Speculation: Rangers and Ducks talking trade?

[HockeyShack]

So you are saying that in your opinion GMs are infallible and can never be wrong?

I find it interesting that Ducks fans think Fowler is as great as they claim yet can't wait to get rid of him. In my opinion, deep down they realize that the statistical arguments about Fowler are valid and want to dump him for value before the NHL gets wiser to it

Ducks fans do not want to deal Fowler. We know dealing him in this case however is the best since he will net the best return.

Nobody wants Stoner for free.

 

[Sojourn]

So you are saying that in your opinion GMs are infallible and can never be wrong?

I find it interesting that Ducks fans think Fowler is as great as they claim yet can't wait to get rid of him. In my opinion, deep down they realize that the statistical arguments about Fowler are valid and want to dump him for value before the NHL gets wiser to it

Somehow I knew this would be the argument.

We can't wait to get rid of him? That's news to me. Most fans I see don't want to get rid of him, but we acknowledge that it's a possibility, and may be necessary.

I think deep down we realize Fowler is a good defenseman, but that **** happens and Murray put the Ducks into a situation where they might have little choice. That's a lot more likely than the crap you just made up.

 

[paine]

Somehow I knew this would be the argument.

We can't wait to get rid of him? That's news to me. Most fans I see don't want to get rid of him, but we acknowledge that it's a possibility, and may be necessary.

I think deep down we realize Fowler is a good defenseman, but that **** happens and Murray put the Ducks into a situation where they might have little choice. That's a lot more likely than the crap you just made up.

This.

Fowler has played like a #1 defenseman his season. Unfortunately, Murray put us in a ****** spot financially, and there's an expansion draft looming.

 

[Sojourn]

I think that only works if Lindholm signs for about 5.5 mil.

If Despres is out long-term, their solution would likely be to LTIR Thompson and Despres, as a quick fix. That would just about do it all by itself.

Of course, Murray will still need to make moves leading up to the eventual return of those two.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If Despres is out long-term, their solution would likely be to LTIR Thompson and Despres, as a quick fix. That would just about do it all by itself.

Of course, Murray will still need to make moves leading up to the eventual return of those two.

Maybe Rackell too in the short term but we'll see.

 

[Sojourn]

Maybe Rackell too in the short term but we'll see.

Yeah. Who knows?

I expect we'll see a lot done as soon as Lindholm is ready to sign.

 

[Smitty426]

This.

Fowler has played like a #1 defenseman his season. Unfortunately, Murray put us in a ****** spot financially, and there's an expansion draft looming.

Yeah Fowler looks good. I don't care what his advanced stats are. Us losing Larsson and his outlet pass would be fine with Fowler's skating it out of the zone. Sucks that he probably becomes the collateral damage of bad cap management, although I am still hoping Shero works out a deal with BM to get him to Jersey

 

[bernmeister]

We are not trading Vatanen so soon after re-signing him especially for Zuccarello who does little to help our cap situation.

We also are not going to trade Theodore and Montour (who are cost controlled for a while) for McDonagh (who is UFA after 3 years) with Fowler traded away in a 3 way deal that doesn't help our cap situation that makes it worse and we lose two players who are cost controlled don't need to be protected for expansion and can be used in a trade to help with our cap situation if it really needs to come to that.

If you don't want to move Vats, which is your right, fine we are happy to look at other RDs and keep Zuc in the meantime.
for the umpteenth time, Zuc is fair value ballpark cap wash.
IF YOU ALSO WANT CAP RELIEF, MAKE AN ADDITIONAL SIDE DEAL, one designed for that

McD also is not being given away.
dont want to pay that price, fine
lots of clubs want that sweetheart deal, if it isn't good enough for you to make some adjustments, fine

I wish you well but I am apparently not the only one hinting that more than a single one dimensional deal is needed to solve all your problems, and certainly doing same simultaneously is unrealistic.

see below...

Is that seriously the logic that came up with? Wow.

Here's what I see...
Top Priority for Ducks fans is getting Lindholm signed. That comes before everything else.
The Ducks need to make cap space for that to occur.
Ducks fans have come to realize the cost of getting rid of Bieksa/Stoner's contracts would be a high quality, cost controlled, expansion draft protected defensive prospect
The only other logical alternate solution is to move Fowler's contract
The majority of Ducks fans claim Fowler is a solid #2 - great #3 RHPMD
Preferred return would be a young, cost-controlled top 6 fwd
Other fans who don't watch Ducks games point to HERO charts and say Fowler is bad because advanced stats

If the opportunity was there to keep Fowler, Lindholm, Vatanen, Manson, Montour, Theodore, and Depres, Ducks fans would absolutely take it. Unfortunately, the forward depth on the team is pitiful and the impending expansion draft almost guarantees the Ducks would lose one of those players for nothing.

I see no Ducks fans dying to get rid of Fowler. Quite frankly, he has been the Ducks best player so far this season. Also, the majority of these Fowler trade threads aren't even posted by Ducks fans... GMs are inquiring about Fowler. Fans are inquiring about Fowler. But I thought he was terrible... So explain that to me, please.

I mostly see Ducks fans dying to get Lindholm signed. And that's about it.

See, when you actually look at the situation, doesn't it kind of make sense? Kind of like actually watching a player play hockey instead of solely letting advanced stats determine their ability.

extremely well said
want to do something cap oriented to sign Lindholm, fine
no want to get scoring Ws for Fowler/Vatanen? fine
want to do something else fine

just stop trying to do it all simultaneously and wasting our time.

 

[Shootertooter]

just stop trying to do it all simultaneously and wasting our time.

A little ironic coming from the guy who had NYR making 6 or 7 moves to wind up with Pesce don't you think?


The bottom line is this for the Ducks. They are in a bad situation with their cap. They want to sign Lindholm and need to move Fowler or Vatanen.

They have little leverage and time is running out. They aren't going to take salary back so Zuccarello is out unless this becomes a complicated multi player deal.

Miller might be an option if they can move additional salary to the Rangers to clear that.

The Rangers are not going to give up Kreider, Buch, Vesey, Mc D or whomever they covet simply to flip Fowler for a RHD, nor should they consider Fowler at all IMO.....Miller is expendable unfortunately. He is likely the highest quality player that would be in the return. More likely picks and some prospects would suit the Ducks better considering their inability to take back cap.

This is the reality, any major player going to the Ducks would cost major salary and they can't do that. I think they have less than 500K wiggle room.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

A little ironic coming from the guy who had NYR making 6 or 7 moves to wind up with Pesce don't you think?


The bottom line is this for the Ducks. They are in a bad situation with their cap. They want to sign Lindholm and need to move Fowler or Vatanen.

They have little leverage and time is running out. They aren't going to take salary back so Zuccarello is out unless this becomes a complicated multi player deal.

Miller might be an option if they can move additional salary to the Rangers to clear that.

The Rangers are not going to give up Kreider, Buch, Vesey, Mc D or whomever they covet simply to flip Fowler for a RHD, nor should they consider Fowler at all IMO.....Miller is expendable unfortunately. He is likely the highest quality player that would be in the return. More likely picks and some prospects would suit the Ducks better considering their inability to take back cap.

This is the reality, any major player going to the Ducks would cost major salary and they can't do that. I think they have less than 500K wiggle room.

We don't have to move Fowler or Vatanen, they're just our best bets if we want to save money and bring in a good young forward.

When you factor in demotions and LTIR, the Ducks will likely only need to free up $2M-2.5M via trade in order to fit Lindholm in, or perhaps nothing at all if Despres also has a long term injury. So while there is a squeeze there, the situation isn't as dire as some make it out to be.

 

[TheTakedown]

This situation with the ducks definitely reminds me of when the Blackhawks had to move Nick Leddy, and when the Bruins had to move Johnny Boychuck... Both teams were over the salary cap and needed to make immediate moves for cap relief.
Though the situation isn't the same, the end result is--the Ducks need Lindholm signed because they are losing games without him, and every day that goes by where he is not signed is driving the AAV for year 1 of that contract up (side note, you'll notice Trouba and WPG are NOT in this situation. Something to keep in mind).

The deals ended up being:
Leddy for Pokka, Brennan, and Nilsson
Boychuck for 2015 2nd, 2016 2nd, and a conditional 2015 3rd (which was never met because Boychuck stayed with the Islanders).

Nilsson is a backup goalie on a terrible team, Brennan is an AHL defensemen, and Pokka still can't make the Blackhawks. Those picks were just as much of a crapshoot as any other set of picks.

This is the type of return the ducks need to be expecting unless they SERIOUSLY add to it

 

[paine]

This situation with the ducks definitely reminds me of when the Blackhawks had to move Nick Leddy, and when the Bruins had to move Johnny Boychuck... Both teams were over the salary cap and needed to make immediate moves for cap relief.
Though the situation isn't the same, the end result is--the Ducks need Lindholm signed because they are losing games without him, and every day that goes by where he is not signed is driving the AAV for year 1 of that contract up (side note, you'll notice Trouba and WPG are NOT in this situation. Something to keep in mind).

The deals ended up being:
Leddy for Pokka, Brennan, and Nilsson
Boychuck for 2015 2nd, 2016 2nd, and a conditional 2015 3rd (which was never met because Boychuck stayed with the Islanders).

Nilsson is a backup goalie on a terrible team, Brennan is an AHL defensemen, and Pokka still can't make the Blackhawks. Those picks were just as much of a crapshoot as any other set of picks.

This is the type of return the ducks need to be expecting unless they SERIOUSLY add to it

You're in for a rude awakening.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

This situation with the ducks definitely reminds me of when the Blackhawks had to move Nick Leddy, and when the Bruins had to move Johnny Boychuck... Both teams were over the salary cap and needed to make immediate moves for cap relief.
Though the situation isn't the same, the end result is--the Ducks need Lindholm signed because they are losing games without him, and every day that goes by where he is not signed is driving the AAV for year 1 of that contract up (side note, you'll notice Trouba and WPG are NOT in this situation. Something to keep in mind).

The deals ended up being:
Leddy for Pokka, Brennan, and Nilsson
Boychuck for 2015 2nd, 2016 2nd, and a conditional 2015 3rd (which was never met because Boychuck stayed with the Islanders).

Nilsson is a backup goalie on a terrible team, Brennan is an AHL defensemen, and Pokka still can't make the Blackhawks. Those picks were just as much of a crapshoot as any other set of picks.

This is the type of return the ducks need to be expecting unless they SERIOUSLY add to it

Well see I guess it'll be interesting there are a lot of teams that need dmen

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This situation with the ducks definitely reminds me of when the Blackhawks had to move Nick Leddy, and when the Bruins had to move Johnny Boychuck... Both teams were over the salary cap and needed to make immediate moves for cap relief.
Though the situation isn't the same, the end result is--the Ducks need Lindholm signed because they are losing games without him, and every day that goes by where he is not signed is driving the AAV for year 1 of that contract up (side note, you'll notice Trouba and WPG are NOT in this situation. Something to keep in mind).

The deals ended up being:
Leddy for Pokka, Brennan, and Nilsson
Boychuck for 2015 2nd, 2016 2nd, and a conditional 2015 3rd (which was never met because Boychuck stayed with the Islanders).

Nilsson remains a nothing factor, Brennan is an AHL defensemen, and Pokka still can't make the Blackhawks.

This is the type of return the ducks need to be expecting unless they SERIOUSLY add to it

But you're missing the key difference...the Hawks HAD to deal Leddy to get under the cap. The Ducks don't have to trade Fowler to get Lindholm signed.

 

[Ducks in a row]

If you don't want to move Vats, which is your right, fine we are happy to look at other RDs and keep Zuc in the meantime.
for the umpteenth time, Zuc is fair value ballpark cap wash.
IF YOU ALSO WANT CAP RELIEF, MAKE AN ADDITIONAL SIDE DEAL, one designed for that

McD also is not being given away.
dont want to pay that price, fine
lots of clubs want that sweetheart deal, if it isn't good enough for you to make some adjustments, fine

I wish you well but I am apparently not the only one hinting that more than a single one dimensional deal is needed to solve all your problems, and certainly doing same simultaneously is unrealistic.

see below...



extremely well said
want to do something cap oriented to sign Lindholm, fine
no want to get scoring Ws for Fowler/Vatanen? fine
want to do something else fine

just stop trying to do it all simultaneously and wasting our time.

Not trading Vatanen so soon after re-signing him nothing more said about this.

No you won't be giving McDonough away but we also won't be trading for him. We also won't be trading away both Theodore and Montour.

We are not looking to do trades that don't do a good job of helping our cap situation.

Would trade Fowler to Boston for Spooner. Helps with our cap situation and gets a good forward back.

 

[TheGuarantee]

Please Ducks fans ignore Bernmeister

 

[TheTakedown]

But you're missing the key difference...the Hawks HAD to deal Leddy to get under the cap. The Ducks don't have to trade Fowler to get Lindholm signed.

there is still a hard deadline for this: December 1st
If Lindholm isn't signed by then, he can't play for the remainder of the year, and this hurts both the ducks and Lindholm. On top of that, the longer the ducks wait, the more the AAV for this season is going to go up. Ducks only have several hundred thousand $ in cap space to play with, so even an AAV increase of $400k this season can make or break this for them.

Beyond that, The ducks need to sign him in order to start winning games, so yeah, there is definitely a deadline in play here.

Trust me, if the ducks wait, they are going to find themselves paying a FORTUNE to get a team to take on a $3M cap dump in Stoner (which is a small cap dump considering the cap ceiling--about 4%). They're going to find themselves in a VERY similar situation to the blackhawks where they're going to have to cut bait with a very good ROSTER player (not just a prospect) in order to make space for Lindholm--nobody is taking on Stoner as a favor.

There was also a SERIOUS lack of foresight on the ducks part. They could have had this space available without paying the price of a promising prospect for it if they had just bought out Bieksa and/or Stoner this offseason.

https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout_calculator/kevin-bieksa
https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout_calculator/clayton-stoner

That would have been $2.416M in dead cap space for 4 years, but for the following 2 seasons they would have had $4.833M NETTED in cap relief. That would have solved all of their problems. With their defensive depth, having young defenders in place to take on higher roles would have nullified the risk of the dead salary leftover

For Trouba, different situation, but same end result. It affects the team and the player (and the respective values of each component).

 

[pbgoalie]

funny that Vatanen and Stoner are a pretty good pairing for us.

Rangers need a rhd
Race the pair

For Miller and Mcillrath.

Would hurt to lose vats for sure, but we do have some young talent that can step in.
Losing stoner Impacts on toughness and stay at home (albeit too expensive)

Miller is a cost effective forward which is our goal
McIllrath is on the outs and gives the Ducks toughness, and a different type of prospect that Carlyle would likely use better.

We lose a very good, cost controlled defenseman and pick up a potentially solid cost fitting forward

We swap big defenseman problems while Rangers shore up right side

<<<putting on asbestos suit for attacks from all!

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

there is still a hard deadline for this: December 1st
If Lindholm isn't signed by then, he can't play for the remainder of the year, and this hurts both the ducks and Lindholm. On top of that, the longer the ducks wait, the more the AAV for this season is going to go up. Ducks only have several hundred thousand $ in cap space to play with, so even an AAV increase of $400k this season can make or break this for them.

Beyond that, The ducks need to sign him in order to start winning games, so yeah, there is definitely a deadline in play here.

Trust me, if the ducks wait, they are going to find themselves paying a FORTUNE to get a team to take on a $3M cap dump in Stoner (which is a small cap dump considering the cap ceiling--about 4%). They're going to find themselves in a VERY similar situation to the blackhawks where they're going to have to cut bait with a very good ROSTER player (not just a prospect) in order to make space for Lindholm--nobody is taking on Stoner as a favor.

There was also a SERIOUS lack of foresight on the ducks part. They could have had this space available without paying the price of a promising prospect for it if they had just bought out Bieksa and/or Stoner this offseason.

https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout_calculator/kevin-bieksa
https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout_calculator/clayton-stoner

That would have been $2.416M in dead cap space for 4 years, but for the following 2 seasons they would have had $4.833M NETTED in cap relief. That would have solved all of their problems. With their defensive depth, having young defenders in place to take on higher roles would have nullified the risk of the dead salary leftover

For Trouba, different situation, but same end result. It affects the team and the player (and the respective values of each component).

We still have 5 weeks... pretty sure we are not worried.... and the team has been at least competitive without rakell/lindholm

 

[TheTakedown]

funny that Vatanen and Stoner are a pretty good pairing for us.

Rangers need a rhd
Race the pair

For Miller and Mcillrath.

Would hurt to lose vats for sure, but we do have some young talent that can step in.
Losing stoner Impacts on toughness and stay at home (albeit too expensive)

Miller is a cost effective forward which is our goal
McIllrath is on the outs and gives the Ducks toughness, and a different type of prospect that Carlyle would likely use better.

We lose a very good, cost controlled defenseman and pick up a potentially solid cost fitting forward

We swap big defenseman problems while Rangers shore up right side

<<<putting on asbestos suit for attacks from all!

If the ducks needed further cap relief, NYR might be able to absorb Stoner's cap hit if we could send a smaller cap dump back.

Miller + McIlrath + Glass
FOR
Stoner + Vatanen + D Prospect + Pick

Again, the ducks are over a barrel right now--they're going to get ****ed in any potential trade

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

If the ducks needed further cap relief, NYR might be able to absorb Stoner's cap hit if we could send a smaller cap dump back.

Miller + McIlrath + Glass
FOR
Stoner + Vatanen + D Prospect + Pick

Again, the ducks are over a barrel right now--they're going to get ****ed in any potential trade

That's just speculation, BM is likely taking his time to make the best possible moves for the team.

Chances are we wont move 3 dmen in the same trade unless that d prospect is like petterson

 

[TheTakedown]

We still have 5 weeks... pretty sure we are not worried.... and the team has been at least competitive without rakell/lindholm

5 weeks is not a long time, and even then, the longer you wait, the more Lindholm's AAV is going to go up this year, and the less and less relevant the ducks will be in the standings.

that 1-3-1 start with a -4 GD though...

 

[Exit Dose]

5 weeks is not a long time, and even then, the longer you wait, the more Lindholm's AAV is going to go up this year, and the less and less relevant the ducks will be in the standings.

that 1-3-1 start with a -4 GD though...

Apparently you didn't follow the Ducks last season. This season has already started better than last.

 

[TheTakedown]

That's just speculation, BM is likely taking his time to make the best possible moves for the team.

Chances are we wont move 3 dmen in the same trade unless that d prospect is like petterson

It's not speculation. When a team is desperate, they start losing leverage, which means they have to accept less than market value.

The ducks had ALL of these options and they didn't exercise any of them.

- Didn't move Fowler at the Draft
- Didn't buy out one, if not both of Bieksa and Stoner
- Didn't shop Vatanen as an RFA (from what I heard/read)

They're running out of time and options, just like the Blackhawks and Bruins did before the season started and they had to be cap compliant to start the season.

 

[TheTakedown]

Apparently you didn't follow the Ducks last season. This season has already started better than last.

and last season's start was one of the worst in the league, no? It's not hard to be better than that...