OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Dull days of July

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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The White Sox are on pace to lose 123 games. They are the worst MLB team I have ever seen. The worst Pirates teams since the 90s aren't close to as bad as the White Sox are, let alone this team.

But yeah, the team is disgusting and sad. No doubt about that.
But right now? They are that bad.


I get emotionally invested for the Pirates for some reason, and find myself really wishing they'd just move to Charlotte or Indianapolis or Montreal. I find myself looking forward to the off days because I get to not care.
 
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metalan2

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May 30, 2008
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Sucks to be a fan of this team. However, it's easier this way than getting to September or something and it happening then. We knew it would happen regardless.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Firings are warranted, but it's hard to imagine a worse situation than the one we're in right now. If the whole staff and front office are cleaned out, the other shoe falling is "trade Skenes".

I don't really think there's a good outcome. The sole solution to this mess is spending significant money on one major and at least one supplementary MLB bat in the offseason, and we all know that they won't even do the latter.

IKF is enough of a gamer to be a useful bat for next year. BDLC can't be this bad, because he looks like he is unplayable. Bart probably needs to pick up his 1B glove over the offseason but that's fine given the organizational needs.

You pray that the pitchers stay healthy, but the lineup needs a guy like Santander or Teoscar Hernandez inserted into it. There's also no CF in the organization and there's basically nobody in free agency besides Bader.
 

BusinessGoose

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Firings are warranted, but it's hard to imagine a worse situation than the one we're in right now. If the whole staff and front office are cleaned out, the other shoe falling is "trade Skenes".

I don't really think there's a good outcome. The sole solution to this mess is spending significant money on one major and at least one supplementary MLB bat in the offseason, and we all know that they won't even do the latter.

IKF is enough of a gamer to be a useful bat for next year. BDLC can't be this bad, because he looks like he is unplayable. Bart probably needs to pick up his 1B glove over the offseason but that's fine given the organizational needs.

You pray that the pitchers stay healthy, but the lineup needs a guy like Santander or Teoscar Hernandez inserted into it. There's also no CF in the organization and there's basically nobody in free agency besides Bader.
There is zero good news in this analysis
 

GilbertSeinfeld

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Since 1895, a total of 18 Pirates teams have lost 10 consecutive games in a season, while only seven have suffered more than 10 losses in a row. Shelton has been at the helm for three of those seasons in which one of his teams suffered 10 losses in a row (2021, 2023 and 2024).

I doubt Derek Shelton gets another manager job in MLB once he gets canned, whenever that happens. (hopefully soon)
 

DJ Spinoza

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I don't have much desire to defend Shelton, but I do think the collapse is more the mark of players simply being bad and/or failing in big spots. If Holderman and Bednar do their jobs, we're 4-6 or something rather than 0-10 and basically kept pace with the division, even if it still would seem bad.

If you can set aside the (rightful) hopelessness of wondering if we'll ever win again right now, then the next 10 games are Seattle, Texas, and Cincy. None are pushovers but they are winnable, and not playing like the best teams in MLB which is when we caught Arizona and San Diego.

I think where I'm at is that the best case scenario is a Haines scapegoat. I don't care much either way about Shelton, but the major thing that gives me pause is that if he's canned, that's cover for the managerial search being vaulted way out of proportion rather than the very obvious fact that the roster needs major upgrades and a serious investment of cash -- 50 million plus.

Whatever they do with the coaches is almost irrelevant because that kind of investment is not happening. The only way I can see things being worse than they are right now is if there's a major injury to one of the important SPs. If I were in charge, I would give Skenes 2 or 3 more normal starts and then ramp him down to finish off his rookie campaign (suddenly going to 0 is apparently also bad for injuries).
 
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Coastal Kev

There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Feb 16, 2013
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All those years of trading for prospects and draft picks and their minor league system if void of any home-grown hitters.

The problem runs very deep. I think Shelton is below average as a manager (also has a poser creeper vibe), but he ranks way down the chart of blame in my opinion.

NUKE NUTTING.........It's all a giant scam perpetrated on fans of Pittsburgh by MLb.
 

MrBrightside

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May 5, 2010
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The collapse makes a Skenes shut down feel inevitable. Given Keller’s second annual second half fade and Jones still not being back, the one strength of this roster may not be for much longer. Losing 90+ is a very real possibility.
 

BusinessGoose

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Richard

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The thing is, if the Pirates spend 110 million, they would be wildcard competitive and probably challenge for a division or title AND still make some money. That's a 40M this offseason.

They won't do that. They don't care. Do what I did - I gave up my season tickets in 2015. When I got to a high executive level in my company I got rid of our luxury box and season tickets and bought a penguin box and steeler/pitt tickets last year (able to wrest control from the old heads who remember Bob Prince). They won't get a cent of my or my companies' money.

I've long said everyone should stop going and stop going for the entirety of a season or two if you want the Nuttings out. Or, talking with politicians, there's gonna be some serious backlash about renewing the Pirates lease in 2030.

Lastly, in somewhat knowing Bob personally, he is laughing everyday (well, not really, he doesn't laugh) taking your money and your passion. It's simply a cash creation machine for him to continue to be liquid for his other, more profitable ventures.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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The thing is, if the Pirates spend 110 million, they would be wildcard competitive and probably challenge for a division or title AND still make some money. That's a 40M this offseason.

They won't do that. They don't care. Do what I did - I gave up my season tickets in 2015. When I got to a high executive level in my company I got rid of our luxury box and season tickets and bought a penguin box and steeler/pitt tickets last year (able to wrest control from the old heads who remember Bob Prince). They won't get a cent of my or my companies' money.

I've long said everyone should stop going and stop going for the entirety of a season or two if you want the Nuttings out. Or, talking with politicians, there's gonna be some serious backlash about renewing the Pirates lease in 2030.

Lastly, in somewhat knowing Bob personally, he is laughing everyday (well, not really, he doesn't laugh) taking your money and your passion. It's simply a cash creation machine for him to continue to be liquid for his other, more profitable ventures.

Bingo.

And wasting energy typing out or speaking drivel as to who's most to blame below Nutting, is a fool's errand.

I want desperately to have winning baseball in this city but MLB and Nutting have the Pirates set up to be a cash cow for Nutting and feeder program for the big market clubs.

If they'll move Oakland, they'll move Pittsburgh. Oakland has a lot more success than us since 1979.

This franchise is gone after 2030.
 

Factorial

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Bingo.

And wasting energy typing out or speaking drivel as to who's most to blame below Nutting, is a fool's errand.

I want desperately to have winning baseball in this city but MLB and Nutting have the Pirates set up to be a cash cow for Nutting and feeder program for the big market clubs.

If they'll move Oakland, they'll move Pittsburgh. Oakland has a lot more success than us since 1979.

This franchise is gone after 2030.

Where are they going to move after 2030?
 

Richard

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Feb 8, 2012
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Bingo.

And wasting energy typing out or speaking drivel as to who's most to blame below Nutting, is a fool's errand.

I want desperately to have winning baseball in this city but MLB and Nutting have the Pirates set up to be a cash cow for Nutting and feeder program for the big market clubs.

If they'll move Oakland, they'll move Pittsburgh. Oakland has a lot more success than us since 1979.

This franchise is gone after 2030.
I know, somewhat, on the Pittsburgh political side, what the ask is going to be to renew the lease - namely, public publishing the Pirates financials, especially accurate liquidity ratios. I know that won't be provided. Unless city council and the party controlling the county commissioner's office changes, this is going to be the ask and they will not budge.
 
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ImporterExporter

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I know, somewhat, on the Pittsburgh political side, what the ask is going to be to renew the lease - namely, public publishing the Pirates financials, especially accurate liquidity ratios. I know that won't be provided. Unless city council and the party controlling the county commissioner's office changes, this is going to be the ask and they will not budge.

Great to hear. I loathe politics at this point of my life (40) but given how much money the taxpayer dolled out for this farce, they should essentially tell Nutting that unless he sells the team, the franchise can move. I know there would be a political hit to some degree (don't think it would as bad as some would make it out to be) and economic but you cannot ask taxpayers to go down the same path as they did 25 years ago. The city is much, much more vibrant and white collar today. The living standard in and around the city has improved greatly and losing a baseball team that rarely wins is not going to wreck that growth.

There was a fairly recent economic study done for the Pittsburgh area, that asserted the Pirates (Nutting) are rolling in the cash and the long standing notion that they're operating on a shoestring budget is absurd. Obviously, they aren't pulling in cash like the Yankees and Dodgers, but they don't have to. Those franchises just subsidize teams like Pittsburgh.
 
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Richard

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Great to hear. I loathe politics at this point of my life (40) but given how much money the taxpayer dolled out for this farce, they should essentially tell Nutting that unless he sells the team, the franchise can move. I know there would be a political hit to some degree (don't think it would as bad as some would make it out to be) and economic but you cannot ask taxpayers to go down the same path as they did 25 years ago. The city is much, much more vibrant and white collar today. The living standard in and around the city has improved greatly and losing a baseball team that rarely wins is not going to wreck that growth.

There was a fairly recent economic study done for the Pittsburgh area, that asserted the Pirates (Nutting) are rolling in the cash and the long standing notion that they're operating on a shoestring budget is absurd. Obviously, they aren't pulling in cash like the Yankees and Dodgers, but they don't have to. Those franchises just subsidize teams like Pittsburgh.
Pirates could support 120-140M payroll and make decent money - keeping the operation budget exactly the same as it is now - but they will never do that. I mean, would you throw away 40-60M in CASH each year? Don't care what the balance sheet says (of course he has loans to be repaid to lower taxes yadda yadda).

Hell, if we had an owner who didn't care about making money just not losing too much money, we could spend 160-180M for a couple seasons.

Won't happen. Won't win a world series and it'll be 45 dollars next season for chicken fingers.

Anyway, I am off my soap box.
 

DanielPlainview

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Apr 28, 2009
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It's just wild that this organization can't develop hitting, like at all. Every single guy that comes through the system flails once they hit the big leagues. Reynolds is our best pure hitter and he spent most of his development in San Francisco and is otherwise an anomaly. Something is fundamentally wrong in A-AA.
 
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TooManyHumans

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It's just wild that this organization can't develop hitting, like at all. Every single guy that comes through the system flails once they hit the big leagues. Reynolds is our best pure hitter and he spent most of his development in San Francisco and is otherwise an anomaly. Something is fundamentally wrong in A-AA.
Yep, and this is why I am not as concerned about the payroll as others are. We are not competing regardless of the payroll unless something radically changes with regards to hitting in this organization. They cannot identify or develop hitters. If they spend more it will be to bring in bums like BDLC.
 

TimmyD

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The Pirates are in year 5 of a rebuild, but have the 20th ranked prospect pool in baseball… and yes I know they called up an elite prospect in Skenes which probably took the ranking down a bit… but in year 5 you would think they would have had more than 1 elite prospect to call up. It’s bad from the top down. Nutting is cheap and handcuffs his GM. The deadline was proof of this. I mean this team was in the hunt and he didn’t allow his GM to add payroll to the team. It had to be even money in and out. That’s absolutely ridiculous. The GM is also just bad in his own right at making moves. The manager believes that this is just all bad luck and the team is playing fine.. It’s just an all around joke of an organization.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Unsurprisingly had to go back quite a ways for this one. I've mostly said my piece with a couple of long posts last night, so I'll try to keep this recap as brief as possible and then enjoy the off day while we wait for a massive series this weekend.

Starting record: 48-48
Record over stretch: 7-5
Ending record: 55-53


I'm pretty content with my preview from last time. I thought we needed 7-5 and we managed to get 7-5. We ended on a sour note after wasting an opportunity for 8-4 and a sweep of the Astros to propel momentum into the new "most important games of the year", but I don't think we need to let that drag us down too much.

Getting out of Houston with a series win while having Falter's first start back and a YOLO spot start as the rotation gets resettled is pretty great. And perhaps even better, Falter showed signs that he might be reliable down the stretch. This is getting ahead of myself, but if you can depend more and more on him and Ortiz, that's a pretty big x-factor to the equation, which is effectively that we need to win all the games that Skenes and Keller start. Both of them being dependable could alleviate some of the pressure when we inevitably don't win one of Skenes/Keller's games, and provide the possibility for a nice little run. It lets Marco be a hopeful innings eater as much as possible, and maybe we can get creative by pushing Burrows or Ashcraft up for a two-headed monster type start once or twice.

The last thing I'll say by way of recap is that I think it's not an overstatement to say that pulling out/being gifted the win on Sunday in Arizona and then doing the same on Monday in Houston probably saved the season. If we had gotten swept and then lost Skenes' start for a 4-game skid, I don't know that we even do the small buying that we did. Maybe we still pick up BDLC but instead of adding IKF, we dump Perez's salary and trade Chapman for interesting prospects who don't debut until 2025 or beyond.

We've all said our piece and then some about the deadline, so I won't touch on that here. I feel somewhat vindicated in my various speculations about Kyle Stowers, specifically for Priester, though it looks like he was more of a throw-in for Miami. I will be curious to see how he performs. Part of me does wonder if we could have gotten a similar package for Falter, but Rogers has a much better track record. I think the deadline could be more exciting if we got aggressive and gave Yorke a callup in August, but neither him or Cook is on the 40-man so I do not expect it unless there's some more injuries or Gonzales is done for the year and goes on the 60-day IL.

Looking ahead: 3 vs. ARI, 3 vs. SDP (6 home) + 3 vs. LAD, 3 vs. SDP (6 road)
We have a very symmetrical upcoming schedule to the one we had last time, facing off against all playoff teams and starting with a short home stand before going out on the road for an equally short home stand.

I said a few times last night that I think anyone would gladly take a repeat performance of 7-5 in this upcoming stretch. The Padres are in great form since the break, so the games against them take on some extra importance. Unless I am not looking at things right, I believe neither Keller nor Skenes will face them at all with how the schedule works, which is certainly going to amplify Falter, Ortiz, and Gonzales, because the Padres look to have a firm grasp on one of the WC spots and their schedule is not too tough.

I don't want to get too much into playoff prognostication and guessing here, other than to say that we just need to keep winning for the time being. This is obvious to say, but I think a divisional push is both in the cards and maybe more feasible than leapfrogging several good teams. Milwaukee didn't do a ton at the deadline and have really been scuffling -- their fan base is worried. I am curious to see how the division looks in the next set of games, but we need to take care of our own business.

To wrap up, I think we again need 7-5 here. 6-6 or even 5-7 probably holds enough ground, but it makes everything harder. If we can get 7-5, I really think we'll be 3-4 games back in the division and at worst 1.5-2 back in the WC, but more likely in or tied with somebody.

Without getting too granular, I see these games as needing a win in the Dbacks series, a win in the Dodgers series, and a W-L in SDP. The x-factor is if we can pull off a sweep of the Dbacks given that we have home field advantage and a pretty decent pitching advantage in all the games. Tomorrow's game is massive: we hit Pfaadt very well in Arizona, but Perez basically singlehandedly took us out of the game. He's capable of bouncing back and shutting us down, so the rematch will be significant.

If we can pick up the win, we'll have the wind at our backs and I might revise what I said above to say 7-5 is the baseline, but 8-4 is really within reason if we pull off a sweep and carry the momentum with some consistency. I think the Dodgers are beatable and that they are not going to rush Mookie Betts back from a hand injury to face us (he's taking batting practice). The only wrinkle there is that the Padres are starting to put pressure on them in the division, so I'll say here that the added formula for us is that we want the Dodgers playing well: handle business and sweep the A's, then have a dog fight against Philly that they win just before us, giving them more like a 6-7 game cushion heading into our series if we are able to beat the Padres early next week.

Barring a skid, all the games are going to have intensity from here on out. I agree with most of the sentiment that the deadline was the bare minimum, but from now on, hope springs eternal. Here's to IKF returning tomorrow night and kicking off a stretch run in which he's hitting .340, while Bryan De La Cruz gets scorching hot playing meaningful games and being inserted into a prime RBI spot!
Had to go digging a while back for this, almost solely out of duty, but I was curious to glance through my "Looking ahead" because I knew it would read like it was from a different era.

Starting record: 55-53
Record over stretch: 1-11
Ending record: 56-64


We went 1-11 over the final part of the major gauntlet of this post-ASB stretch. The season is effectively over, and barring some kind of miracle turnaround or other angle I can find, I think so are my breakdown/recaps/previews.

The state of the team is so bad that I will confess to barely even being able to track the box scores while these games were on. Some of that was due to even less interest in being bothered with the west coast time difference, but it's also just not a fun watch for obvious reasons.

While many "what went wrongs" are flying, I think a simpler story within this set of games is that Colin Holderman and David Bednar cost us the entire season. We should have won the Arizona series and you can make an argument that we should have swept it. The home Padres series was very winnable and the Dodgers series should have at worst been 1-2.

Even this final Padres road series had two "baseball losses" in the first two games that were winnable, but the wheels had come off. For all the other faults of the team and ways that this current spell might continue (even if it's more of a 3-7 type 10-game stretch), the bullpen failed while the offense mostly held up its end of the bargain.

I haven't paid a lot of attention to the thread recently, but elsewhere I have seen some takes along the lines of Shelton losing the clubhouse, and I don't think that really holds up, unless it comes out that guys are getting in fights or other stuff like that. I think a part of the team just went to shit and the razor thin margin that everything was being held up by could not withstand it. Other, better teams were able to go for the throat in order to pile up very easy wins, even when the teams themselves weren't firing on all cylinders (I would exclude the Diamondbacks from this, but despite the Padres winning a lot, I don't think they have really been that imposing... we should have won 3-4 of the games, and they got gifted wins by Miami).

Looking ahead: 3 vs. SEA (3 home), 3 vs. TEX (3 road) + 4 vs. CIN, 3 vs. CHC (7 home)
I'm including this purely for perfunctory reasons and in case there's some kind of miracle turnaround that makes the Cleveland series at the turn of the month actually mean anything at all besides "will this be Skenes' last start of 2024"?

It's a weird yo-yoing of games, as we're home to maybe recuperate and then on the road quickly and back home again for a long stretch.

The only path to meaningful September games is an immediate turnaround. All four of these opponents are beatable, but it's more likely that we serve as fodder for the AL teams to try and claw back into it -- Seattle badly needs wins to keep pace, though Texas is basically out of it. Then it will be divisional dogfights against Chicago and Cincinnati who are both basically out of the race like us, but also like us, might be able to seize something by rattling off a ton of wins.

Basically what it looks like is that there's one WC spot up for grabs between Atlanta, SF, NYM, and then all of the NL Central non-Brewers teams, though we've shot ourselves in the foot by not being able to just lose some series instead of getting swept in all of them, as we have an extra 3 games to make up.

When you factor in the likelihood of Skenes just being ramped down, uncertainty around Jones, who knows around Keller... it all adds up to the logical thing being to just secure losses and recoup the best possible draft lottery position again, especially since some teams are gonna get screwed by the new rules, so if we finish where we are at or worse, there's a decent chance we hop into the top 6.

To put a pin in this, we need to completely turn our fate around, and then we'll have to do it again with a similar stretch afterwards. It's no exaggeration to say that it will basically take "best record in baseball" to dig out of the hole we dug in this last stretch. For the next 13, I think it would take something like this: win the Seattle series, run the table against Texas, and drop 1 game on the long homestand. That would be 11-2, i.e. a 67-66 record in two weeks on August 29th. If you do that, then there are 29 games left to maybe try and get to 85 wins or so, with 7 being against the Marlins and Nationals, and a good chunk against divisional teams.

It won't happen, and I am not sure there's much intrigue for 2025 to be seen in the coming weeks. I guess maybe we should shuffle some guys off the roster and get a look at guys like Yorke and Cook, and maybe we'll see Ashcraft get an MLB cup of coffee. What a shitshow everything turned into.
 

TooManyHumans

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May 4, 2018
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The Pirates are in year 5 of a rebuild, but have the 20th ranked prospect pool in baseball… and yes I know they called up an elite prospect in Skenes which probably took the ranking down a bit… but in year 5 you would think they would have had more than 1 elite prospect to call up. It’s bad from the top down. Nutting is cheap and handcuffs his GM. The deadline was proof of this. I mean this team was in the hunt and he didn’t allow his GM to add payroll to the team. It had to be even money in and out. That’s absolutely ridiculous. The GM is also just bad in his own right at making moves. The manager believes that this is just all bad luck and the team is playing fine.. It’s just an all around joke of an organization.
Baseball America has them as the 27th ranked minor league. They have produced no hitters and there are none on the way. Cherington et all are complete failures and have produced nothing in their 5 years here except a .412 winning percentage.
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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I hate it when people try to simplify the Pirates issues to Bob Nutting, not because Nutting isn’t terrible but because it completely ignores the bad job Cherington and Shelton have done. Nutting is a cheap shit, but Nutting didn’t sign Perez, Taylor and Chapman for $22 million combined. Nutting didn’t sign Tellez to be their 1B over trading assets for Michael Busch. Nutting didn’t trade for De La Cruz over paying the price for Chisholm.

Nutting is an obvious handicap on this team but blaming everything on him is just scapegoating him and ignoring the shitty management they’ve had.
 

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