Player Discussion Rasmus Dahlin Part 4 - D (1st Overall, 2018, Frölunda HC, SHL)

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Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
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How good a player is relative to his peers is just the starting point. Then other things are factored in like...... how many RFA years? How many UFA years bought? How long is the deal overall? Age can play a role as well if they're young enough to have potential upside rolled into their deal.

These things play a big role, yet you keep ignoring them. But they're why Seth Jones has the same cap hit as Fox. It's also why Werenski has the 3rd highest cap hit and not Makar who is 9th.

In your analysis I guess the market froze back in 2021. Lucky for the owners NHL contracts will be the only part of the economy not hit by inflation. Then there is the impact of the "flat" cap era being over. Something that had an impacted on those 2021 deals. Not sure it was a ton but it wasn't zero.

Models are only as good as their inputs.

1) Does that model, parse RFA yrs vs UFA yrs, the amount of UFA yrs bought the length of the deal, etc.? This is why I brought up Werenski/McAvoy in my previous post. They signed for 6yrs instead of 8. Its what worked best for both sides. But there is no way they're not somewhere between 10-11mil if they had signed a 8yr deal. Which makes Dahlin at 8yrs 10mil per look good.

2) How do they factor in NHL production? For example, Dahlin has played in the NHL for all 5 of his post draft seasons. Whereas Fox only played his D+4 and D+5 season before signing (College for the first 3). Dahlin's D+4/D+5 seasons have slightly better production than Fox on a much worse team. But would Dahlin effectively be punished and have his overall production in the model lowered due to his first 3 years? It shouldn't and won't in a real negotiation, but it may in the model depending on how it was set up.

3) What is the sample this model even uses? They're not many dmen to use in this category.


As I said previously, he may take less per year on a shorter deal or just take a team friendly deal like the 9-9.5mil you suggest. But Dahlin has a fairly straightforward argument for a 8x10 deal.
1) The models definitely take in consideration the UFA year premium.

2) How exactly they factor in NHL production is the secret sauce generally and not something that is openly shared. The best you can do is look at how the models have been with predicting contracts and what players they generally miss high and what they generally miss low.

With AFP for instance, they had Dahlin's AAV slightly less than they projected for Aho. And then Aho got slightly more than AFP projected.

3) Again, only the people who create the models know how they come up with the projections. Dahlin is unique. But, I do not believe that because he is unique that immediately means the number goes to the top 3 in the NHL.
 

Deep Blue Metallic

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Mar 5, 2021
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As I said previously, he may take less per year on a shorter deal or just take a team friendly deal like the 9-9.5mil you suggest. But Dahlin has a fairly straightforward argument for a 8x10 deal.
I'd be fine with 8x$10M.

Bit of an overpayment, but only $500K beyond the $9.5M I think hits the sweet spot. That difference, for the player who will be the highest paid Sabre for the foreseeable future, doesn't even pay for a league-minimum contract.
 

AaronPines

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Jun 19, 2007
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I'd be fine with 8x$10M.

Bit of an overpayment, but only $500K beyond the $9.5M I think hits the sweet spot. That difference, for the player who will be the highest paid Sabre for the foreseeable future, doesn't even pay for a league-minimum contract.
I sort of wonder if he and his agent might be looking more of Matthews route, something like 3-4 yrs/9.5M with a goal of cashing in with multiple high AAV contracts in his prime, especially most are assuming a higher cap in a few years.

It's a red flag for me that many of us (myself is included there) feel like 8x10 will eventually look like a really good deal for the Sabres. We'll see though, if it's a new era. Historically NHL players have been reluctant to bet on themselves and a rising cap.
 

HOOats

born Ruffian
Nov 19, 2007
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I sort of wonder if he and his agent might be looking more of Matthews route, something like 3-4 yrs/9.5M with a goal of cashing in with multiple high AAV contracts in his prime, especially most are assuming a higher cap in a few years.

It's a red flag for me that many of us (myself is included there) feel like 8x10 will eventually look like a really good deal for the Sabres. We'll see though, if it's a new era. Historically NHL players have been reluctant to bet on themselves and a rising cap.
If he's looking to maximize his earnings, this is what he'll try for. I hope it isn't his tactic, since it's the least team-friendly.

This is also why I think 8 x $10m is in fact team-friendly. Say he insists on 4 x $9.5m (11.4%) now, then gets 4 x $11m (11.6%) if the cap is $95m in 2027. That's an average of $10.25m over eight years, except he can vanish after the first four years if things sour here. I would expect the team to have to pay up significantly to avoid that potentiality.

Also, I'm not sure why we expect Dahlin's representation to fall for the "oh he'd be the 3rd highest-paid D and he's only the 8th best D" line when the two most pertinent graphs are both about to shoot through the roof - Dahlin's scoring and the salary cap. Two years after signing an 8 x $10m, that could easily be reversed where he's the 3rd best and 8th highest-paid D. Five years after signing, he could be the best D in the league and the 12th highest-paid. Nothing about that says player friendly imo.
It'd be cool if he took the Mackinnon approach and signed a 6 year 8.5 contract
To me, anything less than 8 years is no good. It's almost impossible to attract players of 26's caliber to Buffalo. Once they're here and seemingly happy, don't let them leave.
 

La Cosa Nostra

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Jun 25, 2009
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If Dahlin plays out the last year of his deal, puts up 85+ points he is not signing an extension and will sign his QO and hold ALL the cards. Now I'm not saying he would definitely be gone if he went that route but he would take no discount. Why take a discount to continue to miss the playoffs?

If Dahlin was locked long term then the patient route is "OK" (not really but whatever ) but we MUST make it this year. Dahlin is a competitor and is sick of losing. And after seeing his teammate lead his team to a CUP while he is at home every spring watching the playoffs may make him leave.

Matthews just got an insane amount for just 4 years. Dahlin needs to get paid asap. His # is going up every week he is unsigned.
 

Fezzy126

Rebuilding...
May 10, 2017
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12% of the cap (~$10M AAV) has always been my magic number.

If Dahlin signs for less than that I'll be elated because I get to enjoy a phenomenal talent for the next 7-8 years for what should be below market value for the majority of his contract.

If he signs for anything more than that I'll be elated because I'll get to watch an elite talent and the best defenseman in franchise history for the next 7-8 years and I really don't give a shit about the money because I don't write the checks, the cap will go up, and teams have proven that cap isn't something you need to seriously worry about anyway since there will always be tank teams that will bail your ass out of cap jail.
 

Fjordy

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Jun 20, 2018
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It'd be cool if he took the Mackinnon approach and signed a 6 year 8.5 contract
Maybe he even sign 7 x 7? :laugh:

I don't know why he would sign 8.5 for 6 years, because it looks weird when players comparable to him or even those who are worse than Dahlin signed for 9+, and there are several who have 10+.
 

debaser66

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Exactly. Name the guy you'd trade for Dahlin straight up in this list. For me it's only Makar.

View attachment 738005
I wouldnt do it cause I like Dahlins physical element and size, plus he is a leader. he probably wont reach Makars offensive potential but if everything goes right he will be pretty close after this upcoming season. he is also a year younger.
I also strongly believe if Makar had been a Sabres and Ras with the Avs the conversation would be completely reversed.
Its easier to put up these numbers with a contender instead of the bottom dweller the Sabres have been all but last season.
 

Guy Tetreault

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Dec 28, 2021
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I wouldnt do it cause I like Dahlins physical element and size, plus he is a leader. he probably wont reach Makars offensive potential but if everything goes right he will be pretty close after this upcoming season. he is also a year younger.
I also strongly believe if Makar had been a Sabres and Ras with the Avs the conversation would be completely reversed.
Its easier to put up these numbers with a contender instead of the bottom dweller the Sabres have been all but last season.
Yes! Buffalo was a crap. Colorado has win the stanley cup.
IMG_0896.jpeg
 

Fjordy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
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I wouldnt do it cause I like Dahlins physical element and size, plus he is a leader. he probably wont reach Makars offensive potential but if everything goes right he will be pretty close after this upcoming season. he is also a year younger.
I also strongly believe if Makar had been a Sabres and Ras with the Avs the conversation would be completely reversed.
Its easier to put up these numbers with a contender instead of the bottom dweller the Sabres have been all but last season.
Well...

DahlinvsMakar.jpg
 
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HogtownSabresfan

Registered User
Jan 13, 2010
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I’ll worry about Dahlin not being signed when we get into November. Some big dmen contracts have been signed after camp or even after the season got going.

Chabot — Sept 19th
Josi ——— Oct 29th
McAvoy —-Oct 15th
Fox———— Nov 1st
Q.Hughes - Oct 1st

Not saying you specifically, but love how the goalposts keep shifting. I'm sure a four-year deal will be viewed as okay soon by others.

Maybe he even sign 7 x 7? :laugh:

I don't know why he would sign 8.5 for 6 years, because it looks weird when players comparable to him or even those who are worse than Dahlin signed for 9+, and there are several who have 10+.
He wouldn't
 
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