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OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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NewAgeOutlaw said:
Gerrit Cole didn't improve when he left because Houston took the pressure off of him. It is because the Pirates had him leaning on literally his worst pitch because their philosophy at the time was to throw 2 seamers to induce contact.

And they had Cole pitching like that despite it being virtually the exact opposite of how a guy with Cole's arsenal should be pitching.

They had data showing his 2 seamer was trash and they kept having him throw it more than his wildly effective 4 seamer anyway!
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True but the sticky stuff is playing a role. Cole's numbers this year are above average, not ace.

The improvements in the hitters, meanwhile, have nothing to do with throwing 2 seamers. Seems more likely to be off the hype train of 'heu we suck but we got this One guy!" Like how Bell crumbled 2H '19 and '20, Reynolds has underperformed etc.
 
Cole's numbers post sticky stuff crackdown are still better than all but 1 season he had in our uniform. And who is to say he wasn't using sticky stuff while a Pirate? Hell, you'd have trouble finding a pitcher who didn't doctor the ball with something in 2015.
 
NewAgeOutlaw said:
Cole's numbers post sticky stuff crackdown are still better than all but 1 season he had in our uniform. And who is to say he wasn't using sticky stuff while a Pirate? Hell, you'd have trouble finding a pitcher who didn't doctor the ball with something in 2015.
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I totally agree that Searage was the worst possible pitching coach for Cole.

But I don't think you can apply the argument to our hitters.
TBH you are overreaching with the "nobody good since Marte in 2012" thing. Omitting Bell and Reynolds at the least. And Hayes at least from a perspective of total value with bat/glove.
 
The fact that we can count the number of quality major leaguers the Pirates have produced in the last 10 years with our fingers says it all.

And the number of players, both pitchers and hitters, who improved when they left is worrying.

Again, Marte is out of his prime production years and presumably no longer on juice so why is he hitting the ball better than when he was in his prime and juicing for the Pirates?
 
www.mlb.com

Here's the Pirates' new Top 30 Prospects list

We’ve got some new faces in some new places. On the whole, this year has been a mixed bag for the Pirates’ farm system. On the positive side, there’s been no shortage of standouts. Matt Gorski homered at a torrid pace and played his way up to Double-A Altoona. Endy
www.mlb.com www.mlb.com

Updated Pirates top-30 prospects from MLB.com. Nothing really too surprising, but I'm not entirely sure how Rodriguez isn't a top-100 prospect yet and how Peguero is in the 60s.
 
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cole got better as he got older and wiser is a part of this as is the fact the development crew behind the cole fiasco all got fired?
 
NewAgeOutlaw said:
The fact that we can count the number of quality major leaguers the Pirates have produced in the last 10 years with our fingers says it all.

And the number of players, both pitchers and hitters, who improved when they left is worrying.

Again, Marte is out of his prime production years and presumably no longer on juice so why is he hitting the ball better than when he was in his prime and juicing for the Pirates?
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What is your definition of "quality?"

There aren't that many quality players in the league producing 3+ WAR. But there are a lot of guys who are league average producing 1-2 WAR. For example, Adam Frazier circa '19-'20. On a lower end, Ben Gamel this year. And the trade-off from those players to outright terrible is routinely what costs this team games.

If Bucket A is quality, Bucket B is league average-ish and Bucket C is bad, of the 8 guys that have come up only Cruz and Suwinski have been in Bucket B. VanMeter sucks, but thus far the Mitchells and the Swaggertys and the Parks and the Castros also belong in Bucket C. They aren't better. Madris has been appalling. And when it becomes apparent that that our AAA Apples were coming up rotten, it leads me to devalue the whole thing.

But it hasn't even been until the last day that "cheapness in development" entered the dialogue of this thread. If true, more reason to tune out.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
www.mlb.com

Here's the Pirates' new Top 30 Prospects list

We’ve got some new faces in some new places. On the whole, this year has been a mixed bag for the Pirates’ farm system. On the positive side, there’s been no shortage of standouts. Matt Gorski homered at a torrid pace and played his way up to Double-A Altoona. Endy
www.mlb.com www.mlb.com

Updated Pirates top-30 prospects from MLB.com. Nothing really too surprising, but I'm not entirely sure how Rodriguez isn't a top-100 prospect yet and how Peguero is in the 60s.
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Isn't Peguero a year younger?
 
Cole has always had ace potential. The moment he got away from pitching to contact with a two seamer and using his four seamer to get strikeouts, he was able to realize that potential.
 
A few years from now historians are going to look back in disbelief that a supposed major league team started a lineup in August of 2022 that had Kevin Padlo, Greg Allen, Jason DeLay, and Bligh Madris and actually charged people to enter the stadium to watch it.
 
Eckersley was completely in his rights to say what he did, btw. The fact that it is more profitable to run a shoe-string operation and collect revenue sharing than it is to compete is a major black eye on the sport.

Not just the Pirates. The A's are very obviously trying to kill their own fanbase in Oakland so they can strongarm a move to Vegas to increase revenue.

The parity is a joke. The big clubs have noticed the market inefficiencies that savvy small market teams used to take advantage of. They even limited spending on the draft to limit small market teams from loading up on cheap, club-controlled talent.

The whole thing is broken but nobody has incentive to fix it because everybody is making money and it is the only game in town.
 
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NewAgeOutlaw said:
Eckersley was completely in his rights to say what he did, btw. The fact that it is more profitable to run a shoe-string operation and collect revenue sharing than it is to compete is a major black eye on the sport.

Not just the Pirates. The A's are very obviously trying to kill their own fanbase in Oakland so they can strongarm a move to Vegas to increase revenue.

The parity is a joke. The big clubs have noticed the market inefficiencies that savvy small market teams used to take advantage of. They even limited spending on the draft to limit small market teams from loading up on cheap, club-controlled talent.

The whole thing is broken but nobody has incentive to fix it because everybody is making money and it is the only game in town.
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Of course he's right, and so many people get caught up in taking sides on this issue when in reality it's both sides to blame. The economics of baseball are fundamentally broken in ways that no other sport experiences, and it's a reality that certainly presents challenges to the Pirates and puts them at a competitive disadvantage. That does not, however, change the fact that the Pirates grossly underfund the franchise and the fans suffer because of the frugality and non-competitiveness of ownership. Both things can and are simultaneously true and parts of the problems with this franchise.
 
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NewAgeOutlaw said:
Eckersley was completely in his rights to say what he did, btw. The fact that it is more profitable to run a shoe-string operation and collect revenue sharing than it is to compete is a major black eye on the sport.

Not just the Pirates. The A's are very obviously trying to kill their own fanbase in Oakland so they can strongarm a move to Vegas to increase revenue.

The parity is a joke. The big clubs have noticed the market inefficiencies that savvy small market teams used to take advantage of. They even limited spending on the draft to limit small market teams from loading up on cheap, club-controlled talent.

The whole thing is broken but nobody has incentive to fix it because everybody is making money and it is the only game in town.
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The fix is the same fix the Nhl had. Season long lockout and complete collapse of fan support.

I’m still trying to do the math on how all these tv contracts are living up to their billing when MLB has been losing fans for the last two decades. At some point I wonder if these cable companies are going to start saying “hey we aren’t generating as much revenue as we were promised”. Might make things difficult as contracts continue to rise for players
 
piratesprospects.com

Williams: Tanking - Pirates Prospects

The Pirates don't have a good team right now. It's been described as "A hodgepodge of nothingness." https://twitter.com/awfulannouncing/status/1559700135273119744 It's very clear that the Pirates are tanking right now for anyone who has paid attention. They've shown no effort the last few...
piratesprospects.com piratesprospects.com

Truth emerges.

Probably why Gallatin ain't posting over there anymore ;)
 
MrBrightside said:
Of course he's right, and so many people get caught up in taking sides on this issue when in reality it's both sides to blame. The economics of baseball are fundamentally broken in ways that no other sport experiences, and it's a reality that certainly presents challenges to the Pirates and puts them at a competitive disadvantage. That does not, however, change the fact that the Pirates grossly underfund the franchise and the fans suffer because of the frugality and non-competitiveness of ownership. Both things can and are simultaneously true and parts of the problems with this franchise.
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Word. MLB is The Problem - Ownership is The Other Problem.

I love the opinion "it's always darkest before the dawn". And that's where we are right now IMO. in the dark not quite 2 years into the teardown/rebuild.

And when things change, it'll happen fast. And yes I'm assuming that the minor league system is fine, and not a total mess. Development is non-linear. Such an important thing to keep in mind this year.
 
ImporterExporter said:
He's heating up which is a good sign considering he missed a full 2 months. Davis and Gorski also very close to return which is huge.

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Nice to see Nick abusing that Curveball on the 1st hit. Stayed back, and drove it opposite field.

Now if we start seeing Gonzales tagging sliders like that, then we're cooking with fire IMO.

TotesTorts said:
People mad at the Red Sox announcers are the type of people who get upset if you tell them their fly is down
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I didn't have a problem with the take, I had the problem with the organization it was coming from.
 
The Pirates are ranked #9 by BA pretty much entirely because they're not that high on the high picks the Pirates have made in the last few years, at least compared to places like Fangraphs.

BA has Johnson at #44, Davis at #81 and Gonzalez unranked. Fangraphs has Davis at #19, Johnson at #24 and Gonzalez at #98 and MLB.com has Davis at #20, Johnson at #30 and Gonzalez at #99. I'd be willing to bet that the Pirates would easily be in the top-5 if BA had the same view of their most recent high 1st rounders as Fangraphs or MLB.com has.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
The Pirates are ranked #9 by BA pretty much entirely because they're not that high on the high picks the Pirates have made in the last few years, at least compared to places like Fangraphs.

BA has Johnson at #44, Davis at #81 and Gonzalez unranked. Fangraphs has Davis at #19, Johnson at #24 and Gonzalez at #98 and MLB.com has Davis at #20, Johnson at #30 and Gonzalez at #99. I'd be willing to bet that the Pirates would easily be in the top-5 if BA had the same view of their most recent high 1st rounders as Fangraphs or MLB.com has.
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Also if Davis and Gonzalez had played most of this year instead of being injured.

We really need White, Solomento and Chandler to come through because, as it stands, Mayer and Lawler are on a better track than Davis. Then again we knew that and none of these players have played a full calendar year of pro ball
 
sovietsanta87 said:
Also if Davis and Gonzalez had played most of this year instead of being injured.

We really need White, Solomento and Chandler to come through because, as it stands, Mayer and Lawler are on a better track than Davis. Then again we knew that and none of these players have played a full calendar year of pro ball
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Yeah I just saw that Davis was ranked #41 by BA before the season started, which makes him falling that much even more nonsensical.

Davis has played in 41 games this year, with him killing the ball in A+ (1.035 OPS in 22 games) and struggling to adjust to AA (.675 OPS in 17 games). Why is that enough to drop him 40 spots?
 
Empoleon8771 said:
Yeah I just saw that Davis was ranked #41 by BA before the season started, which makes him falling that much even more nonsensical.

Davis has played in 41 games this year, with him killing the ball in A+ (1.035 OPS in 22 games) and struggling to adjust to AA (.675 OPS in 17 games). Why is that enough to drop him 40 spots?
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Because A+ stats don't matter for him, and he has no remaining projection at the catcher position?
 
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