OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: New season of plundering begins
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DJ Spinoza
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Nutting's comments strike me as at least somewhat notable. He does not deserve any credit at all, but I think he was at least minimally doing the job of a committed owner with regard to the extensions that have been given out.
In that sense, it's good to hear him saying the right words, even if ownership/management talk is always half-empty at best. I get the sense that the Pirates don't want to make an "expensive" prospect move because of their focus on building a sustained winner, and a major part of that process is that you have to be able to keep backfilling your team from your own system.
However, 1) we haven't really shown the kind of sustainable prospect success with a certain type of prospect that teams like the Brewers have with college pitching, for example, which would make you think we can pull that off. Maybe we'll be able to do it with pitching, but it seems more likely that we're just going to end up with who can claw through + the lucky break of getting a true phenom at the most important and difficult position. And, to state the obvious, 2) we haven't yet found any success to sustain anyways.
The window for success starts and ends with Skenes. There should be a priority on trying to steer this team into the playoffs, but as weird as it sounds, we also have to face the reality that the long-term management of Skenes and Jones' innings is probably even more important.
For certain players like Robert, I really don't think Nutting's comments mean anything, as there are multiple other teams who have the ability to snipe him with better prospects, chiefly Seattle and Baltimore, who are better teams further ahead of us in their successful rebuilds.
It's going to be trickier than usual to do a smaller buy, since so many teams are in the hunt and not going to just punt early. It will take either some teams to fall behind and decide their window isn't open quite yet (might describe Washington, Detroit, NY Mets, and realistically us, even though we don't have anything to sell and are partially in this position due to not investing in free agency), OR it will take creativity and willingness to take chances, even on moves that won't be obviously cheered right away. Here are two possibilities:
1) Re-acquire Josh Bell for 1B. His contract is bad and he has struggled this year, with some streaky upsides that still make him dangerous. He could almost certainly be had for middling depth prospects with the Marlins paying down a lot of it to even achieve that much. No risk for a reunion, but is there meaningful upside?
2) If Baltimore does move for the big splash in Robert, then inquire about Cedric Mullins. Again, he is a guy who has struggled a decent bit this year, but he still plays an adequate CF and would be an upgrade over the nothing production we are getting there. He's arb eligible for one more year and has improved in June, so it would potentially be a move for 2025 as well. Honestly, this isn't a sexy idea, but I think it's an under the radar idea that would fit into the category of a minor buy. Baltimore could still want Mullins as a 4th option on the bench, but they have a billion prospects and still will in the event of a big trade for Robert. They are cost conscious and so this could appeal to them if they are going to go get a huge talent like Robert to try and put themselves over the top.
In that sense, it's good to hear him saying the right words, even if ownership/management talk is always half-empty at best. I get the sense that the Pirates don't want to make an "expensive" prospect move because of their focus on building a sustained winner, and a major part of that process is that you have to be able to keep backfilling your team from your own system.
However, 1) we haven't really shown the kind of sustainable prospect success with a certain type of prospect that teams like the Brewers have with college pitching, for example, which would make you think we can pull that off. Maybe we'll be able to do it with pitching, but it seems more likely that we're just going to end up with who can claw through + the lucky break of getting a true phenom at the most important and difficult position. And, to state the obvious, 2) we haven't yet found any success to sustain anyways.
The window for success starts and ends with Skenes. There should be a priority on trying to steer this team into the playoffs, but as weird as it sounds, we also have to face the reality that the long-term management of Skenes and Jones' innings is probably even more important.
For certain players like Robert, I really don't think Nutting's comments mean anything, as there are multiple other teams who have the ability to snipe him with better prospects, chiefly Seattle and Baltimore, who are better teams further ahead of us in their successful rebuilds.
It's going to be trickier than usual to do a smaller buy, since so many teams are in the hunt and not going to just punt early. It will take either some teams to fall behind and decide their window isn't open quite yet (might describe Washington, Detroit, NY Mets, and realistically us, even though we don't have anything to sell and are partially in this position due to not investing in free agency), OR it will take creativity and willingness to take chances, even on moves that won't be obviously cheered right away. Here are two possibilities:
1) Re-acquire Josh Bell for 1B. His contract is bad and he has struggled this year, with some streaky upsides that still make him dangerous. He could almost certainly be had for middling depth prospects with the Marlins paying down a lot of it to even achieve that much. No risk for a reunion, but is there meaningful upside?
2) If Baltimore does move for the big splash in Robert, then inquire about Cedric Mullins. Again, he is a guy who has struggled a decent bit this year, but he still plays an adequate CF and would be an upgrade over the nothing production we are getting there. He's arb eligible for one more year and has improved in June, so it would potentially be a move for 2025 as well. Honestly, this isn't a sexy idea, but I think it's an under the radar idea that would fit into the category of a minor buy. Baltimore could still want Mullins as a 4th option on the bench, but they have a billion prospects and still will in the event of a big trade for Robert. They are cost conscious and so this could appeal to them if they are going to go get a huge talent like Robert to try and put themselves over the top.
Thanks, appreciate it! I think we just have a small but solid group of thread regulars and everyone kinda knows my deal. Writing out longer posts keeps me disciplined and is enjoyable to process things for myself.
More snippets from Nutting, which could be preparing us for the "nothing" that might come.
"some of our offensive improvement is going to have come from within."
sovietsanta87
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DJ Spinoza
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Slightly worried about the reliance on a bullpen game. There's no denying that Mlod and Ortiz have made it seem like a great idea, but the way it's worked out so far has just felt like a massive bonus each time.
I think it's partly because of the spot: series opener in an important home series. If it goes ugly, it could really take the wind out of the sails and create some havoc for the remaining games, not to mention that there's no off day on Monday. It's one thing when you have a series W or even just a game locked up, but it will really be under the microscope tonight.
The biggest thing with it IMO has just been minimizing walks. That's true for all relievers, but if we can at least keep that up, then Tampa's offense shouldn't be too threatening if we avoid other mistakes.
I think it's partly because of the spot: series opener in an important home series. If it goes ugly, it could really take the wind out of the sails and create some havoc for the remaining games, not to mention that there's no off day on Monday. It's one thing when you have a series W or even just a game locked up, but it will really be under the microscope tonight.
The biggest thing with it IMO has just been minimizing walks. That's true for all relievers, but if we can at least keep that up, then Tampa's offense shouldn't be too threatening if we avoid other mistakes.
BusinessGoose
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Imanaga got lit up by the Mets
3 innings, 3K, 3BB, 11H, 10R, 3HR
Hopefully that sort of day doesn't hit Skenes or Jones. Even though you could say it would be a good learning experience.
@DJ Spinoza yeah, uh, why we doing so many? Really no one we can call up right now at all? And yeah, bad to burn through a bunch of guys to start a series.
3 innings, 3K, 3BB, 11H, 10R, 3HR
Hopefully that sort of day doesn't hit Skenes or Jones. Even though you could say it would be a good learning experience.
@DJ Spinoza yeah, uh, why we doing so many? Really no one we can call up right now at all? And yeah, bad to burn through a bunch of guys to start a series.
DJ Spinoza
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@BusinessGoose I think it's a combination of a couple of things. It's worked perfectly so far, which is hard to argue with, and then secondly, we don't really have anyone jumping off the page in Indy. Ashcraft could be an option because he's on the 40-man, but he just got to AAA and I don't think we'd mess with him yet.
Perez is starting his rehab in Indy tomorrow, and I doubt a veteran needs more than a start to shake the dust off. So I think it's a viable option given how well it worked. For me, it's less about burning pitchers and more about the unfortunate timing of doing it. Mlodzinski has probably done his job here with 1.2 or hopefully 2 innings, so as long as Ortiz can be a steadying force, that's fine.
Some bad luck with batted balls in this inning, but that's also kind of the risk you run with this approach. A lot riding on Ortiz now to get a quick out and then stay locked in. Not really the end of the world if it's just a run here... the Opener Experience that is worrying is when your guy gets blown up for 4 or 5 runs immediately and then you still have the rest of the game to cover. This is more or less according to plan, as long as Ortiz can hopefully get a quick out and leave the runner stranded (it's not the end of the world if he scores, but the less pressure there is on our offense, the better obviously).
Perez is starting his rehab in Indy tomorrow, and I doubt a veteran needs more than a start to shake the dust off. So I think it's a viable option given how well it worked. For me, it's less about burning pitchers and more about the unfortunate timing of doing it. Mlodzinski has probably done his job here with 1.2 or hopefully 2 innings, so as long as Ortiz can be a steadying force, that's fine.
Some bad luck with batted balls in this inning, but that's also kind of the risk you run with this approach. A lot riding on Ortiz now to get a quick out and then stay locked in. Not really the end of the world if it's just a run here... the Opener Experience that is worrying is when your guy gets blown up for 4 or 5 runs immediately and then you still have the rest of the game to cover. This is more or less according to plan, as long as Ortiz can hopefully get a quick out and leave the runner stranded (it's not the end of the world if he scores, but the less pressure there is on our offense, the better obviously).
Scandale du Jour
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BusinessGoose
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Factorial
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The Pirates aren't much better although I do like that they used PGH so maybe people will stop referring to the Pittsburgh sports teams as "PItt" or "Pit."
DJ Spinoza
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Name of the game now is limited damage and eating the innings. Ortiz's command isn't there tonight, but if he can at least get through the 6th, it will prevent this game from overly taxing the bullpen. Not much you can do about lucky hits falling.
DJ Spinoza
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Well, we need one more big hit here and the whole game has flipped on its head. Cutch needs to at least get this ball in the air to the outfield.
Ball goes into corner, rattles around for 10 minutes, our idiot third base coach holds Hayes. We are the only team in major league baseball that goes station to station. Utterly insane.
Once again cost us at least one run for terrible base running. Clutch doesn't bounce into double play either if Hayes scores, and he would have easily.
Once again cost us at least one run for terrible base running. Clutch doesn't bounce into double play either if Hayes scores, and he would have easily.
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Factorial
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DJ Spinoza
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Yeah, hard to put any fault on him for that contact. He hit it hard, but had no luck with where it was placed.
The only potential silver lining at the moment is that the Rays bullpen is already kind of a mess and overly taxed, so Cash managing all out in order to secure this win might bode well for us in the remaining two games. But lots of game left, if the bullpen can keep it where it is.
The only potential silver lining at the moment is that the Rays bullpen is already kind of a mess and overly taxed, so Cash managing all out in order to secure this win might bode well for us in the remaining two games. But lots of game left, if the bullpen can keep it where it is.
ChaosAgent
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wheelz87
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It is inexcusable for Hayes to not score there but some of that might be on him for actually not being that fast.
ChaosAgent
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Coastal Kev
There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
DJ Spinoza
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