Value of: Rantanen - what would you give?

[HuGort]

i Mean the Avs think he should be moved so what do you give for him?

He wants to test UFA. Why not wait til then instead of giving up the moon

 

[anezthes]

I would consider a package around Zegras/Terry + Zellweger for a signed Rantanen.

No.

 

[JoeSakic13]

My right nut.

No chance I’d give up Lefty tho.

 

[RomanianLeafs]

Why would Colorado move him what am I missing? Love that guy

 

[LOFIN]

Why would Colorado move him what am I missing? Love that guy

Salary cap is a thing

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

So they would give him up for cheap if someone would offer a lot? Like Montreal could have him for a 2nd round pick, but only if we offered Demidov + Hutson?

Is this like a King Solomon situation where they are willing to let him go free to a good home, but only if the new team shows how much they value him?

I meant McFarland would give rants for very cheap if someone offered mooning him (or georgiev)

 

[crowi]

I meant McFarland would give rants for very cheap if someone offered mooning him (or georgiev)

Oh yea, that really clears it up..

Avs are in a place of uncertainty with Landeskog and Nik. It's very unlikely they can improve as a team trading Rantanen.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

Find a comparable option at a recent deadline. Maybe teams dont have the resources to give it, but there hasnt been a player of his caliber at a deadline ever that I can think of. Hossa in 08? Even then Rantanen now is way above Hossa then.

Hossa was far superior to him Rantanen plays in a much higher scoring era

 

[dirtydanglez]

very few teams could pull off a deal. nj is in a great position to land rantanen if he was available.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Shesterkin

 

[RomanianLeafs]

Salary cap is a thing

I know but for a guy like Rantanen u make room

 

[Ducks DVM]

Rantanen is coming off back to back 100+ point season, has been very good in the playoffs (and won the Cup), and is generally considered one of the best wingers in the game today. If the Avs decide to do something stupid and trade him, why would they use either of these two guys as a comparable, when Horvat was a 2C and Meier only has a single career season where he's even come close to being PPG?

Because he’s still a rental who wants to explore UFA. A non-playoff team isn’t going to give you that, because it’ll derail their rebuild if(when) he walks, and a playoff team isn’t going to remove anything important for a Cup run, or remove too much futures if he walks. Rentals simply don’t pull much of a return if the player isn’t going to re-sign.

 

[benfranklin]

Hossa was far superior to him Rantanen plays in a much higher scoring era

I'd love to see someone really break this down comparing scoring eras, teams, line-mates, etc.

Rantanen was 6th and 7th in overall scoring the past two seasons, albeit playing on a great Avs team.
Hossa was 7th and 44th in the season before he was traded on a Thrashers team that won their division and then his split season with ATL/PIT.

Without overanalyzing and getting into defensive play, I find it hard to believe "far superior" is there. At best, you can argue on par, likely conceding Rantanen is the superior player.

But also Hossa returned two middle 6 players and essentially two 1sts back then. If this is the only comparable high value trade deadline piece we have to look at, then two middle 6 roster players and two firsts is the start of negotiations for Rantanen.

 

[Intangir]

Rantanen is UFA, so there are many GMs that would comfortably give him 13-14M$ over multiple years.

As far as trade assets if he re-signs in Colorado, well, he'd be worth a true blue-chip prospect++.

And that's not something you can say for many players.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Because he’s still a rental who wants to explore UFA. A non-playoff team isn’t going to give you that, because it’ll derail their rebuild if(when) he walks, and a playoff team isn’t going to remove anything important for a Cup run, or remove too much futures if he walks. Rentals simply don’t pull much of a return if the player isn’t going to re-sign.

Any chance you have a direct quote from someone directly involved in the negotiations indicating he "wants to explore UFA"? Because everything I've read suggests that he wants to stay in Colorado, and there is no expectation from either side that he'll reach UFA.

Or should I just make the same flawed assumption you make to try to justify him being worth less than Meier?

 

[sensfan4lifee]

I'd love to see someone really break this down comparing scoring eras, teams, line-mates, etc.

Rantanen was 6th and 7th in overall scoring the past two seasons, albeit playing on a great Avs team.
Hossa was 7th and 44th in the season before he was traded on a Thrashers team that won their division and then his split season with ATL/PIT.

Without overanalyzing and getting into defensive play, I find it hard to believe "far superior" is there. At best, you can argue on par, likely conceding Rantanen is the superior player.

But also Hossa returned two middle 6 players and essentially two 1sts back then. If this is the only comparable high value trade deadline piece we have to look at, then two middle 6 roster players and two firsts is the start of negotiations for Rantanen.

I disagree with you on this very much, Hossa was putting up offense like Rantanen with superior two way play, Hossa was just better.

 

[benfranklin]

I disagree with you on this very much, Hossa was putting up offense like Rantanen with superior two way play, Hossa was just better.

I quite literally looked up his stats the 2 years before his deadline which is what we are comparing right? Similar age in that 27-28yo range. 44th in the league in scoring, -14 that year at .92 ppg. The Thrashers won their division in 06-07 then fell off hard in 07-08 so not the same as two high scoring Avs teams in recent years, but finished the season on an amazing Pens team obviously.

I dont see the argument offensively for being better at all, let alone "far superior". We can go down the Makar/MacKinnon is carrying him argument as well as hm being on par with Kovalchuk compared to being carried by him. Defensively, we can go down 200ft game, which isnt as quantifiable.

Update: So the 44th in scoring would be compared to this season for Rantanen. 11th in 05-06 and 7th in 06-07 for Hossa compared to 8th in each of Rantanen's seasons . So i guess, if were comparing apples to oranges, Rantanen falls off hard this year compared to the last two seasons and at the deadline, the Avs move him like the Thrashers did Hossa.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Any chance you have a direct quote from someone directly involved in the negotiations indicating he "wants to explore UFA"? Because everything I've read suggests that he wants to stay in Colorado, and there is no expectation from either side that he'll reach UFA.

Or should I just make the same flawed assumption you make to try to justify him being worth less than Meier?

If he wants to re-sign in Colorado, that makes the point that he’s only worth rental prices even more salient. Zero non-playoff teams will offer anything more than future considerations, and no contender ever eviscerates their team and/or farm. Nobody is going to give up a premium for a player they have zero chance of retaining in the cap era. Find the example if you disagree.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

If he wants to re-sign in Colorado, that makes the point that he’s only worth rental prices even more salient. Zero non-playoff teams will offer anything more than future considerations, and no contender ever eviscerates their team and/or farm. Nobody is going to give up a premium for a player they have zero chance of retaining in the cap era. Find the example if you disagree.

But the whole premise of the Avs being forced to move him as a pure rental is predicated on the unsubstantiated claim that he wants to test UFA. If that's not true, then nothing else you said matters in the slightest. If he's not a pure rental, then he'd plausibly sign with any team that acquires him, and he returns a lot more than a Horvat or Meier level return. But, then again, if he's not going UFA, then every example I can find would tell me he's resigning with the Avs. Teams simply don't trade away top 5 players in their primes for futures if they don't need to.

And if I'm Rantanen, I have no problem waiting until the end of the season to sign the contract if it means I might get some extra money depending on how the Landeskog and Nuke situations play out.

 

[Ducks DVM]

But the whole premise of the Avs being forced to move him as a pure rental is predicated on the unsubstantiated claim that he wants to test UFA. If that's not true, then nothing else you said matters in the slightest. If he's not a pure rental, then he'd plausibly sign with any team that acquires him, and he returns a lot more than a Horvat or Meier level return. But, then again, if he's not going UFA, then every example I can find would tell me he's resigning with the Avs. Teams simply don't trade away top 5 players in their primes for futures if they don't need to.

And if I'm Rantanen, I have no problem waiting until the end of the season to sign the contract if it means I might get some extra money depending on how the Landeskog and Nuke situations play out.

Someone asked what he was worth in a trade.

If Colorado knows he’s re-signing there 100%, either he’s not getting traded at all, or he’s ok re-signing in Colorado for only 7 years rather than 8 if they DO trade him, which we will file under “not terribly likely”.

I agree, teams don’t trade those players UNLESS they have been told that the player won’t commit to signing there long term. Which makes all your hypotheticals pointless.

And no, he would NOT plausibly sign with any team who traded for him. If he wants to win, and not just get money, there are easily 12-18 teams he would want no part of. While I cannot say he absolutely wouldn’t re-sign with the Ducks or Sharks, I can very comfortably say he would not re-sign with the Ducks or Sharks. And neither of those teams has any business sending the type of pieces that a signed Rantanen would garner.

 

[Dr Amazing]

Funny the Avs will get Rantanen signed not even worried other fan bases just dreaming.

 

[norrisnick]

Find a comparable option at a recent deadline. Maybe teams dont have the resources to give it, but there hasnt been a player of his caliber at a deadline ever that I can think of. Hossa in 08? Even then Rantanen now is way above Hossa then.

Hossa was 3rd in scoring the four full seasons prior to '07-'08. Rantanen is 4th over the last 4 full seasons.

 

[DanyHeatley]

Norris and Chabot

 

[benfranklin]

Hossa was 3rd in scoring the four full seasons prior to '07-'08. Rantanen is 4th over the last 4 full seasons.

Splitting hairs at this point, but it shows how comparable they really are. Also a big * with those seasons because of the 2005 lockout and the Covid seasons, which is why I chose 2 seasons only to look at for each.

So assuming Rantanen gets graded at this deadline, his production needs to drop off (75 point pace compared to his 105 pt pace) heavily between now and the trade deadline to be comparable to that trade which brought back two middle six players, the 20th overall pick in last years draft and next years 1st. And the Avs would need to fall out of contention or be clear they wont lose Rantanen for nothing to be comparable to the 2007-08 Thrashers.

So which teams can give a little better than that? Not many I assume.

 

[benfranklin]

If he wants to re-sign in Colorado, that makes the point that he’s only worth rental prices even more salient. Zero non-playoff teams will offer anything more than future considerations, and no contender ever eviscerates their team and/or farm. Nobody is going to give up a premium for a player they have zero chance of retaining in the cap era. Find the example if you disagree.

I dont expect you to go through an re-read the whole thread but the only comparable is Marian Hossa in 2008. Returned two middle six players, the 2007 1st round pick (20th overall), and the 2008 1st (ended up being 29th overall). Dupuis also went with Hossa, who was a nothing player at the time, but ended up being more valuable to Pit in the long run.

But, and a huge but, Hossa at that point was on pace for 76 points compared to his previous 100 points. Maybe if he was lighting it up still, the return might have been a little better. Or not. Who knows.

Played for Pit, UFA to Det, UFA to Chicago.

So its possible to trade that much for a pure rental who wont re-sign and they had a Cup run because of it. Hossa was 2nd in scoring behind Sid and Zets that playoff run. You show that to any contending team and I be they make that exact trade this deadline.