Prospect Info: Rangers Prospects Thread (Stats in Post #1; Updated 8.7.18)

[Edge]

He scored almost .5 points as a 20 year old rookie in the NHL during his cup of tea in the NHL, where are you getting he is so/so? Not everyone is Crosby when they walk into the NHL. Usally i'm in agreement with you, but I feel you're pretty off base with Strome. He has done absolutely nothing sub par since he was drafted unless you expected him to dominate the NHL as a 20 year old.

Thanks for bolding NHL, again, he turned 21 at the end of the last NHL season, not everyone jumps right into the NHL, most go to the AHL for a bit. To hold that against him and call it struggles is mind boggling.

I am getting that he is so/so by watching him.

I saw a kid who did very well with a man advantage, and left a lot to be desired in every other situation.

I’m not expecting Crosby, but there’s no getting around that the expectations were higher than where he’s at right now.

I don’t think the expectation for him after being taken third overall was two more years dominating the OHL and not seriously challenging for an NHL spot.

I don’t think the expectation was to spend the better part of a season in the AHL after said additional OHL seasons.

I don’t think the expectations were that such a high proportion of his production would come on the power play, in the AHL.

No matter how we slice it, this isn’t what you expect from a prospect who has thrice scored at a 3 digit pace in juniors and was picked third overall ahead of names like Marner, Barzal, and a total of 9 players who have already played more than 100 games.

Right now, I don’t see a guy who looks to be on the same level as some of those names.

The skating hasn’t come as far as hoped.

The ability to generate higher end offense at even strength hasn’t been there as often as hoped.

Does that mean he’s not going to be an NHL player? No, it doesn’t.

I could see a second line player, maybe even on the wings.

But, I don’t see a kid on the cusp of stardom based on the last 24 months.

 

[Edge]

The only thing stopping Strome from being a top 9 (top 6 really) NHL C right now is ice time, a player who destroys every League he plays in like Strome has will be a good NHLer… But because he's big and doesn't skate well he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, instead i bet you that coaches Think he's lazy because he looks lazy because he's big and doesn't skate well. Give him top 6 minutes and 2 competent wingers and he'll produce above what's expected for his role, i guarantee it.

It's possible the rest of his game weighs him down a bit but if so then you shelter him, he'll score points and points are important.

I dunno if it’s really as simple as the belief that he’s lazy. He’s a player who has some noticeable holes that seem to be holding him back from taking those next steps.

The skating is part of it. In faster settings, it’s simply more noticeable.

While he could get away with moving at slower pace against lower competition, it hasn’t translated quite as well as the pace picks up. It’s one reason why he was particularly impactful on the power play last year — more space, more time, more room.

When he’s playing at even strength, he’s been good at times, but not quite as impactful.

I think he has the skills to be an NHL player. But there’s always this lingering feeling that he’s not leaving it all out there, or that some of those limitations, which have been brought to the forefront, are the difference between being a good player and being a top player.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Thing is @Edge, we don't know if it translates because Yotes aren't giving him a fair shake. As i said, i'm VERY Confident he'll outproduce his flaws by quite a margin. I get that he has flaws, but his good attributes outweighs his flaws.

 

[Blue Blooded]

I dunno if it’s really as simple as the belief that he’s lazy. He’s a player who has some noticeable holes that seem to be holding him back from taking those next steps.

The skating is part of it. In faster settings, it’s simply more noticeable.

While he could get away with moving at slower pace against lower competition, it hasn’t translated quite as well as the pace picks up. It’s one reason why he was particularly impactful on the power play last year — more space, more time, more room.

When he’s playing at even strength, he’s been good at times, but not quite as impactful.

I think he has the skills to be an NHL player. But there’s always this lingering feeling that he’s not leaving it all out there, or that some of those limitations, which have been brought to the forefront, are the difference between being a good player and being a top player.

Thing is @Edge, we don't know if it translates because Yotes aren't giving him a fair shake. As i said, i'm VERY Confident he'll outproduce his flaws by quite a margin. I get that he has flaws, but his good attributes outweighs his flaws.

@Edge does have a point regarding his 5v5 play, it wasn't as stellar as his raw point totals suggest. His 5v5 P/60 was only 12th among U22 players and way below the top guys. Sprong/Roslovic from the same draft class as Strome put up 3.03/2.85 while Strome only managed 2.36. Mangiapane (who I wanted the Rangers to pick in the 3rd in 2014) put up a ridiculous 3.47 (led the AHL). Strome barely outpaced Chytil's 2.21.

http://prospect-stats.com/AHL/2017-18/skaters/5v5

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

@Edge does have a point regarding his 5v5 play, it wasn't as stellar as his raw point totals suggest. His 5v5 P/60 was only 12th among U22 players and way below the top guys. Sprong/Roslovic from the same draft class as Strome put up 3.03/2.85 while Strome only managed 2.36. Mangiapane (who I wanted the Rangers to pick in the 3rd in 2014) put up a ridiculous 3.47 (led the AHL). Strome barely outpaced Chytil's 2.21.

http://prospect-stats.com/AHL/2017-18/skaters/5v5

I get that, he's not the best 5v5 player in the world but i bet you he's net positive 5v5 and he's incredible on the PP.

I'm not saying he's an elite NHLer or anything, i'm saying he can hang 5v5 and he's a difference maker on the PP and Yotes are silly for not playing him in the NHL.

It's also Worth noting that prospect-stats aren't completely reliable since we don't have good data from AHL, they're using eTOI so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[bobbop]

I like Andersson a lot by the way but short term maybe up to 3-4-5 years out this probably works better for Arizona than the Rangers....or at least anyway until Andersson really starts to make his mark and then we can reassess. To me DeAngelo right now is a roll of the dice. There is a 2nd pair right D slot he can walk into but he's going to have to do more than be slick with the puck--he's going to have to put up some real offense and he's going to have to be solid defensively and capable of handling the penalty kill. Those things did not happen at all last year. Maybe the coaching--maybe not. If it's the same story for him this year with a new coaching group as it was last year he won't last.

I hope and pray D’Angelo can improve his defensive play. I’ve not seen a lot to give me confidence.

Remember Tampa had him in the AHL year and moved him. Arizona traded a second for him and a year later moved him. Read between the lines.

 

[eco's bones]

I hope and pray D’Angelo can improve his defensive play. I’ve not seen a lot to give me confidence.

Remember Tampa had him in the AHL year and moved him. Arizona traded a second for h8m and a year later moved him. Read between the lines.

There are a lot of things to like about Tony but defensemen have to defend. The team is not going to have the puck all the time. So how he reads plays and how he maintains position when opponents have the puck is going to be make or break for him---IMO. This year's team might not have very good possession numbers as it is. It is going to be younger and more inexperienced. One thing to be looked at is how Quinn and Brown handle the defense. I never cared for AV's man on man style system of defending and if if Quinn and Brown implement a more standard zone style of defense puck possession stats or not I think the shots will come down (or at least not be any worse) and the dangerous chances will come down. That should help Henrik to cope better and help his backup too.

 

[Edge]

Thing is @Edge, we don't know if it translates because Yotes aren't giving him a fair shake. As i said, i'm VERY Confident he'll outproduce his flaws by quite a margin. I get that he has flaws, but his good attributes outweighs his flaws.

In fairness, I never say never --- there's just too many variables.

But, in this case, I think we can look at certain aspects of his AHL play and see (at the very least) some legitimate concerns.

When we look at why some people have questions, it's not just the amount of ice time he received in the NHL. It's always how he's looked in three training camps, it's some of the things they're seeing in the AHL, or against certain teams --- namely the ones with more mobile defensemen.

It's also worth pointing out that I haven't said he can't become an NHL player. What I doubt is whether he is going to be a first line player, or the type of impact player that Arizona thought they were getting when they passed on a number of guys who are quickly ascending to that level.

 

[Edge]

@Edge does have a point regarding his 5v5 play, it wasn't as stellar as his raw point totals suggest. His 5v5 P/60 was only 12th among U22 players and way below the top guys. Sprong/Roslovic from the same draft class as Strome put up 3.03/2.85 while Strome only managed 2.36. Mangiapane (who I wanted the Rangers to pick in the 3rd in 2014) put up a ridiculous 3.47 (led the AHL). Strome barely outpaced Chytil's 2.21.

http://prospect-stats.com/AHL/2017-18/skaters/5v5

And that's the thing with Strome --- when the ice becomes more crowded, those flaws start to stand out more.

I don't think anyone was ever expected him to develop blazing speed, but it's more than that. It's the pace at which he appears to be comfortable operating.

When you're playing against 16 or 17 year olds, it's much easier to slow the pace down, set up the chess pieces, and play your game.

As you move up in competition, the plays are faster, the opponents come at you quicker, and everything really relies on the ability to make decisions a split second faster.

Strome has struggled with that a bit. Whereas I think there's more understanding of that when a player is 18 or 19, this is a kid who is now 3 years removed from his draft.

We're pointing to his AHL production and using it to defend him, but several of his peers are producing at high levels --- in the NHL.

@ManUtdTobbe questioned why the Yotes didn't play him more at the NHL level. Frankly, I think its the pace.

If I had to guess, I'd say that they saw a kid who at times was still barely keeping up with 5v5 play at the AHL level and they knew throwing him into those situations at the NHL was likely to do more harm than good. Now if you look, you will see that they did give this kid a look on the power play and (not terribly surprising) he scored.

So, yes, he's looked very good on the power play --- where his team has time to possess the puck and there's less back and forth play. But I don't think there's any getting around that even the most optimistic interpretation of his progress would not be thrilled as we head into his D-4 season. But, I don't think they're hoping for him to be a power play specialist.

Maybe he's made huge strides this offseason. I don't know, I'm not hanging out with him. But if we're going off last season, there's much work to be done.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I hope and pray D’Angelo can improve his defensive play. I’ve not seen a lot to give me confidence.

Remember Tampa had him in the AHL year and moved him. Arizona traded a second for him and a year later moved him. Read between the lines.

I mean, the other side of the read between the lines coin is two teams wanted him enough to trade for him. He seems to have evened out his attitude problems to the point where it’s not a noticeable thing anymore and he’s still really young for a defenseman

 

[SA16]

I get that, he's not the best 5v5 player in the world but i bet you he's net positive 5v5 and he's incredible on the PP.

I'm not saying he's an elite NHLer or anything, i'm saying he can hang 5v5 and he's a difference maker on the PP and Yotes are silly for not playing him in the NHL.

It's also Worth noting that prospect-stats aren't completely reliable since we don't have good data from AHL, they're using eTOI so take it with a grain of salt.

How is eTOI calculated? It seems very flawed. Prospect-stats has 79 defenseman who played at least 41 games in the AHL last year with a epts/60 >= 1.00 at 5v5. Zero defenseman in the NHL did this last year. Of those 79 the highest pts/gp was 0.46 so it's not like their pts/60 is so high because they are just scoring a ton. And I can see the issue right away is that they have the player with the highest eTOI at 16.88 mins with only 44 at 15+ whereas in the NHL 150 played 15+ per game.

I've long wanted AHL TOI numbers but their reports seem to be lacking.

 

[tradenashnow]

Andersson will be a really, really, good player when he's 22-24 IMO. I feel confident stating he will be a better playoff performer than regular season performer. Unlike Miller who is a joke in the playoffs. Hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't expect too much his first couple years from an offense standpoint if he puts up 25 points this year, 35 next year, that will be a good sign. His other contributions should be at a high level. I've been hyping up Fontaine for a while. I believe this will be one of the best 4th line players in the league in 2-3 years. Every line matters when you are trying to make the playoffs and win playoff games.

 

[kovazub94]

Thing is @Edge, we don't know if it translates because Yotes aren't giving him a fair shake. As i said, i'm VERY Confident he'll outproduce his flaws by quite a margin. I get that he has flaws, but his good attributes outweighs his flaws.

I don't buy this. For an organization like Arizona it's imperative that their high prized prospect get all accommodations to be successful. More reasonable explantion is that there are things that we don't normally see as outsiders (e.g. practices, etc) that contributes to team's decisions regarding specific player.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

How is eTOI calculated? It seems very flawed. Prospect-stats has 79 defenseman who played at least 41 games in the AHL last year with a epts/60 >= 1.00 at 5v5. Zero defenseman in the NHL did this last year. Of those 79 the highest pts/gp was 0.46 so it's not like their pts/60 is so high because they are just scoring a ton. And I can see the issue right away is that they have the player with the highest eTOI at 16.88 mins with only 44 at 15+ whereas in the NHL 150 played 15+ per game.

I've long wanted AHL TOI numbers but their reports seem to be lacking.

I'm not sure, it's VERY flawed. Still better then nothing i assume but not something i'd trust.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

I mean, to me it's quite clear they're not giving him a fair shake or that their talent evaluation is just completely off.

 

[GAGLine]

I mean, to me it's quite clear they're not giving him a fair shake or that their talent evaluation is just completely off.

Based on what?

 

[SA16]

I'm not sure, it's VERY flawed. Still better then nothing i assume but not something i'd trust.

Yea from the numbers I looked at it essentially seems entirely pointless to even look at. They clearly don't represent reality much at all. And I can't find the calculation for it anywhere or even what inputs it uses.

 

[bobbop]

Thing is @Edge, we don't know if it translates because Yotes aren't giving him a fair shake. As i said, i'm VERY Confident he'll outproduce his flaws by quite a margin. I get that he has flaws, but his good attributes outweighs his flaws.

The Yotes have given him a more than fair shake. In the last two years, they have tried everyone but me at center. He did show some signs of life at the end of last season but he was not a thriving vibrant presence. This is his make or break year and he has to win a center job (probably from Galchenyuk) this year.

 

[bobbop]

I mean, the other side of the read between the lines coin is two teams wanted him enough to trade for him. He seems to have evened out his attitude problems to the point where it’s not a noticeable thing anymore and he’s still really young for a defenseman

So Tampa picks him 19th overall, brings him to the AHL as a 19year old and ships him off for a second? Doesn’t compute. They know defenseman take time too.

Chayka, who has a strong Sault connection, gets him for a second and a year later packages him in a lopsided trade? Doesn’t compute. He knew the player and still shipped him out. Maybe the Rangers overvalued the player.

I don’t think his attitude is a lingering issue. It’s his defensive play. You can defend you can’t play.

 

[Levitate]

I mean, to me it's quite clear they're not giving him a fair shake or that their talent evaluation is just completely off.

I mean...it's also possible that your talent evaluation is just completely off

 

[Levitate]

So Tampa picks him 19th overall, brings him to the AHL as a 19year old and ships him off for a second? Doesn’t compute. They know defenseman take time too.

Chayka, who has a strong Sault connection, gets him for a second and a year later packages him in a lopsided trade? Doesn’t compute. He knew the player and still shipped him out. Maybe the Rangers overvalued the player.

I don’t think his attitude is a lingering issue. It’s his defensive play. You can defend you can’t play.

I think Tampa shipped him out because of the attitude issues. He had some issues when playing for their AHL team and it sounds like that may have been enough for them to want to move him.

Maybe the Rangers over valued him, maybe they were just getting what they could, but it's also worth remembering the Coyotes were trading for some good players and even though they also traded a top 10 pick, it wasn't really the kind of position that you hold onto no matter what. I do think sometimes players getting traded makes their perceived value take a hit even if there's no reason for that. Arizona could have liked DeAngelo a lot but not enough that he wasn't expendable in order to get other pieces they desperately wanted/needed

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I think Tampa shipped him out because of the attitude issues. He had some issues when playing for their AHL team and it sounds like that may have been enough for them to want to move him.

Maybe the Rangers over valued him, maybe they were just getting what they could, but it's also worth remembering the Coyotes were trading for some good players and even though they also traded a top 10 pick, it wasn't really the kind of position that you hold onto no matter what. I do think sometimes players getting traded makes their perceived value take a hit even if there's no reason for that. Arizona could have liked DeAngelo a lot but not enough that he wasn't expendable in order to get other pieces they desperately wanted/needed

This is mostly the point I was trying to make, and I’m pretty sure he had some incident with a referee on Tampa’s AHL team that had to do with him getting traded. I don’t think he’s a super star in the making or anything like that, but I absolutely don’t buy into the idea that he’s anywhere close to the end of his rope in terms of becoming an NHL player or not

 

[Levitate]

This is mostly the point I was trying to make, and I’m pretty sure he had some incident with a referee on Tampa’s AHL team that had to do with him getting traded. I don’t think he’s a super star in the making or anything like that, but I absolutely don’t buy into the idea that he’s anywhere close to the end of his rope in terms of becoming an NHL player or not

I think it's fair to say he is at a point where he needs to show he can start producing in one way or another...thing is if he struggles or gets out played by other guys at this point he could drop down the depth chart real fast, get buried, then traded because the Rangers aren't going to wait around for him to put it together if other players are doing it faster.

 

[Edge]

I don't think the attitude is a concern at this point, at least not to the extent that it will make or break his NHL chances.

I think the question is what kind of role ADA can play.

Can he move the puck and be responsible in his own end?

How does his size and defense translate against bigger, faster competition?

How much offense can he bring?

How does he read and react?

If he plays it safer, how does that impact the other areas of his game?

Does he need certain systems to succeed?

Things of that nature.

 

[Ola]

For players like Dylan Strome you sometimes get a ketchup effect development. He relies on being a dominant package and as long as he isn’t that he isn’t good enough, but when guys like that does become good enough they start to really dominate for a while.

I’ve not seen Strome since the WJC. Would be ridiculous for me to have any firm opinion on him. But he was definitely not someone I fell in love with when I saw him in the WJC...