Post-Game Talk: Rangers at Islanders 10/29/13

[Clown Fiesta]

Well i've seen 3 years of Kreider more than probably anyone else on this board. He's really talented. I've only really seen WJC w/ Miller before his time with the Rangers.

Raw meaning unrefined, I would say that he has more unrefined and untapped offensive potential than Miller.

Kreider should score more goal scorers goals while Miller should be scoring the grittier clean up goals. I could be wrong. Just what I think their roles will evolve to be based on what I perceive to be their skill set.

They have different skill sets I think production will be close though. I already said I thought Kreider would have more offensive flair. But Miller shows good instincts as well. That's not what I was saying, we disagree and that's fine but I had up until recently liked Millers game more and thought he had shown more on a night in, night out basis. Which isn't saying much because neither of them were producing offensively. We don't need to turn them into another Callahan and Dubinsky where the fanbase can only like one or the other. I like them both, I liked Millers overall game more, but these last two games Kreider has really elevated his game to the level I had hoped to see.

If they both continue to develop we'll end up with two very good players.

 

[Thirty One]

You said he was poor in the dot; i trusted your assessment.

I did not say that.

As for his linemates, that's not all that consequential. The only thing I've asserted is that the fast pace game doesn't play to his strengths. The numbers you cite do not refute that.

But why should I trust your eyes/brain combination on this assertion when they couldn't even tell you something as simple as who Boyle played the majority of the game with?

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

They have different skill sets I think production will be close though. I already said I thought Kreider would have more offensive flair. But Miller shows good instincts as well. That's not what I was saying, we disagree and that's fine but I had up until recently liked Millers game more and thought he had shown more on a night in, night out basis. Which isn't saying much because neither of them were producing offensively. We don't need to turn them into another Callahan and Dubinsky where the fanbase can only like one or the other. I like them both, I liked Millers overall game more, but these last two games Kreider has really elevated his game to the level I had hoped to see.

If they both continue to develop we'll end up with two very good players.

Exactly. I love them both. Any time Miller touches the puck I picture Ken Jeong saying "It's Miller Time". I want them both to succeed. Miller and Cally should be great. Both high energy players that bring a much needed intensity and heart to a team.

But Kreider will always be my boy. BC pride.

 

[JCrusher*]

Miller has always shown more than Kreider in terms of raw talent and hockey knowledge. Now with Kreider pouring it on and being engaged he's definitely had the upper hand the last few games. But overall game goes to Miller and I'm excited for what he could end up being. Happy with both of them now, Kreider really irritated me previously when given a chance because he was playing timid. A switch went off and he's beasting it now.

I really like miller's mentality. he is a tough young kid who doesnt take crap from anybody. Last night he took on both martin and carkner on his own. He is also very skilled and should get better with experience. However in terms of skill set i still would take kreider. You are right the switch and has gone on and he is flat out dominating teams even when he doesnt score. I also think his "hockey smarts" get a bad rap. i think he is very smart when he plays with an edge. also his passing ability is ver underrated. Besides possibly having 3-4 goals he could also have 3-4 assists

 

[JimmyG89]

They cannot send Kreider down if he is playing like this. He looks dominant on the ice and confident in his game. Miller on the other hand needs more time in the AHL. Feels like a tweener right now. Hags can move to 3rd line duty. Zuke can move down as well when Cally comes back. Tbh, Pouliot is getting more comfortable. Him and Hags work well together, although Hags makes players around him better. Would love to see these lines when healthy:

Kreider - Stepan - Cally (USA line)
Zuke - Richards - Nash
Hagelin - Brassard - Pouliot
Boyle - Moore - Dorsett
Pyatt

If Zuke fails or falls off, could see Miller back up in a 3rd line role and Hagelin moves up. Pyatt is injury replacement only cause he sucks.

Kids get to play AHL like Fast , Lindberg, Kristo, Hrivik, and Miller. Good top 6 AHL. Look at these guys as players for next season. A lot of UFAS and not enough to sign them all to deals and some we don't want back!

 

[Dimz92]

What Kreider needed was an oppurtunity to play in the top six... it has finally come up and he is taking advantage of it. Yes he looked awful during the pre-season but who didn't? The way this team played the first couple of games made me want to swallow my own eye balls. Under torts he was scared to commit a mistake knowing he would be riding the pine for the remainder of the game. People may dislike AV and blame him for the start but his system (which we see coming together without Plugs)will benefit Kreider and the rest of our roster. I don't know how many people have noticed but he has actually moved to a hyrbid zone style in our own end. The result has lead to four straight games of solid hockey.(GAA of 2.00) The scoring will come and its only a matter of time until we face Mr. Block Shots Only on Nov. 30. Torts has the sedin sisters and Ryan Kesler in Van. They know how to run the offense thanks to one guy and its AV. They were both 70-80 point players when he got there. He took their careers to the next level. Ryan Kesler developed his game under AV and scored 40 goals for him. All Torts has done is implement a shot blocking defense and wallah you get a 8-4-1 record. Sound familar? When Torts took over in Tampa he has St. Louis, Vinny Lecavalier, Boyle, etc. that roster was loaded with talent. When he came to the Rangers he did not believe the roster was good enough, and hell it wasnt but as Nash came in Gaborik was here he didn't allow anything in the offensive zone. The same dumping garbage. I always wanted to ask Torts how can you tell how good a player is when you sit him half the game. The Rangers on the other hand have to actually learn how to play an offensive style instead of the god awful dump of the glass and chase garbage. (Speaking of Kesler, Kreider reminds me of Ryan Kesler and i believe he will be just as good as long as they don't send shuttle him between the AHL and NHL) Give him a full season and you will see. He might even end up being our top winger starting next season.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

This wasn't his first chance in the top six, what he needed was a wake up call. Which being demoted at the end of camp probably was.

 

[Idlerlee]

When everyone is healthy, I'd like to see something like this:

Hagelin - Richards - Nash
Kreider - Stephan - Zucc
Pouliot - Brassard - Callahan
Boyle - Moore - Mashinter

Going with the 'if it aint broken, don't fix it' approach based on the previous 2 games for our existing lines.

Dorsett hasn't been a disaster the last couple games, but up until then he managed to cost the team goals against because he took more than one moronic penalty pr. game. His best talent is to throw fists and spend a good while in the penalty box each game. Wish Boyle could take that role with his size, but thats too much to ask from the gentle giant.

Pyatt has no place on this team

 

[Mikos87]

4-7 is better than 3-8.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

When everyone is healthy, I'd like to see something like this:

Hagelin - Richards - Nash
Kreider - Stephan - Zucc
Pouliot - Brassard - Callahan
Boyle - Moore - Mashinter

Going with the 'if it aint broken, don't fix it' approach based on the previous 2 games for our existing lines.

Dorsett hasn't been a disaster the last couple games, but up until then he managed to cost the team goals against because he took more than one moronic penalty pr. game. His best talent is to throw fists and spend a good while in the penalty box each game. Wish Boyle could take that role with his size, but thats too much to ask from the gentle giant.

Pyatt has no place on this team

It's amazing how 3 years later people still don't know how to spell Stepan.

 

[Doctyl]

idk whats with some of these line combos. top 6 imo should be pretty straight forward.

kreider-stepan-nash (kreids has chemistry with step and nash has chemistry with step. that should be a good line.)

richards-brassard-cally (this line dominated in its limited time)

bottom 6 is kinda tricky. idk who to sit.

hags-miller-zucc
moore-boyle-dorsett
pouliot-pyatt

hags could easily slot into the top 6 if needed. he makes everyone he plays with better and he is solid defensively. i think he could bring a lot of secondary scoring to the bottom 6 based on how well he works with everyone. JTM may get sent down when everyone is healthy so boyle or moore bumps up and pouliot comes in.

 

[Wolfy*]

It's amazing how 3 years later people still don't know how to spell Stepan.

Big deal

 

[Faxius]

4-7 is better than 3-8.

Damn right, buddy!

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Big deal

It's just annoying, you'd think people would learn how to spell his name in 3 years.

 

[Thirty One]

4-7 is better than 3-8.

After consideration, I agree.

 

[NYRangers88]

Don't think this has been posted, but does anyone have the highlights of the game from Sam's call? All I can find is Howie's.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

Big reason I think and I hope we have before, because I don't look

is that Hagelin... his speed element is an enormous piece in AV's system. Speed and guys like Callahan are helping AV's system because of quick moves and such. You all noticed it

 

[redfzn]

It's just annoying, you'd think people would learn how to spell his name in 3 years.

so true. i don't understand the difficulty. it's like stall and lundquist to a lesser extent.

 

[Idlerlee]

It's just annoying, you'd think people would learn how to spell his name in 3 years.

I'm going to wager it has somethig to do with how the brain works on assumptions when they recognise familiar sets of characters.

Sorry to have caused you slight annoyance though :p I will spell Stefans name correct from hereon in!

 

[The Gloaming]

so true. i don't understand the difficulty. it's like stall and lundquist to a lesser extent.

Krieder.

 

[Ola]

4-7 is better than 3-8.

I am kind of allergic to the "tonights game is really important"-talk.

But going down 3-8 after loosing against NYI would not have been good.

 

[Bardof425*]

I did not say that.


But why should I trust your eyes/brain combination on this assertion when they couldn't even tell you something as simple as who Boyle played the majority of the game with?

So you're telling me that each game you calculate in ur head each player's linemates by percentage or time together? Stop. Now your just being confrontational for the sake of
Being confrontational. He's too slow and clumsy on his skates. If you can't see that no stats will save you.

 

[Thirty One]

So you're telling me that each game you calculate in ur head each player's linemates by percentage or time together? Stop. Now your just being confrontational for the sake of
Being confrontational. He's too slow and clumsy on his skates. If you can't see that no stats will save you.

You're missing my point by a long shot.

I'm not saying that Boyle is fast with impeccable balance, I'm saying that despite that he has a positive impact on the game. I can support this with evidence.

You cannot support your views with evidence, but assert that you don't need to because your eyes tell you everything you need to know about a player's impact on the game.

Now I suppose I'm confused as to why your eyes can pick up something as complex as a player's impact so precisely, while being off on something as simple as who a player played with by such a large scale. Please help to to reconcile this.

 

[Wolfy*]

I'm going to wager it has somethig to do with how the brain works on assumptions when they recognise familiar sets of characters.

Sorry to have caused you slight annoyance though :p I will spell Stefans name correct from hereon in!

I can see you're a Zucc fan, are you a part of the Norwegian camp?

 

[Bardof425*]

You're missing my point by a long shot.

I'm not saying that Boyle is fast with impeccable balance, I'm saying that despite that he has a positive impact on the game. I can support this with evidence.

You cannot support your views with evidence, but assert that you don't need to because your eyes tell you everything you need to know about a player's impact on the game.

Now I suppose I'm confused as to why your eyes can pick up something as complex as a player's impact so precisely, while being off on something as simple as who a player played with by such a large scale. Please help to to reconcile this.

Your "evidence" focuses on things like meaningless puck possession stats and zone starts which although not meaningless tell only part of a story. But you dismiss other stats like +- and how well the team performs when he's out of the lineup (last year the team did very well when he was benched I recall.)

And here's the real crux of this. My statements are opinion based on what I see; much of it nuanced. Is there a stat for flubbed passes, or inability to accept a good pass, or time spent laying on the ice, or inability to get to a loose puck due to poor turning skills, or failure to identify an open teammate in a prime scoring position?

I do not look to make an empirical argument that Brian Boyle is a severely flawed hockey player that should PK and little else. That is obvious to me; and hence my opinion. Since it is not obvious to you, you have a different opinion. This board is littered with this very situation; and that is ok.

The stats you present only quantify a sliver of his existence on the ice and are therefore only marginally useful; even if you buy into those data points as important. So, continue to try and quantify BB's value and I will continue to tell it like I see it.