Prospect Info: Rangers Prospects Thread (Player Stats/Info in Post #1; Updated 6.27.19)

[Beacon]

We had a couple of good prospects, but nothing compared to the number we have now. You’re exaggerating the level we thought our system was at and no one outside the fan base thought we had a decent system at all, despite cranking out NHL players at a very good rate. We never had a highly rated prospect group during that time period and because of that we clung to the few bright spots. That doesn’t mean that the many bright spots we have now should be looked at with suspicion.

1. Even if our youths are slightly better than before, the idea that it is so much better that it is unprecedented is flat out nuts.

2. In 2011, we had a mass stockpile of extremely exciting D. Besides McD, MDZ was viewed as a future 1D, or 3/4 D at worst, not the 6D he became. Erixon was very exciting, as was a recent 10OA McIlrath, and though his selection a few pucks early was controversial, he was still consistently viewed as our top prospect. Sauer was to be top-4. Valentenko had many excited. Staal, Stralman and Girardi were young vets. Sure, now you know that most of them turned to nothing so no doubt you're thinking, "how can you compare trash like MDZ to K'Andre or trash like McIlrath to Lindgren," but in 2011 they were viewed as massively ahead of where K'Andre and Lindgren are today. Our blue line today is not in the same league. Maybe our new guys turn out better, but today our D is not in the same league to how our D looked in 2011.

Up front, veteran All Star Gaborik was surrounded by young Stepan, Kreider, Zuccarello, Dubi, Cally, Anisimov, Hagelin, Fast (then viewed as easily having top-6 potential), a recent 15OA Miller, 54-goal scorer Thomas. Again, in your mind, they didn't reach their ceiling so nobody thought that ceiling exists. It's not as if people were viewing Hags and Fast as having exciting futures when they rocked the NCAA and the SHL. Oh wait...

You assume that none of the prospects were viewed with greater excitement than they turned out. That's false. Most prospects I mentioned had greater excitement than where he wound up.

 

[RGY]

And where were all those kids drafted? And over how many years? How many drafts.

Its an entirely different “excitement” level today.

Keep referencing Christian Thomas. He screams Ty Ronning, or vice versa. And if now was then, we would be more hyped about Ronning if we did not have the collection of top tier talent that we do now.

List where all those guys were drafted and what years and then lets look compare the list of kids now and where they were drafted. Its not the same no matter how many times you say it and how much you want to justify “excitement” from a different time frame/generation to speak the level of quality we had in our prospect cupboard.

Callahan. Dubinsky. Anisimov. Good forward prospects for us. Not so much compared to what came out for the rest of the league for their draft years.

 

[tradenashnow]

1. Even if our youths are slightly better than before, the idea that it is so much better that it is unprecedented is flat out nuts.

2. In 2011, we had a mass stockpile of extremely exciting D. Besides McD, MDZ was viewed as a future 1D, or 3/4 D at worst, not the 6D he became. Erixon was very exciting, as was a recent 10OA McIlrath, and though his selection a few pucks early was controversial, he was still consistently viewed as our top prospect. Sauer was to be top-4. Valentenko had many excited. Staal, Stralman and Girardi were young vets. Sure, now you know that most of them turned to nothing so no doubt you're thinking, "how can you compare trash like MDZ to K'Andre or trash like McIlrath to Lindgren," but in 2011 they were viewed as massively ahead of where K'Andre and Lindgren are today. Our blue line today is not in the same league. Maybe our new guys turn out better, but today our D is not in the same league to how our D looked in 2011.

Up front, veteran All Star Gaborik was surrounded by young Stepan, Kreider, Zuccarello, Dubi, Cally, Anisimov, Hagelin, Fast (then viewed as easily having top-6 potential), a recent 15OA Miller, 54-goal scorer Thomas. Again, in your mind, they didn't reach their ceiling so nobody thought that ceiling exists. It's not as if people were viewing Hags and Fast as having exciting futures when they rocked the NCAA and the SHL. Oh wait...

You assume that none of the prospects were viewed with greater excitement than they turned out. That's false. Most prospects I mentioned had greater excitement than where he wound up.

What are you talking about? Del Zotto was never viewed as a future number 1. Erixon was soft from the day he was drafted. Valentenko was nothing as a prospect. I think what the poster is talking about is then, our scouting department was a joke. With the defenseman prospects now, they are much more legit. Players like Rykov, Reaunen and Lundqkvist are more than holding their own playing against men. Miller is 6'3-6'4 and was dominant as a freshman in college before getting hurt in a fluke fashion. Fox has done more offensively then any prospect we've had on d in years. DeAngelo always had that offensive skill but he was immature. He finally grew up some last year. Throw in guys like Hajek and Lindgren, it's an entirely different deal. I think comparing the prospects in 2011 to now is laughable. The farm system was not respected back then. I myself as always overhype it looking for hope. Now, there is no reason to overhype it. The hockey community praises it.

 

[Irishguy42]

Lol bringing up Lundmark in the same sentence as Kravstov.

Almost 20 year difference. Not even close to comparable.

 

[RGY]

How any prospect turned out from 2008 draft- 2012 draft is irrelevant.

The whole conversation is centered around the mentality in the moment to help determine what the organization should do moving forward.

And in the “moment”, from 2008-2012, our system was not viewed as a top farm system throughout the league. We did not have top tier talent at the time. Did we have some decent prospects? Absolutely. But we got incredibly lucky McDonagh burst onto the scene. Kreider was a later 1st round pick who had physical abilities and those abilities showed in college. Stepan was a 2nd round pick who we liked and became a good center in the league, but even then when he stepped onto the ice we had no idea what we would get out of him. I mean this could go on for countless players. By default, Dubinsky got to play with Jagr. He has otherwise been a 3rd line center for most of his career. By default Callahan, got important minutes here but has otherwise been a 2nd-3rd line winger throughout his career. In the years leading up to their 1st pro game, no one was hyped as much as they were praying they got something out of those players because we had a shallow cupboard of prospects worth even considering.

With this group of prospects, all accumulated within the last three years, there is “hype”. The expectations are much higher and it is not because we are rebuilding. It is because of where they have been drafted, the access to info and data we have had to follow them, and their follow up D+1 and D+2 years.

It is entirely different.

 

[Tawnos]

1. Even if our youths are slightly better than before, the idea that it is so much better that it is unprecedented is flat out nuts.

2. In 2011, we had a mass stockpile of extremely exciting D. Besides McD, MDZ was viewed as a future 1D, or 3/4 D at worst, not the 6D he became. Erixon was very exciting, as was a recent 10OA McIlrath, and though his selection a few pucks early was controversial, he was still consistently viewed as our top prospect. Sauer was to be top-4. Valentenko had many excited. Staal, Stralman and Girardi were young vets. Sure, now you know that most of them turned to nothing so no doubt you're thinking, "how can you compare trash like MDZ to K'Andre or trash like McIlrath to Lindgren," but in 2011 they were viewed as massively ahead of where K'Andre and Lindgren are today. Our blue line today is not in the same league. Maybe our new guys turn out better, but today our D is not in the same league to how our D looked in 2011.

Up front, veteran All Star Gaborik was surrounded by young Stepan, Kreider, Zuccarello, Dubi, Cally, Anisimov, Hagelin, Fast (then viewed as easily having top-6 potential), a recent 15OA Miller, 54-goal scorer Thomas. Again, in your mind, they didn't reach their ceiling so nobody thought that ceiling exists. It's not as if people were viewing Hags and Fast as having exciting futures when they rocked the NCAA and the SHL. Oh wait...

You assume that none of the prospects were viewed with greater excitement than they turned out. That's false. Most prospects I mentioned had greater excitement than where he wound up.

When was Fast ever viewed as having top-6 potential? These kinds of statements lead me to either believe you’re making things up to prove a point or, more likely, you remember the outlier opinions and not the consensus ones. Same with MDZ as a #1. I thought he could end up a first pairing guy, but never a #1 and that seemed to be the feeling around him at the time. I am not thinking “how can you compare trash...” blah blah blah. I’m saying that, as well thought of as MDZ was as a prospect, he wasn’t thought of having the potential that K. Miller might. Ditto for the best forward prospects and youth at the time compared to today. One place you might be right... JT Miller was thought of as future captain material. Boy, was that wrong.

I’m not assuming that they were viewed with greater excitement than they turned out. I’m saying that you’re exaggerating what that excitement level was. Any overzealousness at the time (and I’m not suggesting there wasn’t any) was overcompensation for a largely weak prospect pool. But we don’t have a weak prospect pool today, so the situations aren’t that comparable.

Also, to be clear, I’m not in any way suggesting that this whole thing won’t go sideways. Any rebuild bears that risk.

 

[Inferno]

There is no doubt that the youth movement was much further along when they signed Richards. That was a team that was in its 8th season after beginning a competitive rebuild. There wasn't a single top-10 Rangers draft pick during that time, but the youth movement was in a much more mature stage.

However, this post is an awful lot of over-stating how we viewed some of these prospects combined with an awful lot of flat out weird comparisons. Stepan to Buchnevich? Why? Zuccarello to Andersson? Again, why?

No one thought of that group as having the potential firepower that people think this one does.

I don't think this is true....I think people are retconing their memories to fit this narrative. I feel like back then when we won traverse City and had all these great prospects people thought this club was going to be stacked...and then 1 by 1 prospects became players... And players have flaws people don't seem to notice in prospects. And then they became anchors and hated players who wanted to get paid and etc etc.

 

[Beacon]

What are you talking about? Del Zotto was never viewed as a future number 1. Erixon was soft from the day he was drafted. Valentenko was nothing as a prospect. I think what the poster is talking about is then, our scouting department was a joke. With the defenseman prospects now, they are much more legit. Players like Rykov, Reaunen and Lundqkvist are more than holding their own playing against men. Miller is 6'3-6'4 and was dominant as a freshman in college before getting hurt in a fluke fashion. Fox has done more offensively then any prospect we've had on d in years. DeAngelo always had that offensive skill but he was immature. He finally grew up some last year. Throw in guys like Hajek and Lindgren, it's an entirely different deal. I think comparing the prospects in 2011 to now is laughable. The farm system was not respected back then. I myself as always overhype it looking for hope. Now, there is no reason to overhype it. The hockey community praises it.

The idea that MDZ would never be more than a 6D didn't even cross anyone's mind when he had 37 points in 80 games as a teenager. Erixon was extremely highly touted in the summer of 2011 when Brad was signed, he just got exposed the following year. Tank had a lot of supporters and was easily a better prospect than Reunanen. I just don't have the energy to argue against all the undeserved hype he's getting here, but let's just say he's not even worth mentioning here.

To compare the quality of our young D today to our young D that was overflowing with young guys like Mcdonagh, Staal, Sauer, Girardi, Stralman, MDZ, Erixon, a recent top-10 pick, etc is just comical.

 

[Beacon]

When was Fast ever viewed as having top-6 potential?

Read through our prospects threads and prospect polls. If they aren't here, read on archive.org. When a guy leads Team Sweden in WJC scoring and then goes on a torrent (cut short by an injury), nobody says, "here's your future 4th liner." For a while he was viewed as a good offensive player.

 

[Beacon]

Any overzealousness at the time (and I’m not suggesting there wasn’t any) was overcompensation for a largely weak prospect pool.

And the overzealousness now is due to wanting to escape the torture of nonstop losing. Imagine learning that 3-4 years from now this team is still not competitive. People will be in tears. There's a need to believe that very soon we can be very good.

Maybe, if Shesterkin, K'Andre, Fox, Kakko, Chytil and Kravtsov turn into Richter, Leetch, Zubov, Graves, Weight and Amonte. Maybe not if they turn into Holmqvist, Jeff Brown, Burke Henry, Cherneski, Malhotra, Brendl and Lundmark.

The point is to see where we are before making moves out of impatience that can set this franchise back for a decade or more.

 

[Leetch3]

there are 2 guarantees ever summer

1) the current group of top UFAs are different than past years
2) the current crop of prospects is better than the last

doesn't mean it isn't true cause some years it is, but it does get said every year

 

[Tawnos]

I don't think this is true....I think people are retconing their memories to fit this narrative. I feel like back then when we won traverse City and had all these great prospects people thought this club was going to be stacked...and then 1 by 1 prospects became players... And players have flaws people don't seem to notice in prospects. And then they became anchors and hated players who wanted to get paid and etc etc.

There was optimism, I'm not saying otherwise.

Read through our prospects threads and prospect polls. If they aren't here, read on archive.org. When a guy leads Team Sweden in WJC scoring and then goes on a torrent (cut short by an injury), nobody says, "here's your future 4th liner." For a while he was viewed as a good offensive player.

I never said people thought he was going to be a 4th liner. The feeling I remember was more middle-6, likely 3rd liner. Which is exactly what he became.

And the overzealousness now is due to wanting to escape the torture of nonstop losing. Imagine learning that 3-4 years from now this team is still not competitive. People will be in tears. There's a need to believe that very soon we can be very good.

Maybe, if Shesterkin, K'Andre, Fox, Kakko, Chytil and Kravtsov turn into Richter, Leetch, Zubov, Graves, Weight and Amonte. Maybe not if they turn into Holmqvist, Jeff Brown, Burke Henry, Cherneski, Malhotra, Brendl and Lundmark.

The point is to see where we are before making moves out of impatience that can set this franchise back for a decade or more.

Again, I'm not saying things won't go sideways. Then again, making a big UFA signing this July isn't going to stop that from happening.

 

[RGY]

I will say that I respect Beacon for responding to every poster here one by one. Thats a lot of work.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not digging back to archives.org, but in the recall thread about Fast, the discussion about his future was "solid 3rd liner" & "20-25 goal ceiling" with "responsible defensive play"

Hardly the top-6 projection being claimed here.

 

[Leetch3]

I'm not digging back to archives.org, but in the recall thread about Fast, the discussion about his future was "solid 3rd liner" & "20-25 goal ceiling" with "responsible defensive play"

Hardly the top-6 projection being claimed here.

I think we are seeing some revisionist history on both sides of the argument...but I honestly don't understand why any of it matters...

the point shouldn't be to draw exact parallels between current prospects and past products like it proves anything. the point should simply be that some people are getting ahead of themselves with how well the rebuild is going. right now its all hope and potential and we've had high hopes for guys in the past that didn't pan out...

that doesn't mean that the current group won't be great but some of us should pump the breaks on our excitement until guys actually play NHL games...we need to remember that our excitement is based on what we think these kids will be in 3-4 years, not necessarily what they are today

 

[nyr2k2]

On the topic of our current prospects and their progress, here's a video from yesterday featuring Lakatos. I think it's a foregone conclusion that we do not sign him, but he talks about next season and his future. I was curious to know if he mentioned anything about us. Unfortunately it's in Czech. Any Czech speakers here to provide some insight?

 

[Ken Lund]

This offseason feels like forever and the Cup hasn't even been awarded yet. These arguments are actually starting to make me miss the one about whether we should be rooting for them to win or tank.

 

[Tawnos]

I think we are seeing some revisionist history on both sides of the argument...but I honestly don't understand why any of it matters...

the point shouldn't be to draw exact parallels between current prospects and past products like it proves anything. the point should simply be that some people are getting ahead of themselves with how well the rebuild is going. right now its all hope and potential and we've had high hopes for guys in the past that didn't pan out...

that doesn't mean that the current group won't be great but some of us should pump the breaks on our excitement until guys actually play NHL games...we need to remember that our excitement is based on what we think these kids will be in 3-4 years, not necessarily what they are today

Well, revisionist history is essentially a form of intellectual dishonesty... and no one likes being accused of that.

That being said, I agree with everything you're saying here as far as what's important in this conversation. I just still think this group, solely as prospects, is far stronger than the group that led to the last window and I'm not speaking in hindsight here. I believe the pundits back this up, as well, since I don't remember having a highly rated prospect group except maybe at the very beginning of that process in 2004 after having acquired all those prospects, before Jessiman got injured and after we had 8 picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Even then, from outside the echo chamber of the fan base, I don't think it was ever thought of like this one is.

 

[True Blue]

What are you talking about? Del Zotto was never viewed as a future number 1. Erixon was soft from the day he was drafted. Valentenko was nothing as a prospect. I think what the poster is talking about is then, our scouting department was a joke. With the defenseman prospects now, they are much more legit. Players like Rykov, Reaunen and Lundqkvist are more than holding their own playing against men. Miller is 6'3-6'4 and was dominant as a freshman in college before getting hurt in a fluke fashion. Fox has done more offensively then any prospect we've had on d in years. DeAngelo always had that offensive skill but he was immature. He finally grew up some last year. Throw in guys like Hajek and Lindgren, it's an entirely different deal. I think comparing the prospects in 2011 to now is laughable. The farm system was not respected back then. I myself as always overhype it looking for hope. Now, there is no reason to overhype it. The hockey community praises it.

Are you trying to say that Rykov, Reaunen, Lundqvist, DeAngelo, Hajek or Lindgren are more highly regarded as prospects than Del Zotto was?

 

[McRanger]

Are you trying to say that Rykov, Reaunen, Lundqvist, DeAngelo, Hajek or Lindgren are more highly regarded as prospects than Del Zotto was?

Hard to say. At what point in MDZ's career? After the '08 draft where he was the 10th D taken 20th overall? After a fairly pedestrian D+1 year? After a phenomenal NHL rookie campaign as a 19 year old? After a messy sophomore year?

How MDZ was viewed really depended on when he was being viewed. He had a very up and down first few years.

 

[Beacon]

Well, revisionist history is essentially a form of intellectual dishonesty... and no one likes being accused of that.

That being said, I agree with everything you're saying here as far as what's important in this conversation. I just still think this group, solely as prospects, is far stronger than the group that led to the last window and I'm not speaking in hindsight here. I believe the pundits back this up, as well, since I don't remember having a highly rated prospect group except maybe at the very beginning of that process in 2004 after having acquired all those prospects, before Jessiman got injured and after we had 8 picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Even then, from outside the echo chamber of the fan base, I don't think it was ever thought of like this one is.

A few years ago HF ranked the Rangers 3rd, iirc. That was right around the time Richards was signed, give or take a year.

You can argue semantics that the 2011 prospects outside the NHL were worse in 2011 than today, but we had a ton of young players beginning with 1D Mcdonagh and 1C Stepan. We also had 2 vets in their prime (Hank and Gabby) who were superior to any vets we have today.

As far as signing UFAs go, it is better to have a 22 year old McD, 21 year old Stepan and 29 year old Hank than a bunch of teenagers who never saw the inside of MSG. In what sense does having K'Andre helpful to Panarin in 2019-20 more than Mcdonagh was helpful to Brad in 2011-12? Even if Kravtsov has more potential than Cally, is he going to be a 30-goal scorer for us this year like Cally was in 2011-12?

The signing of Richards made a lot more sense, yet he still had to be bought out.

 

[romba]

Traverse should be interesting for us this year:

Goal--Igor Shesterkin, Adam Huska

Defense--Adam Fox, Yegor Rykov, Joey Keane, Nico Gross--maybe Libor Hajek.

Forwards--Kaapo Kakko (or Jack Hughes), Vitali Kravtsov, Jacob Elmer, Patrick Newell--maybe Ville Meskanen.

A lot of top end talent. The draft might provide another two or three players.

I'd rather Kakko (or Hughes) not play at a prospects tourney. Hang with the big club spending time with the coaches practicing and rest up for the long season ahead. Nothing to prove and little to gain against inferior competition. I was against Chytil going last year too.

 

[Leetch3]

I'd rather Kakko (or Hughes) not play at a prospects tourney. Hang with the big club spending time with the coaches practicing and rest up for the long season ahead. Nothing to prove and little to gain against inferior competition. I was against Chytil going last year too.

valid point although you can probably make the same argument about fox, shesty, kravtsov, etc

 

[Embryo]

Hey guys....I don't wanna get banned of offend anyone....but can someone explain this "frozen froggies" insult thats thrown around at Canadians and what its origins and meaning are? Is it like the N Word for Canadians? SHHHH DONT TELL ANY MODS

 

[Ola]

And where were all those kids drafted? And over how many years? How many drafts.

Its an entirely different “excitement” level today.

Keep referencing Christian Thomas. He screams Ty Ronning, or vice versa. And if now was then, we would be more hyped about Ronning if we did not have the collection of top tier talent that we do now.

List where all those guys were drafted and what years and then lets look compare the list of kids now and where they were drafted. Its not the same no matter how many times you say it and how much you want to justify “excitement” from a different time frame/generation to speak the level of quality we had in our prospect cupboard.

Callahan. Dubinsky. Anisimov. Good forward prospects for us. Not so much compared to what came out for the rest of the league for their draft years.

There are many almost forgotten kids in our system. I like Pajunniemi's skill level a lot. I am a little surprised and disappointed even that he didn't have a -- big -- break through last season. I saw a pre-season game in which he played for the Finnish U20 team (that later won gold in the WJC), and he was one of the more talented players on the ice. Had a bit of a so-so season in the Liiga and injuries etc kept him out of the WJC. I really like Joey Keane too. Tremendous speed, high skill level, good attitude, not quite as small and non-physical as the other RDs we have. Reunanen is doing well, but I haven't seen a ton of him and would like to see more of him outside the Liiga to get a better grip of where he is at. Boo/Gettinger isn't that bad. Gilmour isn't that bad. Rykov and Lindgren are solid prospects. Barron is someone I haven't seen but other likes.

So I agree for sure. If we took away like the top 5 prospects, we would basically have as much reason to be excited about this group as we were about previous farms that had a pretty decent output in the end.