OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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The Post-Gazette reports that the Pirates cover their entire player payroll via ticket sales and concession income.

TV money, revenue sharing, and everything else is profit.


While my take may have been "lazy" the fact of the matter is this team has never put a foot forward to do better and to invest money.
Did you actually read the article?

If thats your conclusion either you are trying to distort the information to fit your narrative or completely incapable of understand basic business principles.

If Payroll is covered by revenue of x,y&z there MUST be profit because their is other revenue. You conveniently ignore every other expense including leases, rents, equipment, minor leaguers and draft/int Fa, exectutive salaries, other employee salaries (coaches to janitors) , healthcare and employee benefits, depreciation, taxes, general operating costs (from food to TP), vehicles, air charter, per diems, interest, property/general insurance premiums, legal, consultinng, IT, bad debt etc, etc etc

Fact, there are 4 REAL data point on the pirates overall financials.

1. They had so much debt they were literally forced to dump salary (Ramirez)

2-4. They made a TOTAL of 30 mil (before taxes) over a three year span.

Nothing in these data points suggest they are pocketing profits.

Are they good at operating a major league org? No, no they are not.

Is the narrative of “just spend more money” dumb. Yes, yes it is.
 
Newman in the 6 hole just feels so unbelievably wrong haha.

Honestly, if Newman can hit respectably, just let him play. His glove brings real value. Get Cruz up here and playing LF/SS.

Then roll a lineup:

Cruz
Hayes
Reynolds
Yoshi/Vogel
Castillo
Chavis
Perez
Gamel
Newman
 



I could be reading this wrong, but this tells me that the team isn't going to be selling off players for prospects going forward and they're going to look to start adding MLB caliber talent. It sounds like they believe they've gotten enough prospects to build the "foundation" and are focused on helping the MLB team.

A great way to start that would be to extend Reynolds long-term, and honestly I'm hoping they throw Cruz a nice extension right now as well. You can probably get Cruz to sign an egregiously cheap extension right now, like what the Braves got with Albies.
 



I could be reading this wrong, but this tells me that the team isn't going to be selling off players for prospects going forward and they're going to look to start adding MLB caliber talent. It sounds like they believe they've gotten enough prospects to build the "foundation" and are focused on helping the MLB team.

A great way to start that would be to extend Reynolds long-term, and honestly I'm hoping they throw Cruz a nice extension right now as well. You can probably get Cruz to sign an egregiously cheap extension right now, like what the Braves got with Albies.

He is saying the right things. Now, will he DO the right things.
 
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If their aim is to compete in 2024 or 25 who on the team today would they still want to be there besides Hayes and Reynolds?
 
If their aim is to compete in 2024 or 25 who on the team today would they still want to be there besides Hayes and Reynolds?

The team could get rid of literally every single player not named Hayes and Reynolds and I wouldn't give a shit.

Pretty much no one on the team outside of those two and maybe Bednar should be on the team once they become good.
 
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The team could get rid of literally every single player not named Hayes and Reynolds and I wouldn't give a shit.

Pretty much no one on the team outside of those two and maybe Bednar should be on the team once they become good.
Some people believe Crow and Keller can be elite pens guys but I would agree
 
Honestly, Reynolds is a pretty big test for the front office and ownership, given Nutting's comments. While there are general arguments to be made about trading talented players before they are getting paid substantially and/or hitting free agency / post-peak years, a team that is actually building for the future can't easily trade their best talent when the rest of the roster looks like ours does.

You can be maximally optimistic about prospects and development, but at the end of the day, it's going to be extremely difficult to replace Reynolds, even if he's more of an all-star, everyday talent than a fringe MVP player. At a certain point the thinking has to shift away from stocking the system with talent and concentrating on a window, meaning that you need to replace the worst spots on the roster, not recycle the best ones.

If you draft and develop right, and have success, then you can start to make decisions about core players and who it makes sense to try and trade for talent. I don't see a way around Reynolds being a core player if we intend to put a winner on the field in the next three or four seasons -- if he's traded, you can't miss, and even hitting on a trade where you get a 50 FV type and develop them well, you are talking about an average regular.

I'm a bit surprised with how blunt Nutting's statements were, though of course there's no reason that they can't be PR bluffs about which the tune will change later. But the next step needs to be investing in Reynolds, and then this offseason, bringing in some supplementary talent and also, for instance, not suppressing any top prospects who might be ready coming out of spring training next year.
 
The team could get rid of literally every single player not named Hayes and Reynolds and I wouldn't give a shit.

Pretty much no one on the team outside of those two and maybe Bednar should be on the team once they become good.
Maybe Castillo can establish himself enough to be considered as part of that group.
 
Maybe Castillo can establish himself enough to be considered as part of that group.

Castillo would be included but I don't really consider him a full time MLBer yet. Once he sticks, he'll be a part of that group, even if he's just a J-Hay type of utility guy.

Ok what is a fair extension for Reynolds that buys out his free agent years?

I'd be trying to go for 6 years, $90 million with this layout:

Year 1: $5 million
Year 2: $10 million
Year 3: $15 million
Year 4: $20 million
Year 5: $20 million
Year 6: $20 million

This has what I would call fair arbitration awards for Reynolds and has him getting paid a similar amount of money in his first 2 UFA years as what Starling Marte made this off-season.
 
The team could get rid of literally every single player not named Hayes and Reynolds and I wouldn't give a shit.

Pretty much no one on the team outside of those two and maybe Bednar should be on the team once they become good.

The team isn't going to be good unless at least 1-2 guys from the current rotation develop. It's going to have to be a combo of the guys already here, Roansy et. al and external (Musgrove reunion pleaaaassseee). Oscar Marin is going to actually have to work instead of just being not Ray Searage.
 
Castillo would be included but I don't really consider him a full time MLBer yet. Once he sticks, he'll be a part of that group, even if he's just a J-Hay type of utility guy.



I'd be trying to go for 6 years, $90 million with this layout:

Year 1: $5 million
Year 2: $10 million
Year 3: $15 million
Year 4: $20 million
Year 5: $20 million
Year 6: $20 million

This has what I would call fair arbitration awards for Reynolds and has him getting paid a similar amount of money in his first 2 UFA years as what Starling Marte made this off-season.
And he will politely turn it down. He has every reason to look for 6-150 springer got from Toronto at age 31 or the 5-100 Nick and Kyle got from Philly
 
The team isn't going to be good unless at least 1-2 guys from the current rotation develop. It's going to have to be a combo of the guys already here, Roansy et. al and external (Musgrove reunion pleaaaassseee). Oscar Marin is going to actually have to work instead of just being not Ray Searage.

No one in their current rotation will end up that. At best, you'll get a low end starter from Thompson, Keller and Yajure.

The Pirates are going to have to go outside of the organization to address their starting pitching long-term. Priester is probably the highest upside guy, but I don't see him becoming more than a #2 at best. Contreras likely falls into a #3, Yajure falls into a #4 or #5 and everyone else is a complete wildcard.
 
And he will politely turn it down. He has every reason to look for 6-150 springer got from Toronto at age 31 or the 5-100 Nick and Kyle got from Philly

So he'd turn down $90 million guaranteed which is given in 4 arbitration years and 2 UFA years in the hopes of getting a big deal in 4 years? Yeah, I don't see that happening.

That's also especially odd to say because Reynolds would be a UFA at age 33, where he can still get that a massive contract to get himself equal or higher than what those guys got. Marte just signed for 4 years and $78 million at age 33.
 
So he'd turn down $90 million guaranteed which is given in 4 arbitration years and 2 UFA years in the hopes of getting a big deal in 4 years? Yeah, I don't see that happening.

That's also especially odd to say because Reynolds would be a UFA at age 33, where he can still get that a massive contract to get himself equal or higher than what those guys got. Marte just signed for 4 years and $78 million at age 33.
He will 31 in 2026 when he gets to free agency not 33. This is the same situation with Andrew and we know Andrew felt his extension cost him money. He is on the Kris Bryant track and he at age 30 got 7 for 182. This is why there’s no extension they will just buy out his arbitration
 
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He will 31 in 2026 when he gets to free agency not 33. This is the same situation with Andrew and we know Andrew felt his extension cost him money. He is on the Kris Bryant track and he at age 30 got 7 for 182

There's a cataclysmic difference between what McCutchen got and that proposed Reynolds extension.

It's just an odd take to say that he would turn down a guaranteed $20 million in his 31 and 32 year old UFA years right now because he could make $25 million in those years instead. He can still get that big extension at 33 that he could get at 31, so I just find it odd to claim that.
 
No, Reynolds can hit free agency in his age 31 season, so there's definitely a world where he waits it out and tries to seriously cash in. The question is probably how interested he is in guaranteeing himself a certain amount of money no matter what.

2021 may well be a career year for Reynolds, it's hard to say. If he comes close to repeating it and then does that again, he's probably looking at an enormous payday when he hits free agency, especially if he's a CF. I think he's a good enough defender, I'm not sure it's ironclad. There's a potentially narrow line to walk if he's more like rookie Bryan Reynolds and a ~3 WAR player in a corner, without overwhelming power. I'm not sure he's a perfect comparison in every way, but look at Michael Brantley for instance.

My suspicion is that we have no meaningful interest in even signing him to a contact like @Empoleon8771 pitched, or something a bit higher like 110M or so. Right now, from Reynolds perspective, there are reasons why signing a deal that could sacrifice a pretty big chunk of money would still be appealing. It's a time bomb question, really -- it's possible that he could follow a similar path as a guy like Springer (though I would also wager his World Series MVP helped him out), but that involves no certainty and lots of year-to-year navigations, etc... could be traded at any moment, could have a major injury and fail to put up the numbers again which would seriously curtail earnings.

At the end of the day it involves a lot of speculation, but we don't really know the specifics. We know that like Hayes, he was probably seriously lowballed in earlier offers, but I think up until Hayes' contract came out, people would have been skeptical that Hayes would sign for that length and price. Reynolds is different because he's proven more, and a 2022 campaign might cement that, but team control still weighs extraordinarily heavily in this situation.

I think for my part, if it came out that we were kicking around a number like 6-7 years, 90-140M, I'd count that as a pretty serious attempt and if Reynolds wanted to turn it down for the chance to get 40-60+M more when he's all said and done, more power to him. For now we just have some vague thing about Nutting not wanting to see arbitration happen, so a compromise two-year deal might be what happens (Mackey seems to think so), but at least take a serious run at him.

It would have been nice to do both together in the same front-loaded style, but regardless the team is not in a bad situation if it has Hayes where it does and can have Reynolds at 20-25M AAV max in his highest years. That's maybe 35M on top of the order guys playing important positions -- you surround it with a good farm system and smart supplementary free agent signings, and you still aren't pushing 90-100M probably. It's plenty affordable, and if we decided to go another direction, then we should still have the money to take a serious run at the top guys on the market in way similar to Minnesota and Correa (I'm serious, as obviously unlikely as it would ever be to materialize).
 
No, Reynolds can hit free agency in his age 31 season, so there's definitely a world where he waits it out and tries to seriously cash in. The question is probably how interested he is in guaranteeing himself a certain amount of money no matter what.

I know Reynolds is a UFA in his age 31 season, I meant that with that 6 year deal, he'd still be a UFA at age 33 and can get a big contract at that point too. It's not "get a big contract at age 31 or don't get it", it's "get a big contract at age 31 or buy out 2 UFA years and then Reynolds gets a slightly smaller deal at age 33".
 
There's a cataclysmic difference between what McCutchen got and that proposed Reynolds extension.

It's just an odd take to say that he would turn down a guaranteed $20 million in his 31 and 32 year old UFA years right now because he could make $25 million in those years instead. He can still get that big extension at 33 that he could get at 31, so I just find it odd to claim that.
And if they could get him to take 90/6 it would be done. Heck they would probably front load it as much as they legally can under arbitration rules. Reynolds will have to be willing to give up free agent years.
 
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