Post-Game Talk: Rangers @ Sabres -- 4/1/21

[Pawnee Rangers]

Ive read " they won't learn if they dont play" a lot here regarding the kids. You learn at practice and you execute in games. If you don't execute in games then you don't play. Its a fairly simple equation as to how to get more ice time, Kakko figured it out, Lindgren figured it out, chytil figured it out before his injury and covid and was being rewarded. Lafreniere will get it, he's a smart player and I'm not getting the impression that he's not happy there at all.
Making the playoffs and getting introduced to it will be a good experience for the kids so do what you can to win and get in even if its a sweep its a learning lesson for them all.

Some of these reactions are amazing. Laff is on the third line because he's the 3rd (maybe 4th) best LW on the team, right now. Same for Chytil. Why the hell should he play more than Zib and Strome? Kakko gets more ice time than those two because, shockingly, he's playing better. Especially Laff, he's a monster on the wall, he sticks his nose into the action everytime he's on the ice. He looks like he wants the puck and he wants to be a difference maker. What's so hard for people to grasp? And if Laff and Chytil are mad about their ice, good, let them get mad and come out the next game and prove the coach wrong. I guarantee you that once Laff plays better than the two guys above him, the coach will gladly give him those minutes. The young guys aren't on the PP 1 because they just aren't better than the guys currently on PP 1 (passed up shots aside), the first unit spend the entire PP in the offensive zone.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd much rather Laff get 8-10 minutes a night in high pressure, playoff type games, with something on the line than 20 in meaningless, run out the season games. Tomorrow, he'll start the game on the 3rd line again and get an opportunity to prove he deserves more time. Blackwell deserved to be on the ice in OT because he scored a goal and was noticeable. I wish Kakko would have gotten a shift in OT, that's a legit gripe, but they're trying to win a game. We are officially in the f*** Your Feelings portion of the season. They need to win every game and the coach needs to coach like they need to win every game. I want Laff, Chytil, and maybe Kakko angry they didn't get more ice this offseason. Let them get fired up. Go live with Kreider this summer and work your ass off like the other players do and the results will follow.

 

[kovazub94]

This is the only issue that the Quinn Haters and I agree on. I’d like to see Kakko and Lafreniere get more PT. But the way I see it, he’s getting to the right place with Kakko, just slower than I would have hoped. So I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt with Lafreniere.
Well, that, and the slow starts to games. But I think there are lots of positives too. So I’m not complaining.

How can we NOT give him a benefit of a doubt seeing how Buchnevich turned out, how Chytil looks at 21 and how Kakko progressed from last year???

 

[duhmetreE]

Why are you glad to see KK benched when he may be our best defensive forward at this point? where is the LOL?

I thought it was blatantly obvious. Your sarcasm detector must be broken

 

[CupSeeker]

These are not new or unique criticisms from a fanbase unto an NHL coach and the explanation for what's happening despite and against fan's expectations you've laid out well.

-'Defensive responsibility' and 'defensive results' should be distinguished here. Much the way Quinn used to distinguish between Howden and Lias by their 'intentions.' Because, in reality, a player can be defensively responsible and defensively inept at the same time. Howden is a great example. We've seen many others here over the years.
-Giving out playing time based on how well they execute is a reasonable thing to do.
-Our best 2 forwards in xGA/60 last game against Washington were Lafreniere and Chytil, who saw 10 and 12 minutes respectively. The game prior against Washington, Lafreniere and Gauthier were 5th and 4th best respectively among forwards, and saw 8 and 7 minutes respectively. The game prior to that Lafreniere and Chytil were 3rd and 2nd.

So in this game, sure, you can make that argument. But let's be clear that Quinn is not talking about CA or xGA when he's talking about defensive responsibility. What's important about that--and why there will never be a bridge between the fans and the coach on something like this--is that we don't and can't know wtf he does mean. And we don't and can't know if the players know what he means. And we don't and can't know if he knows wtf he means.

Lias was a bust. But if we're all still writing the book on Chytil, why close Andersson's now? And who's to say whether he wouldn't be a better player now (for us) if he hadn't gotten the raw deal he seemed to from some fans' perspective. Still, even saying Lias was a bust: what forward prospect has flourished at all under David Quinn? Which one has really hit the ground running? Which has excelled or even lived up to the most modest expectations? Chytil. Chytil has lived up to the most modest expectations. Lias, Kakko, Lafreniere, Howden, Lemieux, Gauthier have all been near epic disasters to this point relative to their profiles and abilities.

It's exhausting and stressful to watch. Management never fails to preach patience and talk about the build and how long it will take. But this is two straight years now of bum-rushing for the playoffs when we've already dug ourselves way out of it and shoving minutes towards older stars regardless of results because in the end the iota of a chance that we make the playoffs lives and dies off of whether Zibanejad can score at a 60 goal clip, Panarin at a 120 point clip, and Adam Fox being a Norris-worthy defensemen. And if Zibanejad and Panarin are gonna get that many points, they're going to need every minute 5v4 and as many 5v5 as they can get.

The coach can say it's about defense all he wants, but anyone with eyes can see what it really is. It's not about teaching. It's not about responsibility. And it's certainly not about defense. It's about winning games, and for the Rangers to do it consistently at this point, they need superstar performances from their superstars.

Many of us are just worried about what's to come when those stars are 34 and the 'next ones' are Jesper Fast and Sam Bennett.

the results with our forwards speak for themselves. And Laf and KK are not just any prospects being stymied. Quinn can preach the 200 foot game and if he feels like these two are not playing it (which they are) he should make sure they are not defending leads late. But to hold Laf to 8 minutes when the team needs him to improve his knowledge and feel of the NHL game so his talents can take over is irresponsible, especially in a year where we are not contending. We have few forwards as bad in our D zone as Blackwell. He gets knocked off the puck, loses it with a poor handle and for some reason has trouble lifting the puck 0ut when he has the chance. He is the forward version of Brendan Smith. Yet, he is getting those key minutes and now OT. This is a bad job by the coach.

 

[CupSeeker]

I thought it was blatantly obvious. Your sarcasm detector must be broken

must be

 

[CupSeeker]

This is a bit over the top. You're not really suggesting Chytil, Kakko, and Lafreniere will end up being a Jesper Fast,... are you? I can understand somewhat the impatience not to play these top prospects on the 1st or 2nd line. But when you have a Zibanejad, Kreider, Buch, Panarin, and Strome, playing close to their absolute best in their careers, asking for additional minutes for our top prospects is almost an impossibility. 3rd line minutes is all they'll get, and I know,... any coach in the NHL would do the same. The youngsters had limited opportunities to move up in the line up, with players being out. They had a few chances to earn top minutes. They are just not ready to replace guys playing their career best. Kakko has improved and has now moved up. So there is no great conspiracy to hold back the kids or that the coaches don't have a clue. It's only how NHL works.

ok. why are 3rd line minutes so much less than 4th line minutes?

 

[The New Russian Five]

I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but the type of game they play will not make them a long-term contender. Buffalo is a doormat team. Yes, that team trounced the Flyers, but with the amount of unforced mistakes that they make, we should have taken it to them. But we're a finesse team, no doubt about this. This type of style doesn't translate to the playoffs, where it's trench battles and a war of attrition shift by shift. This east-west and perimeter crap will be useless.

HF reminder: The rangers are literally the youngest team in the league. That is all.

 

[RGY]

stop. Learning comes from experience and guidance. Playing with other inexperienced/green players and watching from the bench is not the best way to learn.

And they did execute... on the one shift they got in the 3rd period.

Some here will jump through hoops and move goal posts to justify the stupidity of this Coach...

 

[kovazub94]

He played Blackwell over Chytil, only an idiot thinks you have a better chance winning with Blackwell than Chytil in OT.

Do you realize you complain after the game the Rangers won in OT, after the game where Blackwell scored and was one of the more dangerous forwards in the lineup???? Amazing

 

[CupSeeker]

Who cares what Lafreniere scoring rate is in his first NHL season in his D+1 year impacted by Covid?
Look at Kakko’s development this year and take a breath.

Kakko was taken second overall and was considered by many as the best player on the board. Are you saying that his development is a function of how Quinn treated him last year? He is playing better but still not scoring because his creativity was hindered by DQ and is squeezing his stick when he should be playing free and picking corners. He is playing well in spite of Quinn.

 

[CupSeeker]

Do you realize you complain after the game the Rangers won in OT, after the game where Blackwell scored and was one of the more dangerous forwards in the lineup???? Amazing

Dangerous to which team's chances? he was set up a couple of times and spent the rest of the game fumbling pucks and being useless in his own zone. And since you brought it up his performance in OT was embarrassing to his entire family.

 

[TheDirtyH]

HF reminder: The rangers are literally the youngest team in the league. That is all.

no they're not, though they do have the least cumulative games played

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Kakko was taken second overall and was considered by many as the best player on the board. Are you saying that his development is a function of how Quinn treated him last year? He is playing better but still not scoring because his creativity was hindered by DQ and is squeezing his stick when he should be playing free and picking corners. He is playing well in spite of Quinn.

Tell me how he played when he arrived here? He was given the top line rw spot right off the bat, he wasn't good, he lost that spot and was moved down a line until he landed in the third spot, he's now worked his way back up. Just because he was drafted at 2 doesn't mean jack, he wasn't a top 6 player until this season whether he was drafted at 2 or 102. Same went for Lafrieniere, he was given a top 6 spot, they moved Kreider and Panarin around to make him comfortable, they really let him stay there even if his play didn't warrant it, he wasn't ready and he still isn't, none of that is on Quinn, he's a young kid who is finding his way. I can take or leave Quinn but people talking about ice time for these kids like it will magically turn them into mcdavid is asinine. The proof is in the pudding, Kakko, Chytil, Buchnevich and Lindgren are all better players than when they arrived, much better, and Laf will be too.

 

[romba]

Any comments on the shit first goal when Gaut very effectively slides into the net with a lose puck in his skates and Laf watches instead of tying the lone Sabres stick? Didn't think so. Great Laf was in the right spot, not great how passive he was. Not a great rebound for Shesterkin, but tie the guy's stick up instead of reaching aimlessly. Or is it ok to let the opposition get 30 free whacks if you're a 1st overall? Laf actually briefly engages but doesn't tie the stick up at all before the goal. We're not a bottom feeder, we can't let shit like this go in a close game. I'm not asking him to cross check the guy into oblivion, but don't be so passive in the dirty areas. Smith needs to do better also, but there's a reason he's our 6th D at this point with TDA gone, we ain't converting him into a top D anymore. Laf has plenty of lessons to learn and time to grow, last night was just one more lesson for him to absorb.

Kakko has been much improved this year in this regard and it shows in his ice time.

 

[ArPanet]

These are not new or unique criticisms from a fanbase unto an NHL coach and the explanation for what's happening despite and against fan's expectations you've laid out well.

-'Defensive responsibility' and 'defensive results' should be distinguished here. Much the way Quinn used to distinguish between Howden and Lias by their 'intentions.' Because, in reality, a player can be defensively responsible and defensively inept at the same time. Howden is a great example. We've seen many others here over the years.
-Giving out playing time based on how well they execute is a reasonable thing to do.
-Our best 2 forwards in xGA/60 last game against Washington were Lafreniere and Chytil, who saw 10 and 12 minutes respectively. The game prior against Washington, Lafreniere and Gauthier were 5th and 4th best respectively among forwards, and saw 8 and 7 minutes respectively. The game prior to that Lafreniere and Chytil were 3rd and 2nd.

So in this game, sure, you can make that argument. But let's be clear that Quinn is not talking about CA or xGA when he's talking about defensive responsibility. What's important about that--and why there will never be a bridge between the fans and the coach on something like this--is that we don't and can't know wtf he does mean. And we don't and can't know if the players know what he means. And we don't and can't know if he knows wtf he means.

Lias was a bust. But if we're all still writing the book on Chytil, why close Andersson's now? And who's to say whether he wouldn't be a better player now (for us) if he hadn't gotten the raw deal he seemed to from some fans' perspective. Still, even saying Lias was a bust: what forward prospect has flourished at all under David Quinn? Which one has really hit the ground running? Which has excelled or even lived up to the most modest expectations? Chytil. Chytil has lived up to the most modest expectations. Lias, Kakko, Lafreniere, Howden, Lemieux, Gauthier have all been near epic disasters to this point relative to their profiles and abilities.

It's exhausting and stressful to watch. Management never fails to preach patience and talk about the build and how long it will take. But this is two straight years now of bum-rushing for the playoffs when we've already dug ourselves way out of it and shoving minutes towards older stars regardless of results because in the end the iota of a chance that we make the playoffs lives and dies off of whether Zibanejad can score at a 60 goal clip, Panarin at a 120 point clip, and Adam Fox being a Norris-worthy defensemen. And if Zibanejad and Panarin are gonna get that many points, they're going to need every minute 5v4 and as many 5v5 as they can get.

The coach can say it's about defense all he wants, but anyone with eyes can see what it really is. It's not about teaching. It's not about responsibility. And it's certainly not about defense. It's about winning games, and for the Rangers to do it consistently at this point, they need superstar performances from their superstars.

Many of us are just worried about what's to come when those stars are 34 and the 'next ones' are Jesper Fast and Sam Bennett.

been on this site 8 years and this is the first post I ever wanted to bookmark thank you

 

[eco's bones]

Kakko is not our most responsible or best defensive forward. That said he has made significant progress from last year to this—almost like night and day. He’s not a guy I’d want to see out on the penalty kill at this point in time. Maybe next year or the year after. Speaking of ice time Mika and Buch average about 2 and a half minutes of penalty killing time a game. Take that away and Buch is a 16 and a half minute a game player and Mika an 18 minute a game player. Not so unreasonable then.

On Chytil (and I mentioned this the other day) his AHL game hasn’t caught up with his NHL game yet by which I mean at the AHL level he was a puck distributing center and with the Rangers not so much. He’s more of a shooter and not so much a puck distributor. Like Kakko he’s made strides with his two way game but among the issues with our third line there is not a whole lot of chemistry—a bit too much of do it on your own. Chytil being the center though—he should be the puck distributor. If and when he gets that going that line will be more dangerous. The other issue I have with Chytil is he doesn’t use his size nearly enough. He’s a big powerful guy and a very good skater but he hardly ever initiates contact. When you have something make it work for you. He’s got Mika as an example of how he could use his size better. He doesn’t have to kill people but just even leaning on them more would benefit his game.

 

[Tob]

Buchenvich played under AV too.

20 points in 41 games in 16-17.
43 points in 73 games in 17-18.

Buch was a good player that was improving fast under AV with steady point progression. He was also an established NHL player by the time Quinn arrived. Using Buchnevich as a reference is terrible imo.

If Buch went through the 8 minutes of ice time, frustrated struggles that we've seen from Andersson, Kravtsov, Kaapo, Filip, and to a lesser extent so far, ALF, then we could say the boat will dock when it pulls into the harbor. That's not the case though. Buchnevich has always been on the post-graduate program with no restraints. The kids are on the undergraduate mandatory Quinnology program and all of them has disappointed and struggled so far.

To shoe horn Buchnevich in as one of the developmental assets of Quinn when he was here for the playoffs with Vigneault and is the discussion of being traded by our board is silly.

Then people say, look at Zib and Bread! Career highs! Yes, career highs at the cost of the young prospects and career highs that was not the idea behind this rebuild.

 

[eco's bones]

Kakko is not our most responsible or best defensive forward. That said he has made significant progress from last year to this—almost like night and day. He’s not a guy I’d want to see out on the penalty kill at this point in time. Maybe next year or the year after. Speaking of ice time Mika and Buch average about 2 and a half minutes of penalty killing time a game. Take that away and Buch is a 16 and a half minute a game player and Mika an 18 minute a game player. Not so unreasonable then.

On Chytil (and I mentioned this the other day) his AHL game hasn’t caught up with his NHL game yet by which I mean at the AHL level he was a puck distributing center and with the Rangers not so much. He’s more of a shooter and not so much a puck distributor. Like Kakko he’s made strides with his two way game but among the issues with our third line there is not a whole lot of chemistry—a bit too much of do it on your own. Chytil being the center though—he should be the puck distributor. If and when he gets that going that line will be more dangerous. The other issue I have with Chytil is he doesn’t use his size nearly enough. He’s a big powerful guy and a very good skater but he hardly ever initiates contact. When you have something make it work for you. He’s got Mika as an example of how he could use his size better. He doesn’t have to kill people but just even leaning on them more would benefit his game.

 

[The New Russian Five]

no they're not, though they do have the least cumulative games played

Umm, yes they are: Capitals Enter 2020-21 Season With NHL’s Oldest Roster

And relatively by quite a margin I may add. Being a whole year younger on average than the next youngest team is quite substantial.

 

[Kaapo Bustfreniere]

Some of these reactions are amazing. Laff is on the third line because he's the 3rd (maybe 4th) best LW on the team, right now. Same for Chytil. Why the hell should he play more than Zib and Strome? Kakko gets more ice time than those two because, shockingly, he's playing better. Especially Laff, he's a monster on the wall, he sticks his nose into the action everytime he's on the ice. He looks like he wants the puck and he wants to be a difference maker. What's so hard for people to grasp? And if Laff and Chytil are mad about their ice, good, let them get mad and come out the next game and prove the coach wrong. I guarantee you that once Laff plays better than the two guys above him, the coach will gladly give him those minutes. The young guys aren't on the PP 1 because they just aren't better than the guys currently on PP 1 (passed up shots aside), the first unit spend the entire PP in the offensive zone.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd much rather Laff get 8-10 minutes a night in high pressure, playoff type games, with something on the line than 20 in meaningless, run out the season games. Tomorrow, he'll start the game on the 3rd line again and get an opportunity to prove he deserves more time. Blackwell deserved to be on the ice in OT because he scored a goal and was noticeable. I wish Kakko would have gotten a shift in OT, that's a legit gripe, but they're trying to win a game. We are officially in the f*** Your Feelings portion of the season. They need to win every game and the coach needs to coach like they need to win every game. I want Laff, Chytil, and maybe Kakko angry they didn't get more ice this offseason. Let them get fired up. Go live with Kreider this summer and work your ass off like the other players do and the results will follow.

Nobody expects Chytil to play more than Strome and certainly not Mika. But I would expect him to play more minutes than our effing 4th line center who has played barely 50 games in NHL. Yes, Blackwell scored a goal and was noticeable. Chytil scored a goal too (2nd game in a row), was noticeable as well and also hit a crossbar, while playing almost 5 minutes less than Blackwell. What more can he realistically do with barely 10 minutes TOI? What is your idea of him getting mad and proving the coach wrong? Scoring on every shift? Winning Art Ross and Maurice Richard? Last year, he stepped up and was very solid as 1C when Mika was injured. I am really curious as to what more he has to do to """"prove the coach wrong""""" (quadruple quotation marks on purpose).

Jeez.

 

[romba]

Tokarski respecting Panarin's shot HARD on the winner here, covering half a foot off the short side post because of this concern you can see below. Because of that he had absolutely no chance to get across as Mika set up for the quick off-wing one timer

 

[CupSeeker]

Tell me how he played when he arrived here? He was given the top line rw spot right off the bat, he wasn't good, he lost that spot and was moved down a line until he landed in the third spot, he's now worked his way back up. Just because he was drafted at 2 doesn't mean jack, he wasn't a top 6 player until this season whether he was drafted at 2 or 102. Same went for Lafrieniere, he was given a top 6 spot, they moved Kreider and Panarin around to make him comfortable, they really let him stay there even if his play didn't warrant it, he wasn't ready and he still isn't, none of that is on Quinn, he's a young kid who is finding his way. I can take or leave Quinn but people talking about ice time for these kids like it will magically turn them into mcdavid is asinine. The proof is in the pudding, Kakko, Chytil, Buchnevich and Lindgren are all better players than when they arrived, much better, and Laf will be too.

He showed flashes, but his conditioning and strength clearly weren't good enough for him to play "his game". His game is a grinding, quick stick game. Skaters can come into this league and find space right away. This is why power forwards take longer to develop. He has shown improvement in his strength and his stamina and so his game has improved. Those physical deficiencies should have been obvious to the coach who is invested in his development, not just his play on any given night. Quinn damaged his confidence and you can still see remnants of that when he is in a scoring situation. Buch is not a young player anymore; not sure how to evaluate his emergence. Chytil has all the talent in the world and is being stymied by this coach. I am surprised you used him as a positive example. And Lindgren has been good from the jump. It was surprising how good he and Fox were together, but where do you see Quinn in Lindgren's success? Where is Howden's improvement? How about Lemieux? Or Gauthier? Kakko through his efforts has earned a shot on PP1 in Strome's spot which is the clear problem with that unit. You can put Buch there also, but we need a lefty over there but Quinn has his favorites, seemingly all the Ivy League types. The "smart" seem to get ice time under him. I know that sounds crazy and i am thinking out loud, but it seems to be true.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Umm, yes they are: Capitals Enter 2020-21 Season With NHL’s Oldest Roster

And relatively by quite a margin I may add. Being a whole year younger on average than the next youngest team is quite substantial.

Well it's at least up for debate

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Not if they play 8 minutes a night in the playoffs. They can watch on TV to learn about the intensity. If we are fortunate enough to make the playoffs we will get hammered in the first round by whoever we play. Develop the kids; most important thing.

This is the NHL anyone can beat anyone. I don't trust Quinn in the playoffs but the Rangers have the talent and now play defensively well enough they that they should be competitive in the east. This "we'll get killed" nonsense is tiring. Maybe against Tampa if we played them.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Nobody expects Chytil to play more than Strome and certainly not Mika. But I would expect him to play more minutes than our effing 4th line center who has played barely 50 games in NHL. Yes, Blackwell scored a goal and was noticeable. Chytil scored a goal too (2nd game in a row), was noticeable as well and also hit a crossbar, while playing almost 5 minutes less than Blackwell. What more can he realistically do with barely 10 minutes TOI? What is your idea of him getting mad and proving the coach wrong? Scoring on every shift? Winning Art Ross and Maurice Richard? Last year, he stepped up and was very solid as 1C when Mika was injured. I am really curious as to what more he has to do to """"prove the coach wrong""""" (quadruple quotation marks on purpose).

Jeez.

He was great before the injury, not so much after, and now he's rounding back into shape. My guess is the coach wasn't loving what they were doing in the defensive zone. Just a guess though. Chytil played 1o minutes last night, Rooney played 11, but Chytil got more ES time.