OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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And if they could get him to take 90/6 it would be done. Heck they would probably front load it as much as they legally can under arbitration rules. Reynolds will have to be willing to give up free agent years.

This is a bizarre take. What indication have the Pirates made that they're willing to spend that kind of money on a player? They just set the franchise record for biggest contract extension with Hayes getting $70 million.

There is no chance that I'd say that a Nutting owned organization would jump at paying $90 million to a single player.
 
One thing I would add, maybe this is too much of a hot take but whatever, is that I would still be in favor of riding the situation all the way out with Reynolds. That would probably be an improvement over trading him, especially if we waited 1.5-2.5 more years and got a much worse return in a trade. Pay him what it takes in arbitration and try to win with him, even up through 2025, as long as the team around him is developing well and you are supplementing it.

More than anything, I think what I don't like about the excessive focus on efficiency, prospects, etc., is that it takes on too passive of an attitude. We were already too passive heading into this current season, especially given Nutting's comments. If they really want us to believe what he's saying, then prove it by signing some mid-tier free agents and making the team more able to hang in the division.

We can still do that heading into next year, and keeping Reynolds through arbitration only is probably something that would be more ideal if he was controllable through 2026, but there should be an array of young players who are contributing to the 2025 team even accounting for some attrition. Spend to add to them, maybe concentrate effort on keeping Cruz as the long-term building block, and then if the team performs, ride it out with Reynolds. Getting a compensatory 1st round pick for him might be better than a rental package anyways.

And having a compensation pick attached to him might be one more way he's incentivized to take a huge but not enormous guarantee now -- just look at Conforto for a guy who is quite good, though never as much as Reynolds' 2021, but then had a bit of injury luck and a down year right before free agency and now he's probably looking at waiting until mid-summer for a team to sign him to a one year deal.

If we're serious, there are lots of reasons Reynolds should pounce on a deal, even if it's not actual market value. But that's the point, MLB isn't really an actual free market, even if it's the closest thing in pro sports probably. But I think we should pump the brakes on too much speculation, because the brute fact is that we just signed Hayes to a deal that broke a record set when all of us were much younger or maybe not even born, depending on how old we all are. Turning around and breaking it again this winter, even at a more team friendly price point, seems like a pipe dream.
 
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The brewers are paying Yellich 26million and Cain 18 million this year. This is Cain last year on his deal but Wong will be the 2nd highest paid player next year at 10 million unless hater is extended we can easily carry Reynolds and Hayes on a front loaded deal
 
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This is a bizarre take. What indication have the Pirates made that they're willing to spend that kind of money on a player? They just set the franchise record for biggest contract extension with Hayes getting $70 million.

There is no chance that I'd say that a Nutting owned organization would jump at paying $90 million to a single player.
Yeah Hayes got a record deal a record for most guaranteed money that any player got with his amount of service time. It could be the Chavez contract it could be worse than the Kendall deal. However the mlbpa is suing saying they aren’t using the funds in revenue sharing correctly getting Reynolds and Hayes locked up gets them off his back and payroll still would be below 60 million this season and next. The only guaranteed money on the books next year is Hayes so far
 
I know Reynolds is a UFA in his age 31 season, I meant that with that 6 year deal, he'd still be a UFA at age 33 and can get a big contract at that point too. It's not "get a big contract at age 31 or don't get it", it's "get a big contract at age 31 or buy out 2 UFA years and then Reynolds gets a slightly smaller deal at age 33".
Oh my fault. Yeah, that's a good point -- at the end of the day I think if we were willing to make the huge investment to buy out two free agency years, there's plenty of reason for Reynolds to simply jump on it. I don't want to be excessively naive, but there's a big difference between throwing around 100-110M vs. a possible 150-160M for example, on the one hand, and actually being able to sign a piece of paper and know your family has 100 million dollars no matter what else happens.

If we wanted to get really crazy, we could try to sell Reynolds on basically being a Pirate for life. Hayes is signed through 2029, and it's 2030 unless we are idiotic (or he gets traded before his 10/5 rights kick in, but let's not go there now...). That's something like an 8 or 9 year deal for Reynolds, but in this scenario, he probably would have to sacrifice long-term earning potential for near total security.

Honestly, I think the way that the Pirates are probably looking at it (setting aside what ownership can/will do) is in terms of what years we want Reynolds around for and why. A lot of the thinking now is that players are right in their primes at his current age and potentially starting to go downhill even now. It depends on the player, the skill set, etc., and I don't want to be a total doomer, but I do think there's a chance that the front office would seek to move him right now if they got a return headlined by a top-10 in baseball prospect that they believed in.

In any case, I think 6 years is the realistic sort of target contract that gives you Reynolds as a cornerstone for a team you hope wins it all in the 2024-2027 range, and still gives Reynolds some chance for a big contract after the 2027 season. I don't want to downplay baseball concerns, but I truly think it's still a put up or shut up situation at the end of the day. Unless we just don't think Reynolds will be an all star type talent, if the will is actually there, we can pay him an AAV of even 30, 35 million for a year or two if that's what it would take.

The only potential wrench in that crazy scenario is if Cruz is an MVP type talent, but even in that case, you'd be able to have them all together plus other players plus supplementary free agents and the total would never push above 110-120M. I do think there's an argument that trying to get Cruz to sign a similar deal to Hayes is a better use of time than chasing Reynolds, but with Reynolds specifically, I think bare minimum you have to keep paying him through arbitration and try to get a good enough team to make a run in 2025.
 
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Yeah Hayes got a record deal a record for most guaranteed money that any player got with his amount of service time. It could be the Chavez contract it could be worse than the Kendall deal. However the mlbpa is suing saying they aren’t using the funds in revenue sharing correctly getting Reynolds and Hayes locked up gets them off his back and payroll still would be below 60 million this season and next. The only guaranteed money on the books next year is Hayes so far
Yeah, I'll just add one more here (hopefully shorter)... This type of thing is really what they should have tried to do with Reynolds too, but I think it's not a possibility now. If we signed Reynolds to a 6 year type deal and front-loaded it, with say 20M this year and 20M next year, then maybe you can spread out lower AAVs in the final 4 years. That does sound implausible, but we just jumped Hayes from league minimum to 10M overnight.

I think it boils down to timing. Hayes' contract clearly makes him a franchise player, and if his bat plays, we're talking about an MVP who won't earn more than 10M in a single season. It's still a question of willpower, but if Reynolds were a year or two younger, then maybe you could make a similar show of faith. Still, the payroll is atrocious now and on track to be atrocious next year, so even if we signed a two year deal to avoid arbitration, there's nothing preventing us from ripping it up in the winter in order to nail down a new 5-6 year deal and pay out 40+% of it in 2023 and 2024, when the payroll projects to be minuscule even if we did sign a mid-tier free agent or two. We could seriously have Reynolds making 25M next year, sign a starting pitcher, reliever, and position player, and the payroll wouldn't even flirt with 100M.
 
No one in their current rotation will end up that. At best, you'll get a low end starter from Thompson, Keller and Yajure.

The Pirates are going to have to go outside of the organization to address their starting pitching long-term. Priester is probably the highest upside guy, but I don't see him becoming more than a #2 at best. Contreras likely falls into a #3, Yajure falls into a #4 or #5 and everyone else is a complete wildcard.
In order to hit they are going to have to fill this rotation internally to some extent. That includes the guys already here; Thompson, Keller, Yajure. Even the stud teams get internal pitching from like second tier guys. 2013 we had Jeff Locke. Later on we had Vance Worley.

Non top-100 pitchers come in and succeed all the time. If all of Keller, Yajure and Thompson bust we should just fire Marin immediately. Mind you I do think we'll need significant external help, which is why I'm big on building the hitting interally - and we have the horses there in my opinion.
 
In order to hit they are going to have to fill this rotation internally to some extent. That includes the guys already here; Thompson, Keller, Yajure. Even the stud teams get internal pitching from like second tier guys. 2013 we had Jeff Locke. Later on we had Vance Worley.

Non top-100 pitchers come in and succeed all the time. If all of Keller, Yajure and Thompson bust we should just fire Marin immediately. Mind you I do think we'll need significant external help, which is why I'm big on building the hitting interally - and we have the horses there in my opinion.

Oh yeah I agree, I just more meant that I don't think anyone on the team today will become anything more than a depth starter option.

The only potential wrench in that crazy scenario is if Cruz is an MVP type talent, but even in that case, you'd be able to have them all together plus other players plus supplementary free agents and the total would never push above 110-120M. I do think there's an argument that trying to get Cruz to sign a similar deal to Hayes is a better use of time than chasing Reynolds, but with Reynolds specifically, I think bare minimum you have to keep paying him through arbitration and try to get a good enough team to make a run in 2025.

I was actually about to post this. If I had to pick between extending Reynolds to a 6 year deal or getting Cruz to an Albies type of extension, I'd pick Cruz.

I'd rather extend both Cruz and Reynolds right now, but if I had to pick one, I'd rather just run through Reynolds his first 3 arbitration years (or even give him a 2 or 3 year deal now to eat up those arbitration years) and give a big extension to Cruz, and then look to trade Reynolds in his last year of arbitration.

Give Reynolds something like 3 years and $25 million, which is likely around what his arbitration awards would be giving him over that window anyway, and then trade him before his last year of arbitration. Or you can extend him there, but I think we all know the Pirates won't do that.
 
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Oh yeah I agree, I just more meant that I don't think anyone on the team today will become anything more than a depth starter option.



I was actually about to post this. If I had to pick between extending Reynolds to a 6 year deal or getting Cruz to an Albies type of extension, I'd pick Cruz.

I'd rather extend both Cruz and Reynolds right now, but if I had to pick one, I'd rather just run through Reynolds his first 3 arbitration years (or even give him a 2 or 3 year deal now to eat up those arbitration years) and give a big extension to Cruz, and then look to trade Reynolds in his last year of arbitration.

Give Reynolds something like 3 years and $25 million, which is likely around what his arbitration awards would be giving him over that window anyway, and then trade him before his last year of arbitration. Or you can extend him there, but I think we all know the Pirates won't do that.
I think Cruz could be had for 9/$60-$80M. He hasn't made real money yet in this game and he is eons away from arbitration.
 
That Albies deal is the best deal in baseball and he should fire his agent lol. If Cruz is who we think he is give him the Acuna deal 8-100 and can be 124 million
 
I think Cruz could be had for 9/$60-$80M. He hasn't made real money yet in this game and he is eons away from arbitration.

Yeah, I think this is a reasonable guess. Albies came in at $45 million over 9 years and Jimenez came in at $78 million over 8 years. I think 8 or 9 years at a similar AAV to Hayes is reasonable to go for.

That Albies deal is the best deal in baseball and he should fire his agent lol. If Cruz is who we think he is give him the Acuna deal 8-100 and can be 124 million

Didn't Acuna get his deal after winning rookie of the year?
 
Yeah, I think this is a reasonable guess. Albies came in at $45 million over 9 years and Jimenez came in at $78 million over 8 years. I think 8 or 9 years at a similar AAV to Hayes is reasonable to go for.



Didn't Acuna get his deal after winning rookie of the year?

Jimenez is a phenomenal comp for Cruz. That's the target deal.

We're overhyping Cruz considerably if we're throwing out Acuna comps. Acuna was a consensus #1 prospect in all of baseball. Or at least top 5. Cruz is slotting comfortably between like 15-35, depending on who you ask. Much more similar stature to Jimenez. Does he have upside to turn out as one of the top guys? Yes, but it's weighted against risk - just as Nutting/Cherington would have to do so when they cut Oneil that check.
 
Yeah, I think this is a reasonable guess. Albies came in at $45 million over 9 years and Jimenez came in at $78 million over 8 years. I think 8 or 9 years at a similar AAV to Hayes is reasonable to go for.



Didn't Acuna get his deal after winning rookie of the year?
Yeah and it’s more front loaded than Tatis contract still short enough for him to get paid again at age 30
 
Honestly, a mid-season extension with Cruz is probably the best case scenario for this season. It could effectively back up their claim that they wanted him to get more time in AAA (obvious BS) while obviating any worry about when precisely he is introduced to the team in terms of an extra year, super two, etc etc.

One thing I learned recently is that a player is still eligible to earn a pick with the ROY thing if it's done in their first year of service time, which means that if Cruz is called up imminently and wins, he would get the full year and we'd still get the pick -- opening day roster is not a requirement, unless the player has never played in the majors before and hasn't started the service clock. But that's sort of immaterial, because if I understand the timing correctly, this call up would earn the year of service if he didn't finish in the top two for ROY, i.e., it would make suppressing his ABs in spring training and then forcing him to AAA a moot point. I don't think we care about the ROY comp pick at all, based on actions.
 
Honestly, a mid-season extension with Cruz is probably the best case scenario for this season. It could effectively back up their claim that they wanted him to get more time in AAA (obvious BS) while obviating any worry about when precisely he is introduced to the team in terms of an extra year, super two, etc etc.

One thing I learned recently is that a player is still eligible to earn a pick with the ROY thing if it's done in their first year of service time, which means that if Cruz is called up imminently and wins, he would get the full year and we'd still get the pick -- opening day roster is not a requirement, unless the player has never played in the majors before and hasn't started the service clock. But that's sort of immaterial, because if I understand the timing correctly, this call up would earn the year of service if he didn't finish in the top two for ROY, i.e., it would make suppressing his ABs in spring training and then forcing him to AAA a moot point. I don't think we care about the ROY comp pick at all, based on actions.

We traded a comp pick for Gaby Sanchez.

Which should show the value of a comp pick.
 
Eloy was 6/43 million with 2 option years in 25 of 16 and 18 in 26 on OTC. I would think they could easily front load a deal that starts next year
 
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I think trading Stallings for Thompson and signing Perez is going to look like a masterclass move by Cherington if Thompson can be a steadying presence in the rotation. Perez looks great.

Tucker sucks and I really wish they'd give up on this experiment. He looks awkward as hell defensively in the OF and can't hit.
 
Can someone here explain the logic of not signing a few vet bats? Put Cutch and someone else in this lineup........ I mean they're not competing for a Pennant, but it's interesting. I also think it would help the team having a couple of guys like Cutch in that clubhouse to school the youth.

It's like the exact opposite of the Pens right now..... an aging core could really use youth........vice versa for the Bucs.

It really boggles the mind because they clearly have some money to spend.
 
Can someone here explain the logic of not signing a few vet bats? Put Cutch and someone else in this lineup........ I mean they're not competing for a Pennant, but it's interesting. I also think it would help the team having a couple of guys like Cutch in that clubhouse to school the youth.

It's like the exact opposite of the Pens right now..... an aging core could really use youth........vice versa for the Bucs.

It really boggles the mind because they clearly have some money to spend.
I do wonder how long Cutch holds up as DH only in Milwaukee. They have vets not a ton of talented vets
 
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