OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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Yeah, I mean....... then do it. Use money to sign multiple pitchers, or use money to sign Benintendi or Haniger, or use money to pay a Reynolds extension. I don't fully think BC doesn't care about the image, so to the extent that he does, he has to see that the objective situation fully compels action, based on his own comments dating back into the season. No one is going to be satisfied by vague gestures like this.

(and it should probably be said that Gibson -- who basically everyone agrees would have been a fine depth option and 2nd starter -- reportedly chose the Orioles over an identical, unnamed offer)
 
Ah, didn't catch that, and agreed, I would have been fine with 5 or even 7, but at 10, might as well move that towards something longer term or better.



This is at least a good sign. I think anyone has earned the right to be maximally cynically until any actual signing takes place, but you just can't have the offseason unfolding the way that it is and then say this and like wait til mid-January to do nothing but sign Michael Pineda to a 2M deal or something.

I honestly think he needs to make the splash and go for Benintendi. It's as safe as you can get for a longer term investment and there still is very good upside there given his youth. It's a shame because what I'd love to see is Benintendi and then using some prospects to try and get Trevor Rogers from Miami, but I don't think we're a good matchup in that sense.

But something like Benintendi, and then Wacha on a modest deal and a lesser SP would go a long way towards backing up all this talk. Benintendi at 4/54, Wacha at 2/18, and Manea at 1/10 would boost the payroll above 80M and at least get the team in the vicinity of .500 on paper. Still need at least one catcher obviously, so there's no real way we're adding three guys at those super modest AAVs without it being truly shocking, but there's easily an ability to do Benintendi, Wacha, and then a cheap 2-3M veteran, with Perez likely not making much more than 2M or so. That's maybe 25M, with only 14M of it committed in years beyond 2024.
 
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I think they're going to end up keeping Reynolds for at least this year, even though they should trade him.


I'll throw some predictions out there.

Danny Duffy (LHP): 1 year, $4M with club option for $8M
Michael Lorenzen (RHSP): 1 year, $7M
Roberto Perez (C): 1 year, $4M
Odubel Herrera (OF): 2 years, $11M

Pirates trade Bryan Reynolds and Wil Crowe to New York Yankees for Jasson Dominguez, Clarke Schmidt, and Roderick Arias

Probably bad but I could see this going down.
 
I'll throw some predictions out there.

Danny Duffy (LHP): 1 year, $4M with club option for $8M
Michael Lorenzen (RHSP): 1 year, $7M
Roberto Perez (C): 1 year, $4M
Odubel Herrera (OF): 2 years, $11M

Pirates trade Bryan Reynolds and Wil Crowe to New York Yankees for Jasson Dominguez, Clarke Schmidt, and Roderick Arias

Probably bad but I could see this going down.

I think they wait on trading Reynolds to be honest. Cherington keeps talking about how this year is going to be a step forward and they want to improve, and trading Reynolds goes against that. Reynolds may want out, but the Pirates can tell him to just pound sand.

They should have traded him a year ago to avoid this mess, but they didn't.
 
I'll throw some predictions out there.

Danny Duffy (LHP): 1 year, $4M with club option for $8M
Michael Lorenzen (RHSP): 1 year, $7M
Roberto Perez (C): 1 year, $4M
Odubel Herrera (OF): 2 years, $11M

Pirates trade Bryan Reynolds and Wil Crowe to New York Yankees for Jasson Dominguez, Clarke Schmidt, and Roderick Arias

Probably bad but I could see this going down.

Starters
Contreras
Keller
Schmidt
Lorenzen
Ortiz
Brubaker
Starter/Reliever
Oviedo
Duffy
B. Wilson
Reliever
YDLS
Bednar
R. Stephenson
Holderman
Mears

Catcher
Perez
Infield
Santana
Choi
Cruz
Hayes
Castro
D. Castillo
Outfield
Bae
Suwinski
Mitchell
Herrera
Andujar
 
I think they wait on trading Reynolds to be honest. Cherington keeps talking about how this year is going to be a step forward and they want to improve, and trading Reynolds goes against that. Reynolds may want out, but the Pirates can tell him to just pound sand.

They should have traded him a year ago to avoid this mess, but they didn't.
I hear you - that trading him contradicts what they are clearly desperate to sell the fans this year which is 70-75 wins and progression after last year's atrophy.

But I can't recall of any instance of a player asking out of this organization so publicly. I think they can trade him and still try to improve. He wasn't so spectacular that we couldn't hit 70 wins without him.

As a fan, even setting aside my POV that the current regime is too mediocre to lead us to glory, Reynolds doesn't actually match up with our timeline anyway. I want them to trade him and then still try to improve because that will mean they've both upgraded the farm and the current team. Plus his value could easily decline if we either sucks in center again or we put Bae there and move him to left.
 
I hear you - that trading him contradicts what they are clearly desperate to sell the fans this year which is 70-75 wins and progression after last year's atrophy.

But I can't recall of any instance of a player asking out of this organization so publicly. I think they can trade him and still try to improve. He wasn't so spectacular that we couldn't hit 70 wins without him.

As a fan, even setting aside my POV that the current regime is too mediocre to lead us to glory, Reynolds doesn't actually match up with our timeline anyway. I want them to trade him and then still try to improve because that will mean they've both upgraded the farm and the current team. Plus his value could easily decline if we either sucks in center again or we put Bae there and move him to left.

I agree entirely and think he should be traded right now. I'm just skeptical they will.

I think moving Reynolds is more of an in-season move or a next year move. You'll get less for him, but I still think you can get a Dominguez caliber prospect as a headliner unless Reynolds crashes.
 
Waiting longer to move Reynolds decreases his value. He has no future with us. That's a fact. Been a fact.

BTW, you aren't getting Dominguez, right now. That shipped sailed after he was held entering 2022.

Deliberate sabotage of his value so that it will cost a big market club less to acquire.

Glad we locked up a guy who can't hit though as the current cornerstone of the franchise.
 
My hope for the off-season at this point:

1. Trade Reynolds for Dominguez, Pereira and Gomez. Dominguez and Pereira seem like they'll be future OFers, with my hope that Dominguez stays in CF and Pereira slides to RF. Gomez is more of a gamble, he missed a lot of time last year after getting elbow surgery in 2021 but he was dominant when he was healthy (2.49 ERA in 14 starts between A+ and AA). All of those guys are probably AA or higher players next year, so they should be MLB ready fairly soon.
2. Sign Bellinger to a 1 year deal to have him replace Reynolds. He's arguably one of the only viable CF and he'd have major opportunities to use next year as a springboard year to rebound his value.
3. Sign Heaney to a multi-year deal to have him be your main LHSP going forward. He had a solid year last year with the Dodgers and shouldn't be prohibitively expensive with his career inconsistencies. Sportrac has his value at $11.6 million, which I'd be comfortable with giving him on a 3 year deal. I'd also be happy with Quintana, but he's older and will cost about $2.5 million more a year.
4. Bring back Perez to be the starting C. No brainer to me.

I like the Benintendi idea, but I think he gets as strong or stronger offers from contenders than what the Pirates can reasonably offer.

Waiting longer to move Reynolds decreases his value. He has no future with us. That's a fact. Been a fact.

BTW, you aren't getting Dominguez, right now. That shipped sailed after he was held entering 2022.

Deliberate sabotage of his value so that it will cost a big market club less to acquire.

Glad we locked up a guy who can't hit though as the current cornerstone of the franchise.

Then the Yankees aren't getting Reynolds. You're either overrating Dominguez or underrating Reynolds. Dominguez has fallen off from where he has viewed last year and is now only a top-50 prospect. Fans opinions don't matter in reality, but a ton of Yankees fans have shown a complete willingness to trade Dominguez for Reynolds.

If Castillo with 1 arb year can bring back Noelvi Marte, Reynolds can bring back Dominguez.
 
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I like the idea of Lorenzen but I think he sticks where he's from in SoCal. I don't want any parts of Herrera - one domestic abuser in the OF is enough.

Mackey's latest tweets and replies make me more convinced that the big issue is term. I remain skeptical that the Pirates would have offered a pretty straight up 5 year, 80 million deal, which would be fair value that gives a raise in 2023 and covers the arbitration years fine and then 20+ a year for two FA years. If they made that offer with guaranteed money, I think they'd leak it.

But they could even make that offer and from Reynolds perspective, it might not be what he wants. The control years are guaranteed to an extent. He could get a boost with an extension, but if the trade off is 2/40M for free agency, it's easy to see how he assumes he'd beat that.

In short, it might mostly come down to timing. I think there's a big if in all of this, which is whether the Pirates got to that level, but going with what Heyman reported, it's either something in that ballpark or one of two things, IMO: there's some fudging in terms of the offer technically topping Hayes but not being fully guaranteed in some way, or the money is around there but the term is longer, and thus he never really gets to the 20M or so threshold in free agency that he deserves.


For the record, I'm mostly on the "trade Reynolds ASAP" bandwagon. I think his value has gone down since last year, obviously, but I don't think the comments mean anything for his current value. I don't know if BC will be able to get the impact headliner he wants, or in the case of perhaps the Dodgers, the collection of above average prospects that could be regulars at a number of positions.

If that's the case, then there needs to be an aggressive pivot to improving the team faster. It's not out of the question that the prospect waves and a supplemented roster could make a WC/playoff run for 24 and 25, and then in that case, you take the cost controlled performance with Reynolds and tag him with a QO and take the picks to keep the system stronger into the future.
 
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I have a hard time pinning down everything I'd like to see happen that's at least in the ballpark of reasonable because I'm a bit torn on Reynolds the more I sit with it. But to play the game...

1. Trade Reynolds if you can get one of the following packages (in this order): A) Moreno + supplementary pieces; B) Kirby, Brash, Kelenic, throw-in; C) Volpe, Pereira, low-level pitchers OR Dominguez, Cabrera or Peraza, Pereira, pitcher; D) Miller, Pages, two more; E) Rogers, Cabrera, two more /// If none of those premiums are met, revisit at the deadline.
2. Sign Quintana to a 3 year, 45 million contract. Pay the bit extra and "risk" a third guaranteed year. Quintana is the trifecta: veteran leadership, covers innings, established success at PNC Park. Even if he tapers off, I think he's still a valuable regular season pitcher in the third year. The third year is where I see the edge over other teams, though his AAV will be low enough that a team looking at sparse options might see it as the cost of doing business if they want to better improve their chances immediately. This is really priority #1 I hope happens this week, as I would put Benintendi as too much of a long shot for the "big" move.
3. If Reynolds is traded: sign Jackie Bradley Jr. for cheap. His better offensive years were when his walk rate was very good, so maybe he's the kind of player Haines can get right and back into positive overall value. If not, at least you have a good defender for LF and CF, and one use to some part-time play who wouldn't necessarily block young bats.
4. Sign Perez for 1 year, 2 million. The pitchers want it, so it's a no brainer unless he's not healthy enough. I think there's some risk here and would probably prefer the more upside play with someone like Alfaro, but it seems easy, and importantly if we're going to make even a modest signing or two, the price is right.

From there, harder to say. I think Wacha for 2 years would be a smart low-level investment, and either that or Manaea on his one year bounce back should be viable if it's not just hot air that we have the "flexibility" to sign two pitchers. Getting both Quintana to be a veteran anchor and Manaea on a pure upside play would balance the rotation nicely, so I think that's my preference and would surely cover most of any possible room to spend.

Bonus round is either Mancini for a slightly bigger cost, or Cutch on a similar, "let's get some veterans in the mix" type of vibe that Quintana would bring after also bringing Santana. Interestingly with Cutch, his speed is still very good and maybe a return after some years away to end his career would bring a spark. The trouble with both of these guys is that I'm not sure where their OF defense is at. Cutch at least would know PNC's LF, but I don't think that's even much of an option for Mancini, and in general, who is going to man LF is a fairly big concern, especially if Reynolds is gone (and even if Reynolds is here, you can imagine him not being very happy if he's shifted to LF, because that lowers his prospective value).
 
The extent to which people are underestimating what Reynolds is going to get paid is pretty amazing. Brandon Nimmo isn't half the player Reynolds is and is basically the same as age as Reynolds will be when he hits free agency and he's likely to get way more than what our board GM's are declaring as the "top dollar" for Reynolds. And seriously, he's not going to be here in 2023. This isn't 1968 and it isn't 1998. This was leaked for a reason and the idea that they'll just pull a "tough shit - you're under control for 3 more years" is comically naive.
 
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I'm still very skeptical. Reynolds might very well get paid when he hits free agency in another three years, but I want an argument if I am going to be convinced that some team will give him a huge extension. I cannot think of any analogous situation -- the most I can do is that a mid-payroll team might see it as an opportunity to save a bit relative to purely going after a player like him in free agency.

I am also not convinced by Reynolds vs. Nimmo. Nimmo's issue throughout his career has been the ability to stay on the field, which might limit him somewhat in free agency, but the market is scarce. I think Reynolds can stay in CF and can put up an overall more productive year than 2022 where he is somewhere in between his rookie year/2022 and 2021, which certainly looks like a peak career season. But he has to do it -- there's also a scenario where he's moved to LF and remains a very good, quality contributor who is subject to a little bit of streakiness.

It shouldn't need to be said that an 18-25 HR corner OF who also hits for average, walks, and doesn't strike out is still going to cash in. However, Nimmo has an even more clearly defined role on a team as an elite table setter. Reynolds at that type of very good production is still a crucial contributor on a contending team, and I would say similar to a Brantley type, if he can become even more contact oriented. It's not a perfect comparison, but I think you can look at Brantley's age 27-32 seasons and see a spread of what Reynolds might do over that time. I really feel that any team is just going to let him prove it over the cheap team control seasons. He might get to more of the Springer line on a better team or in a better hitter's park, but Springer strikes me as having a clear level more in terms of power.


As for whether he will be traded, I think it's going to happen but I am again not convinced or as sure. Cherington has made some very mediocre or bad trades with impact type players, which might mean he'll do it again, but I think with this specific situation, he's only going to do it again if he's truly forced to keep holding on and the years of control dwindle.

I think there's a chance Reynolds plays the entire 2023 season in Pittsburgh. He does not have even one ounce of leverage. Every report that has come out suggests the news hasn't changed a thing. To be clear, I think he should be traded ASAP, but the price should stay high and waiting until the deadline if necessary might be what the situation demands.
 
The extent to which people are underestimating what Reynolds is going to get paid is pretty amazing. Brandon Nimmo isn't half the player Reynolds is and is basically the same as age as Reynolds will be when he hits free agency and he's likely to get way more than what our board GM's are declaring as the "top dollar" for Reynolds. And seriously, he's not going to be here in 2023. This isn't 1968 and it isn't 1998. This was leaked for a reason and the idea that they'll just pull a "tough shit - you're under control for 3 more years" is comically naive.
Agree except Reynolds is not better than Nimmo. Only on a lack of injury history.
 
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Agree except Reynolds is not better than Nimmo. Only on a lack of injury history.
Well, even if that's true that's a very big "other than." He's 30 and has played in only 608 major league games and has cracked 400 PA's only twice in his career. Reynolds is 2 years younger than Nimmo and has a higher career OPS, although I recognize Nimmo is more likely to stay in CF for the long haul. At worst they are comparable players with Reynolds being younger and far less injury prone (though to be fair, those assets are offset by the fact that Nimmo is FA eligible and Reynolds won't be for 3 more years). Regardless, I think Nimmo's deal will be a good marker for what someone would give Reynolds, and don't underestimate the fact that Reynolds has a major advantage in the old school counting stats - HR, RBI, etc., as those still matter to some.
 
Sounds like the Pirates did end up as runners up for Gibson, which I think is probably a good sign. I'd rather take a cheaper flier on an upside guy than go to 10-11M for Gibson. (I think Gibson would choose Baltimore anyways). This is a weird argument to make, because the reason I am saying this is based on the idea of using some of that potential 10M to go towards another signing, and we have no actual evidence other than bolder talk and now in a sense doubling down from Cherington. At least, no actual evidence that we'll commit to a multi-year deal or make a run at anyone, even a Stripling type (I think the projections for him are off, and that he'd be a great candidate to aggressively go get).

It's always easy to say stuff like this at the winter meetings or in December generally, but we really do need to see swift and decisive action in some sense from Cherington. Either work extensively on maxing out Reynolds' trade value while publicly saying the opposite, or forget about trading him entirely and set about signing an actual helpful free agent who fits into the picture for longer than 2023. I think the former is tricky, because if he did get involved in talks with another team, it probably leaks. He can't just say, "let's talk, and I want your best prospect as a starting point, and I am also in talks with other teams, but if these talks leak to the press, I'm walking away."

For that reason, I sort of feel like his only "good" option right now is to aggressively go for Quintana, or Benintendi if he does actually want a bat "that will lengthen the lineup." Benintendi has won a championship already and has a connection to Cherington, so even though his market might still need some time to fully develop, to me it almost seems like Benintendi is the most logical target if we truly have the so-called flexibility to sign who we want. He fulfills an obvious need in a very safe way for the next several years with some pretty decent upside, and is also the kind of player who we could use to better solidify the lineup in the same way as Santana and Choi with high BB rates (and low K, in Santana's case). This is even more true if Reynolds is gone by Opening Day.


Ironically, I think you can also argue that signing Benintendi would be a move that makes a Reynolds trade bring a better return. Probably the best case scenario for us in a Reynolds deal would be if Judge signs ASAP with the Giants, since while the Giants do have some pieces, I highly doubt they are entering the trade mix for a guy they let get away, so they aren't really a viable Reynolds suitor.

If that does happen, the Yankees in particular start scrambling. Doubly so if the Rangers or someone else is able to step up and get Rodon, which is who I bet might be the player who holds up the market for a bit in general.

Benintendi should be in line to make enough that it will make sense for him to see how the top of the market shakes out, up to and including Nimmo. But I think there's still likely going to be a cap for what teams might spend on him in free agency. He's 28 but he's more of a stabilizer or floor signing and now has power question marks. He's someone you can sign for 4/54M and if he has the power come back, you likely get a great bargain, whereas if not, you get a solid contributor with maybe a down year. I think the cost/benefit analysis there is tricky, but not so much so that it will drive his price way up. Maybe there's some kind of convoluted deal he can sign with opt-outs for him and benchmarks/team options or something, but it seems more to me like he's someone you could go get at his number/term. He could still get an ok couple of contracts after a 4-year deal right now.
 
BTW, in case anyone needs more depressing news, the Draft Lottery is tonight at 8:30est. We have the highest chance of anyone (along with Washington and Oakland) of getting pick 1.1 at 16.5%, and unless I am mistaken, the worst case scenario is pick 1.7.
 
The extent to which people are underestimating what Reynolds is going to get paid is pretty amazing. Brandon Nimmo isn't half the player Reynolds is and is basically the same as age as Reynolds will be when he hits free agency and he's likely to get way more than what our board GM's are declaring as the "top dollar" for Reynolds. And seriously, he's not going to be here in 2023. This isn't 1968 and it isn't 1998. This was leaked for a reason and the idea that they'll just pull a "tough shit - you're under control for 3 more years" is comically naive.
So you think someone is going to pay him 6-115 or more once they trade for him
 


It’s not my money but I feel like you’d have to be on crack to pay Bellinger $20 million.

Also, it’s sounding more and more likely that Judge ends up signing with the Giants instead of the Yankees. If that’s the case, I think they’d become even more desperate to trade for Reynolds.
 
Reynolds will lock in w/whatever team he is traded to because it's a smart financial move. If he were an absolute stud, a cornerstone, you wait until FA and then collect. He's not. He's very good, relative to the league, but he's also had some fluxes in output. He and Boras will take 6/120. Maybe the term if 5 or 7 but he'll lock in guaranteed money as it could be less if he continues to post 2022 type numbers rather than 2021. Maybe he'll bet on himself and maybe Boras will advise that course, but signing a 9 figure deal that still allows you to get 1 more good pay day in your mid 30's is the smartest decision for a guy like BR.

We aren't paying 20M per and suck, so that's why he wants out. Who can blame him.

And again, if you think a teams' top prospect is going to be a headliner for Reynolds, now, you are simply setting yourself up for disappointment.

The longer we wait to move him, the less we'll get.

Best case, you get a top 3/5 (depending on depth of system) player as a headliner, then 3-4 more supplemental pieces.

Pittsburgh as zero leverage. 0.0. If I'm the other GM I simply repeat that back to Ben until he caves.
 
Lol… financial flexibility… they will sign two starter who are cheap and trade Reynolds for a mediocre return and call it an offseason.
 
The "the Pirates won't get anything good for Reynolds" take is moronically stupid, no matter how many times people post it.

1. The OF market this year is pretty weak, with only Judge and Nimmo as guys on or above Reynolds level. The next level of guys after Reynolds are Benintendi (who's also good) and a bunch of scraps. You really think someone would rather sign Mitch Haniger or Michael Conforto over trading for Reynolds? Of course not.
2. Reynolds is still under team control for 3 more years. This take of "the Pirates have no leverage" is factually incorrect, they can hold onto him for as long as they want. This is not a situation where a guy will walk if you don't trade him, the Pirates have 3 years to trade him. Reynolds wanting out is completely irrelevant of that because of the MLB service time rules. Until he hits 7 years of service, he belongs to the Pirates. Period. There is no outlet for that.
3. You see top prospects traded for win-now pieces regularly today. Castillo, who only had 1 year of arbitration left, brought back a top-15 prospect in Marte. Soto brought back an absolute fortune (Hassell III, Gore, Wood and Abrams) even though he wasn't going to sign an extension with the Nationals.

My expectation for a Reynolds trade is either one top-50 prospect, one top-100 prospect and some minor pieces or one top-50 prospect, two 45+ FV prospects who may be top-100 prospects in the near future and some minor pieces. My expectations for a Reynolds trade would be:

1. Reynolds to the Yankees for Dominguez, Peiera, Gomez and some minor pieces.
2. Reynolds to the Dodgers for Miller, Pages and some minor pieces.
3. Reynolds to the Giants for Matos, Ramos, Bednar and some minor pieces.
 
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