Rumor: Rantanen Extension is Close???

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

39 ES points is something 8 or 9 of the Avs forwards could only dream of. They're probably going to ice at least 3 guys going into next season who will struggle to put up 39 ES points in their entire NHL career.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

39 ES points is something 8 or 9 of the Avs forwards could only dream of. They're probably going to ice at least 3 guys going into next season who will struggle to put up 39 ES points in their entire NHL career.

Georgiev, Annunen, and Miner?

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Newhook's production was solid last year. That team really only cares about offense, though. He was also boosted by an on-ice shooting percentage that I'm not sure will be sustainable.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

He didn't ONLY play with those players. He spent 150 minutes with Suzuki and Slafkovsky, too, which is ~20% of his season.

Man, I know I'm struggling lately. But how dows 150 minutes equal 20% of a season? 55 games played multipled by 60 minutes = 3300 minutes. 150 is like 0.045% isn't it? Or did you do your percentage based on TOI rather than games played?

 

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

Georgiev, Annunen, and Miner?

Foudy Kovalenko

 

[EdAVSfan]

Man, I know I'm struggling lately. But how dows 150 minutes equal 20% of a season? 55 games played multipled by 60 minutes = 3300 minutes. 150 is like 0.045% isn't it? Or did you do your percentage based on TOI rather than games played?

Why would you calculate 55 games by 60 minutes????

You would base it on a percentage of Newhooks ice time, not the ice time of a full game of hockey.

If Newhook plays 15ES minutes per game, and plays 55 games, that’s 825 minutes. 150/825 would be 18%.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Why would you calculate 55 games by 60 minutes????

You would base it on a percentage of Newhooks ice time, not the ice time of a full game of hockey.

If Newhook plays 15ES minutes per game, and plays 55 games, that’s 825 minutes. 150/825 would be 18%.

Because I honestly didn't know? I haven't seen seasons broken down this way before. I've only seen the line combo thing really used at Natural Stat Trick's individual game stats where he breks down a graph of the game's timeline and just uses bars graphs to show when each player was on ice. I've never seen any stats generated off this over multiple games much less a full season. I honestly still feel there are potentially too many variables at play to make such a thing really valuable unless they are actually using technology on the players uniforms and technology located at the bench to measure these times.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Because I honestly didn't know? I haven't seen seasons broken down this way before. I've only seen the line combo thing really used at Natural Stat Trick's individual game stats where he breks down a graph of the game's timeline and just uses bars graphs to show when each player was on ice. I've never seen any stats generated off this over multiple games much less a full season. I honestly still feel there are potentially too many variables at play to make such a thing really valuable unless they are actually using technology on the players uniforms and technology located at the bench to measure these times.

That I understand.

No way of really knowing how accurate the ice times and linemates are.
I was simply providing a little detail on the calculation itself. Assuming the numbers are correct, you would simply calculate the time spent with linemates based the players individual Ice time.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

That I understand.

No way of really knowing how accurate the ice times and linemates are.
I was simply providing a little detail on the calculation itself. Assuming the numbers are correct, you would simply calculate the time spent with linemates based the players individual Ice time.

And once I realized that was what was happening on me it finally clicked but then that led to my follow up questions. I think I've got it now though, but as I said, I'm a little fuzzy on how truly accurate or meaningful the stat would be considering the literal hundreds if not thousands of different line combos I'm not sure how many minutes are required to overcome the small sample size arguement.

I at least understand what it's saying though, which I truly appreciate you helping me out with. Also note to self, when trying to figure out what a stat is actually saying it would be a heck of a lot easier to have simply asked that and not also provide a statement showing how dumb I can be and just truly how far off I was. Basically a version of the addage bout never willingly give a person a reason to think less of you. *LOL*

 

[NorthernAvsFan]

Yeah, Pasta is better than Mikko

The grass is always greener.

Pasta has never performed as well as Mikko in the playoffs. I wouldn’t make the trade, personally.

 

[The Abusement Park]

He got pretty fast in his last year here.

Newhooks always been a fast skater.

 

[henchman21]

Newhook was fine last year, but I don't see him sticking at center. On a bad team, sure... he can do the Kerfoot thing. On a good team, he's never going to hold that role.

Newhooks always been a fast skater.

Yup and people associate being fast with being a great skater.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Yup and people associate being fast with being a great skater.

Newhook would blitz Girard in a straight line. But Girards 5x the skater Newhook is.

 

[ANewHope]

Newhook would blitz Girard in a straight line. But Girards 5x the skater Newhook is.

I think that's an exaggeration. Girard is a better skater. Newhook is still a great skater in his own right. I've always maintained it's the reverse of ROR/Staz. Newhook looks less agile/slow at times because of his hockey IQ where ROR played faster because of that. Newhook looked better and much quicker in Montreal where you had less structure and he had less defensive responsibilities. He struggled more with what Bednar wanted from him than he ever did with his skating.

Newhook isn't the elite skater he was billed as but he's in the next tier. He's not Jost. It won't be the reason he's a disappointment if he doesn't succeed in Montreal.

 

[henchman21]

Newhook isn't the elite skater he was billed as but he's in the next tier. He's not Jost. It won't be the reason he's a disappointment if he doesn't succeed in Montreal.

It'll absolutely be the reason he can't hold down a center job on a good team. Newhook is a good skater, just at his size, he needs to be elite to work at center. The only way to overcome that is superhuman IQ (Suzuki is an example). Whether that line of him being a solid to below average 2nd line winger is a disappointment is probably person to person. I'd say compared to his billing it would be, but not compared to where he should have been scouted prior.

I standby that this issue could be seen from a mile away, why some teams absolutely refuse to learn from it is the most baffling thing. It's fine if they aren't elite skaters, but accept it, move them to wing, and develop them there.

 

[jfc64]

I didn't learn much on my master education, exept that 12.5 x 8 is 100.

 

[ANewHope]

It'll absolutely be the reason he can't hold down a center job on a good team. Newhook is a good skater, just at his size, he needs to be elite to work at center. The only way to overcome that is superhuman IQ (Suzuki is an example). Whether that line of him being a solid to below average 2nd line winger is a disappointment is probably person to person. I'd say compared to his billing it would be, but not compared to where he should have been scouted prior.

I standby that this issue could be seen from a mile away, why some teams absolutely refuse to learn from it is the most baffling thing. It's fine if they aren't elite skaters, but accept it, move them to wing, and develop them there.

I think his hockey IQ is what's holding him back at C so far. If that doesn't improve that'll be the reason he doesn't stick. Not his skating IMO. That's why he looks better on the wing and in Montreal so far in his career. When you make the game more simple and ask him to do less he looks way better. He played C better in Montreal because it required less responsibilities. I think his decision making is what ultimately puts him on the wing and what makes him thrive on less structured teams.

Newhook is just the reverse Jost. Jost thinks the game at a high level but has zero tools. Newhook has solid tools but so far in the NHL struggles with decision making. Combine them and you get 2C. He's still young enough where teams will bet on Newhook adjusting. I wouldn't bet on it personally tho. I think he's a flawed top 6 winger.

 

[henchman21]

I think his hockey IQ is what's holding him back at C so far. If that doesn't improve that'll be the reason he doesn't stick. Not his skating IMO. That's why he looks better on the wing and in Montreal so far in his career. When you make the game more simple and ask him to do less he looks way better. He played C better in Montreal because it required less responsibilities. I think his decision making is what ultimately puts him on the wing and what makes him thrive on less structured teams.

Newhook is just the reverse Jost. Jost thinks the game at a high level but has zero tools. Newhook has solid tools but so far in the NHL struggles with decision making. Combine them and you get 2C. He's still young enough where teams will bet on Newhook adjusting. I wouldn't bet on it personally tho. I think he's a flawed top 6 winger.

We're kinda onto semantics... If he had Suzuki's brain, yeah he could be a center. But that level of hockey IQ is an absolute rarity (he has to be a top 5 IQ player). He could be high end, and still not a good enough skater to stick there. He isn't as weak as Jost in that area, but the level of skater that a <6' center has to be in the NHL to be a reliable top 6 center is kinda absurd. They only way around it is with that elite IQ, which very few possess.

The worst skating/IQ combo and under 6' top 6 center in the league is Trocheck... and Trocheck is an elite skater. He may not absolutely fly, but he's near top speed in 2 strides, has amazing edge work, and is super agile. Dude can get up to speed and close or create gaps from nothing. Beyond him you have the Point, Hughes, and Bedard types who are in the very .1% of skaters. Suzuki is a rarity because only a handful of players possess his mind. You could put his or ROR's mind in pretty much any body and it would find a way. That level of IQ just can't be expected of any player though.

The deck is simply stacked against smaller centers. If you're 6'1"+ you can get away with a lot of skating flaws. If you're under 6', you have to be amongst the elite of skaters. Newhook is merely a good skater.

(All the slander against Suzuki's skating though, it is a bit hyperbole. He's definitely not a bad skater... just another good skater. One with absurdly high IQ)

 

[Balthazar]

(All the slander against Suzuki's skating though, it is a bit hyperbole. He's definitely not a bad skater... just another good skater. One with absurdly high IQ)

He's a weird one. Average skater with average shot (but great hands). He's a good 2-way guy who just makes things happen. IMO he's the closest thing to Bergeron in the league and his game will get better as he gets older.

 

[ANewHope]

We're kinda onto semantics... If he had Suzuki's brain, yeah he could be a center. But that level of hockey IQ is an absolute rarity (he has to be a top 5 IQ player). He could be high end, and still not a good enough skater to stick there. He isn't as weak as Jost in that area, but the level of skater that a <6' center has to be in the NHL to be a reliable top 6 center is kinda absurd. They only way around it is with that elite IQ, which very few possess.

The worst skating/IQ combo and under 6' top 6 center in the league is Trocheck... and Trocheck is an elite skater. He may not absolutely fly, but he's near top speed in 2 strides, has amazing edge work, and is super agile. Dude can get up to speed and close or create gaps from nothing. Beyond him you have the Point, Hughes, and Bedard types who are in the very .1% of skaters. Suzuki is a rarity because only a handful of players possess his mind. You could put his or ROR's mind in pretty much any body and it would find a way. That level of IQ just can't be expected of any player though.

The deck is simply stacked against smaller centers. If you're 6'1"+ you can get away with a lot of skating flaws. If you're under 6', you have to be amongst the elite of skaters. Newhook is merely a good skater.

(All the slander against Suzuki's skating though, it is a bit hyperbole. He's definitely not a bad skater... just another good skater. One with absurdly high IQ)

Newhook's heavier than all those players you listed. He's for sure an inch or two undersized but for me the hockey sense was what stood out the most. I'd give his skating a borderline A and his hockey IQ a D. When he's moved over to the wing or in a less structured system he improves quite abit. That to me shows the decision making is the issue and not the skating. He looked the best he's ever looked in the NHL centering Armia/Gallagher for example.

Agree to disagree. We've seen coaches, scouts, teams etc. all rave about his skating. You see flashes of it. When he's in practice he looks like a borderline elite skater. The issue has been putting it together and using his tools in game with how fast you gotta make decisions at the NHL level. For me that's why he'll ultimately be a winger. If he could think the game faster I think he sticks at C. At 5'10/200ish pounds the top end speed is elite and the rest of his skating is all solid.

 

[henchman21]

He's a weird one. Average skater with average shot (but great hands). He's a good 2-way guy who just makes things happen. IMO he's the closest thing to Bergeron in the league and his game will get better as he gets older.

It is his IQ. Even going back to his draft year, you could just see his IQ was on a completely different level than anybody else.

Newhook's heavier than all those players you listed. He's for sure an inch or two undersized but for me the hockey sense was what stood out the most. I'd give his skating a borderline A and his hockey IQ a D. When he's moved over to the wing or in a less structured system he improves quite abit. That to me shows the decision making is the issue and not the skating. He looked the best he's ever looked in the NHL centering Armia/Gallagher for example.

Agree to disagree. We've seen coaches, scouts, teams etc. all rave about his skating. You see flashes of it. When he's in practice he looks like a borderline elite skater. The issue has been putting it together and using his tools in game with how fast you gotta make decisions at the NHL level. For me that's why he'll ultimately be a winger. If he could think the game faster I think he sticks at C. At 5'10/200ish pounds the top end speed elite and the rest of his skating is all solid.

I'd argue his weight is actually a detriment. Small guys shouldn't bulk up, they should trim down. Get to the 185 range (or below) to keep all the skating up. Point and Hughes are under 180. Bedard may push up to 190, but IMO should really stick in the lower to mid 180s. Small players that bulk up typically lose their skating edge as a result. We've seen that here with Girard.

Coaches and teammates all talk up their guys. Just what they do. Those same sorts all talked up Jost's skating. All the internet scouts talked it up too. They did the same with Jarvis. I've long stood on the soap box that people simply don't know how to evaluate skating... that to many, they see guys skate fast and pretty and simply decide it is elite. Which is just the wrong way to look at it. Burst, edges, strength, transitions, efficiency... these all matter far more than hitting 23 or 24mph. IE the fastest skater to ever be tracked in the NHL is Ryan Poehling. Nobody has been clocked faster than him. Owen Tippett and Brendan Lemieux have also clocked some absurd numbers. They are not what I'd call good skaters.

I agree that Newhook is not a really smart player, but I don't think that with good, or B level IQ on your grading, that he'd be a top 6 center on a good team. We're talking the guys with similar skating and size have all shown they have to have A++ IQ. Marco Rossi is a very smart player (I'd put him in the good category at least), has always shown good IQ, has good skill... also on the smaller side. He's shown he can't really cut it as a center. Newhook is a better skater, but not by as much as people would think.

IMO the needle to thread on <6' top 6 centers is just difficult. You need IQ, you need elite skating, you need high end skill... if you lack in those, it just becomes really difficult. That's why we really don't see a ton of them. You see guys like Gourde or JGP who become energy and defense guys. Or guys like Kerfoot who bounce around and can play the spot... but don't really hold it down and a team won't build with them there. The guys who bypass the mold like Suzuki are incredibly rare. We might see 1 or 2 every 10+ years.

 

[Avs91]

 

[The Abusement Park]

I think that's an exaggeration. Girard is a better skater. Newhook is still a great skater in his own right. I've always maintained it's the reverse of ROR/Staz. Newhook looks less agile/slow at times because of his hockey IQ where ROR played faster because of that. Newhook looked better and much quicker in Montreal where you had less structure and he had less defensive responsibilities. He struggled more with what Bednar wanted from him than he ever did with his skating.

Newhook isn't the elite skater he was billed as but he's in the next tier. He's not Jost. It won't be the reason he's a disappointment if he doesn't succeed in Montreal.

Maybe not 5x, but Girard is a significantly better skater. Newhooks great in open space where he can take off. But part of the reason he struggles so much is his ability on his edges and burst are so mediocre. If guys get the body on him he doesn’t have the size or ability on his edges to win those battles. And with his burst/acceleration being so mediocre it’s hard for him to create space when things get clogged up. He’s a decently talented guy, but being a smallish guy, with okay IQ, and decent talent having those gaps in his skating hold him back just that much.

 

[badi]

Yeah, Pasta is better than Mikko

No He is NOT
Mikko has proved that he could be the man without Mack and has a Cup Ring also

 

[LOFIN]

Whether you think Pastrnak or Rantanen is better is really just a matter of preference. They are very similar players in terms of value however. Pastrnak's deal started last year, Mikko's won't until next year. Cap is going up. Therefor Mikko and his agent have every right to ask for more than Pasta. Obviously we all hope he would sign for less, but the talk about him being overpaid if he gets more than Pasta is stupid.

Oh I'm sorry, I seem to have stumbled on a Newhook thread.