OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Dull days of July

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Goalie_Bob

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Had to go digging a while back for this, almost solely out of duty, but I was curious to glance through my "Looking ahead" because I knew it would read like it was from a different era.

Starting record: 55-53
Record over stretch: 1-11
Ending record: 56-64


We went 1-11 over the final part of the major gauntlet of this post-ASB stretch. The season is effectively over, and barring some kind of miracle turnaround or other angle I can find, I think so are my breakdown/recaps/previews.

The state of the team is so bad that I will confess to barely even being able to track the box scores while these games were on. Some of that was due to even less interest in being bothered with the west coast time difference, but it's also just not a fun watch for obvious reasons.

While many "what went wrongs" are flying, I think a simpler story within this set of games is that Colin Holderman and David Bednar cost us the entire season. We should have won the Arizona series and you can make an argument that we should have swept it. The home Padres series was very winnable and the Dodgers series should have at worst been 1-2.

Even this final Padres road series had two "baseball losses" in the first two games that were winnable, but the wheels had come off. For all the other faults of the team and ways that this current spell might continue (even if it's more of a 3-7 type 10-game stretch), the bullpen failed while the offense mostly held up its end of the bargain.

I haven't paid a lot of attention to the thread recently, but elsewhere I have seen some takes along the lines of Shelton losing the clubhouse, and I don't think that really holds up, unless it comes out that guys are getting in fights or other stuff like that. I think a part of the team just went to shit and the razor thin margin that everything was being held up by could not withstand it. Other, better teams were able to go for the throat in order to pile up very easy wins, even when the teams themselves weren't firing on all cylinders (I would exclude the Diamondbacks from this, but despite the Padres winning a lot, I don't think they have really been that imposing... we should have won 3-4 of the games, and they got gifted wins by Miami).

Looking ahead: 3 vs. SEA (3 home), 3 vs. TEX (3 road) + 4 vs. CIN, 3 vs. CHC (7 home)
I'm including this purely for perfunctory reasons and in case there's some kind of miracle turnaround that makes the Cleveland series at the turn of the month actually mean anything at all besides "will this be Skenes' last start of 2024"?

It's a weird yo-yoing of games, as we're home to maybe recuperate and then on the road quickly and back home again for a long stretch.

The only path to meaningful September games is an immediate turnaround. All four of these opponents are beatable, but it's more likely that we serve as fodder for the AL teams to try and claw back into it -- Seattle badly needs wins to keep pace, though Texas is basically out of it. Then it will be divisional dogfights against Chicago and Cincinnati who are both basically out of the race like us, but also like us, might be able to seize something by rattling off a ton of wins.

Basically what it looks like is that there's one WC spot up for grabs between Atlanta, SF, NYM, and then all of the NL Central non-Brewers teams, though we've shot ourselves in the foot by not being able to just lose some series instead of getting swept in all of them, as we have an extra 3 games to make up.

When you factor in the likelihood of Skenes just being ramped down, uncertainty around Jones, who knows around Keller... it all adds up to the logical thing being to just secure losses and recoup the best possible draft lottery position again, especially since some teams are gonna get screwed by the new rules, so if we finish where we are at or worse, there's a decent chance we hop into the top 6.

To put a pin in this, we need to completely turn our fate around, and then we'll have to do it again with a similar stretch afterwards. It's no exaggeration to say that it will basically take "best record in baseball" to dig out of the hole we dug in this last stretch. For the next 13, I think it would take something like this: win the Seattle series, run the table against Texas, and drop 1 game on the long homestand. That would be 11-2, i.e. a 67-66 record in two weeks on August 29th. If you do that, then there are 29 games left to maybe try and get to 85 wins or so, with 7 being against the Marlins and Nationals, and a good chunk against divisional teams.

It won't happen, and I am not sure there's much intrigue for 2025 to be seen in the coming weeks. I guess maybe we should shuffle some guys off the roster and get a look at guys like Yorke and Cook, and maybe we'll see Ashcraft get an MLB cup of coffee. What a shitshow everything turned into.

Always appreciate your writeups. They are level headed and succinct in terms of where the team is at that point in time and where they need to go.

Do you think they will bring up Chandler or Barco or Burrows for a start? Yorke and Cook should definitely come up. Gorski should be brought up though maybe he has already established himslef as a AAAA player.

My thought is they leave Davis in the minors in hopes it brings up his trade potential. I guess he has hit ok since being sent down with a slash line of .364/.491/.855.
 

ImporterExporter

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I hate it when people try to simplify the Pirates issues to Bob Nutting, not because Nutting isn’t terrible but because it completely ignores the bad job Cherington and Shelton have done. Nutting is a cheap shit, but Nutting didn’t sign Perez, Taylor and Chapman for $22 million combined. Nutting didn’t sign Tellez to be their 1B over trading assets for Michael Busch. Nutting didn’t trade for De La Cruz over paying the price for Chisholm.

Nutting is an obvious handicap on this team but blaming everything on him is just scapegoating him and ignoring the shitty management they’ve had.

I hate it when people can't seem to grasp that Nutting hires top management. So, if Nutting is the guy putting the Huntington and Cherington's into their positions, then yeah, it goes back to Bob. All of it.

What incentive does he have to win? Nobody seems able to answer that.
 
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bigdaddyk88

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I don’t see why they wouldn’t bring up york and cook in September. Dfa Grandal if you need a 40 man roster spot. Might as well let the AAA arms make a few starts in September especially if you shut down Skenes and Keller Jones.

Yorke CF
Ikf 2nd
Cruz
Reynolds DH
Davis C
Cook LF
Bart 1st
 

Empoleon8771

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I hate it when people can't seem to grasp that Nutting hires top management. So, if Nutting is the guy putting the Huntington and Cherington's into their positions, then yeah, it goes back to Bob. All of it.

What incentive does he have to win? Nobody seems able to answer that.

That's just dumb logic, it's exactly the point I was making about scapegoating Nutting for every problem this team has. Blaming Nutting for Cherington doing a terrible job is like blaming Mario for Ron Hextall doing a terrible job. It makes literally zero sense.

Cherington gets far too little criticism for the mess this team is in right now. People just simplify it to "Nutting won't spend money" while conveniently not mentioning how awful Cherington has spent the money available to him, or how awful Cherington has utilized the assets he inherited. And this doesn't even begin to touch on Shelton either.
 
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ChaosAgent

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I hate it when people try to simplify the Pirates issues to Bob Nutting, not because Nutting isn’t terrible but because it completely ignores the bad job Cherington and Shelton have done. Nutting is a cheap shit, but Nutting didn’t sign Perez, Taylor and Chapman for $22 million combined. Nutting didn’t sign Tellez to be their 1B over trading assets for Michael Busch. Nutting didn’t trade for De La Cruz over paying the price for Chisholm.

Nutting is an obvious handicap on this team but blaming everything on him is just scapegoating him and ignoring the shitty management they’ve had.

The people driving hardest at this are the Cherington apologists. The people who somehow give him credit for not just 1 but 2 world series' in Boston. One of which happened 3 years after he was canned.

Hanley Ramirez, Rusney Castillo and Pablo Sandoval. That is who BC spent money on when he had money to spend.

I'm not saying he is a total idiot like Littlefield. But he has a track record of being wrong, a lot. Call it gut instincts, call it whatever. There are smart people in white collar jobs everywhere that have a tendency to be wrong.
 

Empoleon8771

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The people driving hardest at this are the Cherington apologists. The people who somehow give him credit for not just 1 but 2 world series' in Boston. One of which happened 3 years after he was canned.

Hanley Ramirez, Rusney Castillo and Pablo Sandoval. That is who BC spent money on when he had money to spend.

I'm not saying he is a total idiot like Littlefield. But he has a track record of being wrong, a lot. Call it gut instincts, call it whatever. There are smart people in white collar jobs everywhere that have a tendency to be wrong.

I don't even think it's that, I just think it's people who want to blame Nutting for any issue this team has. I despite Nutting but Nutting isn't the one running this team on a day to day basis.

Nutting is putting any GM of this team in a bind with how to run this team, simply because he won't let this team spend money. But that doesn't mean this team can't be competitive with the restrictions Nutting has on this team. It's not competitive because Cherington has been shit for them.

It would be one thing if this team was built well but just didn't have the top end talent to compete with other teams. This team is a mess with a bad farm system, no depth at the MLB level and only 1 reliable hitter.
 

ChaosAgent

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I don't even think it's that, I just think it's people who want to blame Nutting for any issue this team has. I despite Nutting but Nutting isn't the one running this team on a day to day basis.

Nutting is putting any GM of this team in a bind with how to run this team, simply because he won't let this team spend money. But that doesn't mean this team can't be competitive with the restrictions Nutting has on this team. It's not competitive because Cherington has been shit for them.

It would be one thing if this team was built well but just didn't have the top end talent to compete with other teams. This team is a mess with a bad farm system, no depth at the MLB level and only 1 reliable hitter.

It is possible that the penumbra of Bob Nutting somehow infects the players. I can't 100% rule out the psychology of the organization is broken.

At the same time, Cherington and Shelton MUST walk the plank soon (now?). This thing has totally stalled.
 
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Empoleon8771

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I'm not going to beat this dead horse regarding Cherington too much, but I think the 1B situation sums it up perfectly. Santana allegedly wanted to come back to the Pirates and was willing to take a paycut from his $6.75 million salary from 2023. Instead, the Pirates went dumpster diving for Tellez to sign him for $3.2 million. Santana ended up signing with the Twins for $5.25 million and has been clearly better than Tellez this year:

Tellez: .690 OPS, 93 OPS+, -0.2 bWAR
Santana: .754 OPS, 110 OPS+, 2.0 bWAR

That's not "Bob Nutting isn't willing to spend money on this team". That's Ben Cherington making a dogshit roster decision when you had a good player who wanted to come play for you. I'm not even meaning this to rally against Tellez, he had that amazing run for the team and isn't a terrible player. But it's another golden case of Cherington just making completely ass backwards roster decisions that hurt the team.

Another stat I just saw posted:

"while the Pirates rank fourth in the majors in hitter strikeouts, Class AA Altoona leads its league in Ks, Class A Greensboro's second, and Class A Bradenton's first"

This is Cherington's Pittsburgh Pirates.
 

BusinessGoose

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Yup, i remember that santana didn't really want to get traded but was being professional about it and had expressed he wanted to come back.

Yes he's old, but, would have made more sense to go with what you know, especially when that veteran was interested in not leaving here.

Just odd roster moves.
 

ChaosAgent

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I'm not going to beat this dead horse regarding Cherington too much, but I think the 1B situation sums it up perfectly. Santana allegedly wanted to come back to the Pirates and was willing to take a paycut from his $6.75 million salary from 2023. Instead, the Pirates went dumpster diving for Tellez to sign him for $3.2 million. Santana ended up signing with the Twins for $5.25 million and has been clearly better than Tellez this year:

Tellez: .690 OPS, 93 OPS+, -0.2 bWAR
Santana: .754 OPS, 110 OPS+, 2.0 bWAR

That's not "Bob Nutting isn't willing to spend money on this team". That's Ben Cherington making a dogshit roster decision when you had a good player who wanted to come play for you. I'm not even meaning this to rally against Tellez, he had that amazing run for the team and isn't a terrible player. But it's another golden case of Cherington just making completely ass backwards roster decisions that hurt the team.

Another stat I just saw posted:

"while the Pirates rank fourth in the majors in hitter strikeouts, Class AA Altoona leads its league in Ks, Class A Greensboro's second, and Class A Bradenton's first"

This is Cherington's Pittsburgh Pirates.

I think the state of the MILB system is the most damning indictment in Cherington. While some of the rankings of course are due to missing Skenes, he was supposed to bring the drafting and development guy. Our minors are a wasteland for hitting talent, although I think converting Priester into Yorke was a shrewd move. I don't buy Nutting's cheapness impacting their development. Nutting knows that the ROI on that is infinitely greater than on the ML roster.
 
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ImporterExporter

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The GM is hired by the owner. That means, if the GM sucks, it's because the owner (it's really a 3rd party firm that sorts these applicants out because Nutting doesn't actually know the sport) can't identify quality baseball people. So, a subpar GM is hired, given subpar resources, who in turns hires subpar managers and players, so on and so forth.

It is incredibly painful for me to watch fellow human beings not grasp such simple facts.

Firing Cherington and everyone else will almost surely change nothing. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, but don't expect a different result.

Nutting has never overseen a playoff series win. People know how long he's been the owner. If you can't singularly identify what the problem is, there is no point in discussing this matter further. Go back to hoping in one hand and shitting in the other and see which one fills up first.

And he has money to spend. He deliberately doesn't. That's on 1 person. Period.
 

bigdaddyk88

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If your giving 40 million to spend in FA you have to hit on it. The margin is low for small market teams.
The fact they didn’t flip Chapman at the deadline makes no sense he was signed to be traded.
 

Ugene Magic

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Oct 17, 2008
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I'm not going to beat this dead horse regarding Cherington too much, but I think the 1B situation sums it up perfectly. Santana allegedly wanted to come back to the Pirates and was willing to take a paycut from his $6.75 million salary from 2023. Instead, the Pirates went dumpster diving for Tellez to sign him for $3.2 million. Santana ended up signing with the Twins for $5.25 million and has been clearly better than Tellez this year:

Tellez: .690 OPS, 93 OPS+, -0.2 bWAR
Santana: .754 OPS, 110 OPS+, 2.0 bWAR

That's not "Bob Nutting isn't willing to spend money on this team". That's Ben Cherington making a dogshit roster decision when you had a good player who wanted to come play for you. I'm not even meaning this to rally against Tellez, he had that amazing run for the team and isn't a terrible player. But it's another golden case of Cherington just making completely ass backwards roster decisions that hurt the team.

Another stat I just saw posted:

"while the Pirates rank fourth in the majors in hitter strikeouts, Class AA Altoona leads its league in Ks, Class A Greensboro's second, and Class A Bradenton's first"

This is Cherington's Pittsburgh Pirates.

The team has an internal cap number set by Bob Nutting. How do we know this? He wanted money in/money out at the deadline.

Can Cherington do better with what he's provided? Who knows. So Santana at 5.25 over Tellez might not have been in the cards and fill out the lineup on that set internal cap.

Everything starts and stops with one name. -Bob Nutting
 

Empoleon8771

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The team has an internal cap number set by Bob Nutting. How do we know this? He wanted money in/money out at the deadline.

Can Cherington do better with what he's provided? Who knows. So Santana at 5.25 over Tellez might not have been in the cards and fill out the lineup on that set internal cap.

Everything starts and stops with one name. -Bob Nutting

Maybe Cherington shouldn't have paid $22 million for Chapman, Perez and Taylor then. They signed all 3 of those guys after signing Tellez.

Yes, this team has an internal cap. No, that doesn't excuse Cherington's dogshit usage of the money he had available.
 

Empoleon8771

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The GM is hired by the owner. That means, if the GM sucks, it's because the owner (it's really a 3rd party firm that sorts these applicants out because Nutting doesn't actually know the sport) can't identify quality baseball people. So, a subpar GM is hired, given subpar resources, who in turns hires subpar managers and players, so on and so forth.

It is incredibly painful for me to watch fellow human beings not grasp such simple facts.

Firing Cherington and everyone else will almost surely change nothing. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, but don't expect a different result.

Nutting has never overseen a playoff series win. People know how long he's been the owner. If you can't singularly identify what the problem is, there is no point in discussing this matter further. Go back to hoping in one hand and shitting in the other and see which one fills up first.

And he has money to spend. He deliberately doesn't. That's on 1 person. Period.

Everyone understands that Nutting is at the top and the organization as a whole is a reflection of him. We all know that. The disagreement here is excusing Cherington and Shelton because "it's all Bob Nutting's fault anyway".

This team can be competitive while owned by Nutting. How do we know that? Because they've been competitive before while owned by Nutting. They're not competitive right now because Cherington has done a terrible job in his 5 years as GM of the Pirates. Literally all he has done was luck into a generational talent SP in Skenes.
 
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Empoleon8771

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In a slightly more positive discussion, I think the idea of Bart at 1B is a really interesting discussion to have in the off-season. He's not horrible defensively, but he's only 31st percentile in defensive value for a catcher and is especially poor at blocking (13th percentile). It's absolutely not "unplayable" at catcher, but it's not that much better than Davis' metrics at catcher either.

The big concern I'd have with moving Bart to 1B is how long will his bat stay hot? There is far more patience for a C that is struggling to hit than a 1B that is struggling to hit, so Bart would really need to be a consistent MLB hitter to have success at 1B. If he maintains his expected slash line from this year (.246/.338/.454 slash line), I think he'd be a better 1B than anyone this team could realistically pull off. But that's a monumentally sized if.

I would support the idea of getting Bart used to 1B so he can be a 1B option in games that Endy is catching, but with the DH spot, I'm not sure I see that as necessary.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Always appreciate your writeups. They are level headed and succinct in terms of where the team is at that point in time and where they need to go.

Do you think they will bring up Chandler or Barco or Burrows for a start? Yorke and Cook should definitely come up. Gorski should be brought up though maybe he has already established himslef as a AAAA player.

My thought is they leave Davis in the minors in hopes it brings up his trade potential. I guess he has hit ok since being sent down with a slash line of .364/.491/.855.
Thanks, I appreciate your contributions to the thread too.

To be honest, I haven't started thinking that far ahead. Just sort of wallowing in the misery of the current mess.

I think Burrows may get a look with the MLB team if he can put a few more solid appearances together. He had already been establishing himself in AAA, so I don't know that he has a lot left to prove there. I've been under the mistaken impression that Ashcraft could get a brief showing, but it seems like he's been injured for a while and thus there's no chance, even though he's on the 40-man.

The 40-man consideration might be what decides some of the other guys, combined with what's going on with the MLB staff. Since Burrows is on it, he feels like a lock to me, though realistically there are several ways to open up a couple of spots, either with DFAs or putting guys like Gonzales or Palacios on the 60-day IL if they aren't coming back. Yorke and Cook will need spots (as would Gorski), but just to list some obvious spots, Cheng, Williams, Ryan, Heller, German could all be DFA'd.

Davis is a separate and interesting case. I think you raise a good possibility, especially because it's not that easy to see where he'd get playing time on the MLB team. I actually lean towards wanting to see him get 3-4 weeks of ABs somehow, but it doesn't seem very straightforward.

The main reason I say that is because I don't think Bart is a starting catcher defensively. When you add in the fact that his bat looks real and we don't have a 1B anywhere in the mix for 2025, I think that makes sense for him. But it's also nearly impossible to imagine we'd go into 2025 with Davis and Endy as catchers 1a/1b, even if Bart played sometimes too. In short, trying to use Davis as trade bait makes a lot of sense. It's a topic for a different day but I think the whole situation with him has been bungled very bad, and that if he's traded, he might thrive elsewhere.
 

NewAgeOutlaw

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Cherrington has been horribly inefficient with the money he does have to spend and MLB has a systemic issue where the league is set up so the most profitable way to run a small market franchise is to do it as cheap as possible while collecting revenue sharing and gouging the people who do show up.

It isn't an either or. The entire method for small market teams to compete is to find market inefficiencies and most teams frankly don't underrate players like they used to.
 
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metalan2

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May 30, 2008
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I don't know how bad you have to be to not crack this lineup.

Davis and Suwinsky not being here means there really is little hope for either of them in the future to make any contributions at all.

Suwinsky is a better player than De la Cruz.
 

bigdaddyk88

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Apr 21, 2019
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I don't know how bad you have to be to not crack this lineup.

Davis and Suwinsky not being here means there really is little hope for either of them in the future to make any contributions at all.

Suwinsky is a better player than De la Cruz.
Jack is under 200 in AAA with 1 HR
 
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