of his last 25 games of the season as being someone who "started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman." He had a shaky transition from Europe to North America, gained his bearings and then earned his way into his role - and the team rewarded his play.

Other D you mentioned played top-4 minutes when the team was behind, and were relegated to the third pairing when the team was protecting the lead. Some had their minutes expanded significantly or diminished significantly during the season based on their play (or off-ice issues) - ie they earned their minutes or they didn't get them.

None spent a large chunk of time playing under 14 minutes a game on average - sheltered third pairing, period, with under 30 seconds of special teams time a game. That is ok as a way to either get used to the NHL, or appropriate deployment for a 3rd-pairing D with no upside. It is a complete waste of development for anyone else (Rielly's 1st year deployment was not the same at all, but it was not good for his development either - however, the Leafs' only other option for him was going back to junior).

Separate from the pure development standpoint, Sandin has earned significantly more time - on a team where the D-core has underperformed badly this year. He deserves far better than to play for a fanbase who thinks that he should be playing under 15 minutes a game this year and next. The Dermott development plan has been a complete failure. A D who was improving leaps and bounds each month on the Marlies hasn't improved at all on the Leafs in 2 years.

No, you are literally are stretching what 3rd pairing usage means by being intentionally misleading. My reading comprehension is fine. All of those players averaged under 20 minutes a game. That is essentially 3rd pairing usage. You keep on saying they have to get 3rd pairing usage every game, instead of looking at the totality of the situation. Josi and Rielly both got very limited games over 20 minutes, and for such short stretches that to argue they weren't 3rd pairing D-men as rookies is so disingenuous, it boarders on ridiculous. When someone says a player is getting 3rd pairing usage, it doesn't mean they play every single game under 20 minutes, outside of your warped view of proving a point.

I'm not saying what Sandin deserves or doesn't. If he plays well, he'll get an opportunity. But, most young D-men play 3rd pairing minutes. If you think Rielly didn't get 3rd pairing minutes in his first year you are so heavily stretching what 3rd pairing minutes are to perceived as being right, you are not even worth arguing with. Sandin hasn't played under 15 minutes once with Keefe.

 

[supermann_98]

If we play Sandin for the rest of season, do we have to protect him in the 21-22 Seattle expansion? Or is he excempt automatically, if we just decide to wait to give him a new contract until Seattle picks. I found this:

"All first- and second-year NHL players, and all unsigned draft choices, will be exempt from selection (and will not be counted toward protection limits."

Would he then be an unsigned draft choice? Excuse me for being a bit confused by the language used. I'm not sure if this at all factors in to any decisions made on him sticking around or not. Just wanted to hear how the rules work.

Looks like a very promising player, hope he can take a step or two forward if he stays up.

Pretty sure last year if he or Liljegren played even a single game in the NHL they would have to be protected, but making the league this year they are exempt from the expansion draft.

I think we're gonna lose a good young forward to the expansion draft either way, as we have too many to protect. No way Seattle gets Vegas lucky where teams are dropping 1sts and prospects to take certain players instead of others. Vegas made out like bandits during that expansion draft.

 

[biotk]

No, you are literally are stretching what 3rd pairing usage means by being intentionally misleading. My reading comprehension is fine. All of those players averaged under 20 minutes a game. That is essentially 3rd pairing usage.

There are 94 D this year averaging 20 or more minutes a game you dope. That is 3 per team on average. Vegas and LA apparently only have two D each who are not third pairing D. Your position is embarrassing.

There were only 93 D last year who averaged 20 or more minutes a game. Among the ways you can actually estimate the ice-time barrier between bottom pairing and top-4 - instead of just saying something stupid like....duh 20 mintues - it would give you a cut off of anywhere from 18:04 to 18:54 average ice time.

Toronto is a team that has its two top pairing playing a lot of minutes. Their third pairing is extremely sheltered both with low time and played in sheltered situations. Other teams don't do that. It is bizarre that this needs to be said.

You keep on saying they have to get 3rd pairing usage every game

I haven't said that at all, but you have shown over and over again that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[93LEAFS]

There are 94 D this year averaging 20 or more minutes a game you dope. That is 3 per team on average. Vegas and LA apparently only have two D each who are not third pairing D. Your position is embarrassing.

There were only 93 D last year who averaged 20 or more minutes a game. Among the ways you can actually estimate the ice-time barrier between bottom pairing and top-4 - instead of just saying something stupid like....duh 20 mintues - it would give you a cut off of anywhere from 18:04 to 18:54 average ice time.

Toronto is a team that has its two top pairing playing a lot of minutes. Their third pairing is extremely sheltered both with low time and played in sheltered situations. Other teams don't do that. It is bizarre that this needs to be said.



I haven't said that at all, but you have shown over and over again that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Your defense against Rielly and Josi is that they got a very short percentage of games over 20 minutes. That is what you repeatedly point to. How are Josi and Rielly not getting 3rd pairing usage even by your standards? Jones continually got 3rd pairing usage. So basically, under 20 minutes means you are likely a rotational bottom pairing defenceman at a minimum.

You said none of those guys got consistent 3rd pairing usage. Rielly and Josi clearly did. Even by the numbers you present. Yet, in your opinion they didn't because of very brief stints. You have no ability to admit you are wrong on anything. Please explain to me how Rielly and Josi didn't get primarily 3rd pairing usage, without saying well they played 10 games where they got 20 minutes. Those 10 to 13 games aren't representative when they are mixed in over a 70 or so game sample. Any for of average (mean, median, or mode), would indicate they were 3rd pairing D-men.

 

[hector morrison]

So Poulin said the Leafs should trade Sandin for a top 4 D. That pretty much sums up Poulin

Seriously? I don't like the guy(Poulin) much,but I didn't realize he was mentally challenged.

* never mind,should have read rest of posts verifying that he didn't say that...still don't like him!

 

[hector morrison]

I think you do a lot of other things before you trade a Morgan Reilly.

Depends on the return.I haven't liked his play this year. Some will use that 'nagging injury ' as an excuse,but I didn't like his decision making.If he doesn't bounce back to Norris contender caliber D man,then the Leafs should entertain offers.

 

[hector morrison]

Yeah you are bang on here but don't be so quick to make him the #1 and don't be so quick to write off Dermy. It could be another 3-5 years before Sandin is a true #1. and Dermy although he has been going through a learning patch here can really skate and plays with an edge. Also Dermy has played most of his life on the right side.
We still need a big tough and quick defensive defender for playoffs and maybe next year. We are close. All I'm saying is don't be too hasty with defensemen. Sure Sandin played great last night which is great. But it is 1 game. And next game he could be worst guy on ice. Again this is normal.
Rielly XXX
Muzz Holl
Sandin Dermy

Sandin has never been the worst Leaf on the ice so far. I would say he has been more often than not,the best Leaf on the ice. Gettin' into it now...this lad is gonna be a fixture on the Leaf blue line for a long time. He is unfazed by all the 'hoopla' that others imagine he needs to overcome.He instinctively knows stuff some guys never learn.His decision making is top notch.

Once he learns the league(gets used to playing against the same guys)he will be even better. Getting to play with Matthews/Marner/Willy/JT and be a part of the offensive machine is gonna make him an all-star! Already like his composure/decisions on the PP better than Barrie or Morgan.Gonna be fun to watch him develop.

 

[biotk]

Your defense against Rielly and Josi is that they got a very short percentage of games over 20 minutes. That is what you repeatedly point to. How are Josi and Rielly not getting 3rd pairing usage even by your standards? Jones continually got 3rd pairing usage. So basically, under 20 minutes means you are likely a rotational bottom pairing defenceman at a minimum.

You said none of those guys got consistent 3rd pairing usage. Rielly and Josi clearly did. Even by the numbers you present. Yet, in your opinion they didn't because of very brief stints. You have no ability to admit you are wrong on anything. Please explain to me how Rielly and Josi didn't get primarily 3rd pairing usage, without saying well they played 10 games where they got 20 minutes. Those 10 to 13 games aren't representative when they are mixed in over a 70 or so game sample. Any for of average (mean, median, or mode), would indicate they were 3rd pairing D-men.

Ok - this the last time I responding to your stupid argument.

The question you responded to was "Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman?"

First of all the person specifically wrote "playing a full year or more" for a reason and the person specifically wrote "sheltered" for a reason.

Everyone with basic common sense should understand the difference between sheltered bottom pairing and bottom pairing. Everyone with basic common sense should understand that there is a difference between playing for a full year or more as a bottom pairing D and playing for half a season as a sheltered D and half a season as a top-4.

If, for instance, Sandin was to play 40 games this season in the NHL and for the first 20 he averaged 14 minutes a game playing in a sheltered third pairing role and for the next 20 he averaged playing 18 minutes a game playing in a non-sheltered role, I wouldn't say that he spent the whole time playing in a sheltered third pairing role - because, for starters it wouldn't be true. Apparently you would.

And if, for instance, Sandin was to play 40 games this season in the NHL and for the first 20 he averaged 14 minutes a game playing in a sheltered third pairing role and for the next 20 he averaged playing 22 minutes a game playing in the top-4, I wouldn't say that he spent the whole time playing in a sheltered third pairing role - because, for starters it wouldn't be true. Apparently you would.

You are still referring to Jones' rookie season as one in which he was on the third pairing because he only averaged 19:37 a game (3rd most among Nashville D).

He played 77 games. Of those 77 games:
6 games he played the most minutes among Nash D.
12 games he played #2 minutes
26 games he played #3 minutes
12 games he played #4 minutes
12 games he played #5 minutes
9 games he played #6 minutes.

So 18 games he played 1st pairing minutes, 38 he played second pairing and 21 he played 3rd pairing minutes (5 of the games where he played #6 minutes were 2 games he was injured, and the 3 games upon the return from an injury).

In 10 games Sandin has played the 5th or 6th most minutes each game.

Can you see a difference in there? (and if you want to claim that it was probably the same for Jones during his first 10 games - Jones played top pairing minutes 7 of those games, and second pairing minutes for the other 3). But you think Jones is an example of a sheltered third pairing D in his rookie season.

 

[93LEAFS]

Ok - this the last time I responding to your stupid argument.

The question you responded to was "Can someone name me a top pairing defenseman that started his career by playing a full year or more as a sheltered bottom pairing defenseman?"

First of all the person specifically wrote "playing a full year or more" for a reason and the person specifically wrote "sheltered" for a reason.

Everyone with basic common sense should understand the difference between sheltered bottom pairing and bottom pairing. Everyone with basic common sense should understand that there is a difference between playing for a full year or more as a bottom pairing D and playing for half a season as a sheltered D and half a season as a top-4.

If, for instance, Sandin was to play 40 games this season in the NHL and for the first 20 he averaged 14 minutes a game playing in a sheltered third pairing role and for the next 20 he averaged playing 18 minutes a game playing in a non-sheltered role, I wouldn't say that he spent the whole time playing in a sheltered third pairing role - because, for starters it wouldn't be true. Apparently you would.

And if, for instance, Sandin was to play 40 games this season in the NHL and for the first 20 he averaged 14 minutes a game playing in a sheltered third pairing role and for the next 20 he averaged playing 22 minutes a game playing in the top-4, I wouldn't say that he spent the whole time playing in a sheltered third pairing role - because, for starters it wouldn't be true. Apparently you would.

You are still referring to Jones' rookie season as one in which he was on the third pairing because he only averaged 19:37 a game (3rd most among Nashville D).

He played 77 games. Of those 77 games:
6 games he played the most minutes among Nash D.
12 games he played #2 minutes
26 games he played #3 minutes
12 games he played #4 minutes
12 games he played #5 minutes
9 games he played #6 minutes.

So 18 games he played 1st pairing minutes, 38 he played second pairing and 21 he played 3rd pairing minutes (5 of the games where he played #6 minutes were 2 games he was injured, and the 3 games upon the return from an injury).

In 10 games Sandin has played the 5th or 6th most minutes each game.

Can you see a difference in there? (and if you want to claim that it was probably the same for Jones during his first 10 games - Jones played top pairing minutes 7 of those games, and second pairing minutes for the other 3). But you think Jones is an example of a sheltered third pairing D in his rookie season.

So, you are just going to ignore Rielly and Josi? The two defencemen I just asked you to specifically look at. Great response.

You said it didn't apply to any of them. It clearly applied to Rielly and Josi. Both played less than 18 minutes a game (the threshold you mentioned). You are just stretching the definition. Almost all 3rd pairings are sheltered match-up wise. Rielly for example has the easiest QOC by TOI in his rookie year. He averaged less than 18 minutes a game. That seems like a sheltered 3rd pairing. He clearly developed into a top 30 defenceman. Josi was in the bottom pairing in regard to QOC by TOI too, while also getting less than 18 minutes a game on average. Ryan Ellis is a top 60, and on the fringe of being a top 30 defender, look at his first 3 years usage wise.