OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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My sense from watching him a lot in the minors is that he's being told to take pitches and it's just not who he is as a hitter. He will rarely pull the trigger early in the count, and often it's resulting in those bad ABs that look predictable.

He'd be better off getting really aggressive early in counts, even if it still results in him falling behind somewhat often. I don't have any easy solution and I am glad the break is coming up, but I do firmly think he needs to keep playing in MLB and also that's it's not even been a month of games. What worries me is the abysmal developmental history on this team, but I think it's also fair to point out that J-Rod was getting worked over early in the season, and it's extremely rare for a prospect to come up and hit the ground running.

Ironically, it's the glove that makes him a continued option, as he isn't giving any value back in that regard at all (he's at 5 DRS last I glanced). The power will still play, but whatever the approach he's taking in MLB is will not (and it's not something that would be solved in AAA -- if he goes down, it has to be 2-3 weeks into August or so, and it's admitting defeat).
 
My sense from watching him a lot in the minors is that he's being told to take pitches and it's just not who he is as a hitter. He will rarely pull the trigger early in the count, and often it's resulting in those bad ABs that look predictable.

He'd be better off getting really aggressive early in counts, even if it still results in him falling behind somewhat often. I don't have any easy solution and I am glad the break is coming up, but I do firmly think he needs to keep playing in MLB and also that's it's not even been a month of games. What worries me is the abysmal developmental history on this team, but I think it's also fair to point out that J-Rod was getting worked over early in the season, and it's extremely rare for a prospect to come up and hit the ground running.

Ironically, it's the glove that makes him a continued option, as he isn't giving any value back in that regard at all (he's at 5 DRS last I glanced). The power will still play, but whatever the approach he's taking in MLB is will not (and it's not something that would be solved in AAA -- if he goes down, it has to be 2-3 weeks into August or so, and it's admitting defeat).

I brought up Rodriguez about a week ago after Cruz hit 25 games, which is what J-Rod had in his first month, which was abysmal. My worry is this current product is what we're going to see next week, the week after, so on and so forth.

The glove is really good. I'm being won over in regards to him staying at SS for at least the next few years, but the bat is just nowhere near good enough right now and we're getting to the point where it really starts snowballing.

I mean every other prospect has been sent back down, including Roansy, twice. It's not just the mid tier guys. Keeping Cruz up, IF he continues to K at this absurd rate, is a bad look, when basically every other guy has been sent packing, based on "performance".

I don't know. He looks lost to me. Like he doesn't have a plan of attack, and that would not surprise me in the least as you mentioned our pro development staff has been pathetic forever.
 
Cruz is at rock bottom right now...just awful and hard to watch. He watches pitch after pitch right down the middle or near that. Then swings at something well off the plate....wash, rinse, repeat....
 
The problem I have with him going back is that he doesn't have anything left to prove vs. AAA pitchers. He's been abysmal this weekend and bad in general at the plate, racking up another K there. We're lucky that the break is coming up because he needs one in a bad way. Obviously, if he comes out of the break and is King like 60% of the time as he has in the last week or so (just a guess), then it's not a sustainable situation.

But I think if he can get these games behind him, he needs to continue to be challenged by this level of pitching. To me it looks really, really transparent that the approach is completely flat and completely broken. He should have obliterated that first pitch just now, and instead he again took strikes to be in a count where even good hitters are going to K a lot of the times.

The root of the problem is that even the bad MLB pitchers can slice and dice like this when you are out of sorts at the plate. He needs a different plan of attack in the worst way, as for weeks now, we've seen him have this uber-patient approach where he's taking pitches that he can do damage with. I think his approach was a little bit different in his first week and a half of games or so.

There aren't easy answers or excuses, but AAA would be a decisive set-back and not do too much other than maybe get him some success. I don't think there's pressure to the extent that his confidence needs to be a worry, and it also doesn't seem to be negatively affecting his fielding. I think you get the week off for the ASB, then get him back in there with a plan to get more aggressive hacks in early in counts. I do not think he struggles to recognize pitches, but this taking multiple pitches approach to start every AB is clearly setting him up to fail.
 
The problem I have with him going back is that he doesn't have anything left to prove vs. AAA pitchers. He's been abysmal this weekend and bad in general at the plate, racking up another K there. We're lucky that the break is coming up because he needs one in a bad way. Obviously, if he comes out of the break and is King like 60% of the time as he has in the last week or so (just a guess), then it's not a sustainable situation.

But I think if he can get these games behind him, he needs to continue to be challenged by this level of pitching. To me it looks really, really transparent that the approach is completely flat and completely broken. He should have obliterated that first pitch just now, and instead he again took strikes to be in a count where even good hitters are going to K a lot of the times.

The root of the problem is that even the bad MLB pitchers can slice and dice like this when you are out of sorts at the plate. He needs a different plan of attack in the worst way, as for weeks now, we've seen him have this uber-patient approach where he's taking pitches that he can do damage with. I think his approach was a little bit different in his first week and a half of games or so.

There aren't easy answers or excuses, but AAA would be a decisive set-back and not do too much other than maybe get him some success. I don't think there's pressure to the extent that his confidence needs to be a worry, and it also doesn't seem to be negatively affecting his fielding. I think you get the week off for the ASB, then get him back in there with a plan to get more aggressive hacks in early in counts. I do not think he struggles to recognize pitches, but this taking multiple pitches approach to start every AB is clearly setting him up to fail.

Yeah I really disagree with all of this. What has Oneil Cruz accomplished in AAA? Nothing? Yep.

And he goes back to learn a new approach, to actually learn how to to be a professional hitter. I could care less about his numbers in Indianapolis, it's about process with him.

I'm open-minded to that happening on the big club, but he has to start performing better to stick in the Bigs.
 
I have a very long draft post queued up, but I'm going to wait until the game ends so that it doesn't get buried too far up in the thread, not that it actually has any analysis in it anyways. Lots of solid possibilities, and this draft really seems unpredictable in terms of how it is going to break down.

Hopefully Crowe and Bednar can lock this W down and slightly get the bad taste from the last who knows how many weeks out of our mouths. This has been some brutal baseball to watch, especially Cruz this weekend, but also in general. Without Reynolds, things are so so bleak.
 
Yeah I really disagree with all of this. What has Oneil Cruz accomplished in AAA? Nothing? Yep.

And he goes back to learn a new approach, to actually learn how to to be a professional hitter. I could care less about his numbers in Indianapolis, it's about process with him.

I'm open-minded to that happening on the big club, but he has to start performing better to stick in the Bigs.
I don't really know how to respond to this, because you say with a (false) rhetorical question that he's accomplished nothing in AAA and also that you don't care about AAA numbers.

If you are saying that he needs to achieve some kind of number of ABs in AAA, I don't really think that's defensible. If you are saying that the approach he has had in MLB for the past 2 weeks or so is the same approach that he had in AAA, then sorry, but I question whether you've really watched him in AAA.

The pitching in the minor leagues is not very good, especially at AAA and especially during this part of the season. Cruz is quite obviously getting picked apart right now by MLB pitchers, and I don't think it has anything to do with what he did or didn't do in AAA, or what he can do if he goes back down. We have seen him make adjustments vs. pitchers earlier in the year, and it's something he routinely did in AAA when he would get worked over in the first AB of the game.

Right now, he's just doing the same exact thing every AB and it's not working. Instead of going back to AAA, they need to have him take a different approach to his ABs in MLB. I have no inside information, but having watched Cruz regularly in the minors for the past two seasons, the excessively patient approach until two strikes is not his game at all, and so I question whether it's some kind of coaching decision at the MLB level for him to be doing this.
 
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Yeah I really disagree with all of this. What has Oneil Cruz accomplished in AAA? Nothing? Yep.

And he goes back to learn a new approach, to actually learn how to to be a professional hitter. I could care less about his numbers in Indianapolis, it's about process with him.

I'm open-minded to that happening on the big club, but he has to start performing better to stick in the Bigs.

There is some of truth to this. It's not like Cruz has had a ton of upper minors experience.

At some point, just figuring it out, doesn't work. I hope to the heavens Cruz does flip a switch soon, but make no mistake, if this pace continues for another week or 2, you have to seriously consider moving him back to AAA, not that I actually think there is anyone in Indy who can fix the issue(s), whatever the hell they may be, so in that regard, I get the hesitation in throwing him back to AAA.

Still, you have to hit to play every day. This won't cut it. I don't care if you're Ozzie Smith at SS.
 
I don't really know how to respond to this, because you say with a (false) rhetorical question that he's accomplished nothing in AAA and also that you don't care about AAA numbers.

If you are saying that he needs to achieve some kind of number of ABs in AAA, I don't really think that's defensible. If you are saying that the approach he has had in MLB for the past 2 weeks or so is the same approach that he had in AAA, then sorry, but I question whether you've really watched him in AAA.

The pitching in the minor leagues is not very good, especially at AAA and especially during this part of the season. Cruz is quite obviously getting picked apart right now by MLB pitchers, and I don't think it has anything to do with what he did or didn't do in AAA, or what he can do if he goes back down. We have seen him make adjustments vs. pitchers earlier in the year, and it's something he routinely did in AAA when he would get worked over in the first AB of the game.

Right now, he's just doing the same exact thing every AB and it's not working. Instead of going back to AAA, they need to have him take a different approach to his ABs in MLB. I have no inside information, but having watched Cruz regularly in the minors for the past two seasons, the excessively patient approach until two strikes is not his game at all, and so I question whether it's some kind of coaching decision at the MLB level for him to be doing this.
I apologize for the tone. And I stand by both statements. What has he done in AAA.? Tell me?

And to the other part, for me I need to see a plan. He certainly was improving his patience those last 6 weeks in AAA. I sure don't see that now, and I don't see a plan either.

He's constantly letting hittable pitches go, then swinging at balls.
 
I apologize for the tone. And I stand by both statements. What has he done in AAA.? Tell me?

And to the other part, for me I need to see a plan. He certainly was improving his patience those last 6 weeks in AAA. I sure don't see that now, and I don't see a plan either.

He's constantly letting hittable pitches go, then swinging at balls.
He put up a fine set of ABs for like 6 weeks at AAA. I don't buy into the idea that AAA is too meaningfully different than the AA level, so I just don't think he needs to reach some threshold of ABs at the level or something. I don't know if that's what you are suggesting, but if so, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

His approach is awful right now, but it's not the approach he had all throughout the minors and in AAA this year. I don't know if it's because he hasn't gotten comfortable yet or if it's some kind of mandate about how often to swing from the coaching staff that he isn't incorporating in any kind of dynamic way, but whatever the issue is, this is not going to work and I don't think going to face worse pitching is going to do anything for it.

My take for now is that he need another 25-30 games after the break, which are their own chunk of assessment. If the strikeouts continue to spiral, then obviously you may have to pull the plug a little earlier than that, but otherwise I just don't see another option other than to ditch the approach that isn't working for something else, and to do so at the MLB level. He could go hit .600 in AAA and when he comes back, he'll still need to do something else and adjust to MLB pitching.
 
Newman is one vet I honestly wouldn't mind keeping around on the relative cheap as a 2B (until someone better arrives full time) and utility player. He's hitting like he did in his rookie year. Definitely worthwhile. Chavis as well given his spectacular D at 1B and as a platoon guy vs lefties.

Jason Delay is absolutely the starting C the rest of the year and if he keeps up, even a fraction of the pace he's on now, will be the go to guy next year.
 
Nice to escape with a win and for Cruz to not end up with 5 Ks, as that would have really been brutal.

It's wild to me that you basically can't use a MLB tv subscription for any of the MLB specific things. They give away a bunch of games to other networks and you can't get the playoffs, all star game, or draft as far as I know. Guess I'll have the draft up on MLB dot com or try and find a stream if it's not there.

All the mocks are all over the place still, and there seem to be some significant departures among them. Callis/Mayo think we're really on Johnson, whereas Kiley seems to think that there's a firm top three of Jones, Holliday, and Parada, and that we'll take one if he is there (he has us taking Collier, with those three going 1-2-3). I will be surprised if the Orioles take Jones, but at the same time, the point about the O's not needing much savings to do a lot of damage is important to keep in mind.

If I were an O's fan, I would want my team to take Johnson for the savings and then force Cade Horton to our next pick, with Lesko as a backup if Horton goes in the top 10 as is rumored. I'll drop my quick ramble of names that stood out to me close to the start time of the draft, mainly so I have it for easy reference when the thing is going on.
 
Newman is one vet I honestly wouldn't mind keeping around on the relative cheap as a 2B (until someone better arrives full time) and utility player. He's hitting like he did in his rookie year. Definitely worthwhile. Chavis as well given his spectacular D at 1B and as a platoon guy vs lefties.

Jason Delay is absolutely the starting C the rest of the year and if he keeps up, even a fraction of the pace he's on now, will be the go to guy next year.
Shitting all over Cruz while touting the futures of Kevin Newman and Jason Delay is pretty ridiculous.
 
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Here are some of the names that stand out to me and how I'd like to see things unfold today. I'll treat the first pick on its own and then throw some names up by player type for the next two picks, since they are reasonably close together (36 and 44). This kind of thing isn't much more than throwing stuff at the wall, though I guess last year, this resulted in me liking Solometo just fine, really wanting White, and having no idea about Chandler this year.

Pick #4 (in order): Termarr Johnson, Elijah Green, Cam Collier
Johnson just seems to be the nicest all-around option, as I've said in a lot of recent posts. I trust the elite approach and hit tool, everything else will work out. Green would be the bold move, but I can only see it if he's also taking a slight shave. Collier works just fine, but I've cooled a little on him as more of a longer-term developmental project (in that case, I'd just as soon go with Green's upside and premium position).

Prep pitchers (in order): RHP Dylan Lesko, RHP Brock Porter, LHP Noah Schultz, RHP Walter Ford, RHP Ian Ritchie Jr., LHP Jackson Ferris, LHP Caden Dana, LHP Cade Obermuller
This is the type of player that seems to be a favorite for our second and third picks, and there's lot to like here. I think Lesko and Porter will both be gone, but perhaps not if we liked one well enough to promise a high bonus to force him down. Lots of mocks have had us taking Ferris, who seems nice, but I like the seemingly more aggressive move for the huge LHP in Schultz that's committed to Vandy. I also like Walter Ford a whole lot.

College pitchers (in order): RHP Cade Horton, LHP Connor Prielipp, LHP Carson Whisenhunt, LHP Cooper Hjerpe, RHP Drew Thorpe, LHP Reggie Crawford, RHP Adam Mazur, RHP Peyton Pallette, RHP Landon Sims, LHP Hunter Barco, RHP Thomas Harrington, RHP Trystan Vrieling
Another group where there's a lot to like and a good bit of depth. In this case I would not expect any of the first four I've listed here to be available, but it's possible one is. Horton seems like the kind of guy that you could buy away from most of the first round teams but also someone you could still get sniped on in doing so. Whisenhunt will be divisive because of the suspension, Hjerpe just would take a weirdly surprising run of things to be there and isn't quite the kind of profile you force to yourself, but I'd love it if he fell into our lap. I really like all of Thorpe, Crawford, and Mazur, so I hope we end up with one of them, and I'm intrigued with Sims if the opportunity is there. I also quite like Harrington and Vrieling, and they might even be possible at our third round pick if we have some muscle and they fall a little.

Prep bats (in order): SS Cole Young, SS Jett Williams, SS/RHP Owen Murphy, SS Max Martin
I've done less reading here, but the first two are very consistently 1st round guys. I think this type of player might be one of the surprising options we end up with for pick #36, based a little on the board and gut feeling. At some point in the first round, I think there's actually going to be a run on pitching, so in theory if there's a guy we like a decent bit and he starts sliding a little bit, then I can see us heavily targeting him for our second pick. That seems possible for the local kid in Young, and Williams is a real gamer who would be a fun prospect. Murphy is a legit two-way guy and would represent an exciting pick to pair in the system right behind Chandler.

College bats (in order): OF Chase DeLauter, OF Spencer Jones, 1B Tyler Locklear, OF Dylan Beavers, OF Jud Fabian, OF Brock Jones, C Daulton Rushing, SS Josh Kasevich
I think there's a lot of sneaky value as well as upside in this type of player, but it also depends on how things break. It's possible teams stay away from pitchers with their first pick, in which case more college bats are gonna get snatched up, but most mocks seem to have a fair number start coming off the board in the latter half of the first round. I would be surprised if DeLauter or Jones fell, but there are scenarios where it seems possible. Kiley had us getting DeLauter in his recent mock, and Jones just might not quite be the right fit for the teams who have the chance to take him with their first pick. I still like Fabian just fine for the upside, and some of the others are mega-power guys with hit tool questions, or safer profile types in Rushing and Kasevich that might pair nicely with higher risk guys.

Overall, this barely scratches the surface, as even a cursory glance shows how deep the options are in the draft. What's hard to tell given the nature of how many players there are and the information that's available before the draft is which players have higher bonus demands and what kind of upside they have relative to how worth it it is to take those shots. I think that's one reason why it was hard to take a look last year and see Chandler as a possibility, even as we had some sense that we were keen on an underslot strategy.

So without knowing who those players could be, it's hard to make any kind of big wish list, because if we go that strategy, then that Chandler type player is obviously the main prize out there. With that said, though, my initial sense is more that the depth of the draft should be something that rewards us no matter what, and we shouldn't need to do any extreme slot maneuvering in order to tap into it.

So if I were to call my shots entirely for the first three picks, then I think it would be Termarr Johnson, Chase DeLauter, and Walter Ford.
 
Shitting all over Cruz while touting the futures of Kevin Newman and Jason Delay is pretty ridiculous.

First off, Cruz was terrible today, he's largely been terrible at the plate since coming up. That's eye test, and stats. Secondly, I have not written Cruz off, you won't find a post that even hints it. I was the one who compared his start to Rodriguez and preached patience just a few days ago. Let's not resort to grade school replies and assertions.

Thirdly, those veterans I brought up are producing and play positions that we really don't have better options at, no.

Chavis is the best 1B we have. Is there someone on the roster or in the upper minors that represents an upgrade? No. Next.

Newman hits. He plays great D. He's a vet on a team with a ton of youngsters. As long as he's not blocking a Marcano or Bae or better player, he is valuable in his current form. For a cheap rate, his presence is a positive.

Delay is easily the best C we've seen this year, not counting Perez who isn't available anyway, and probably won't be moving forward. Where is the better replacement at C?

What's ridiculous about any of that again?
 
First off, Cruz was terrible today, he's largely been terrible at the plate since coming up. That's eye test, and stats. Secondly, I have not written Cruz off, you won't find a post that even hints it. I was the one who compared his start to Rodriguez and preached patience just a few days ago. Let's not resort to grade school replies and assertions.

Thirdly, those veterans I brought up are producing and play positions that we really don't have better options at, no.

Chavis is the best 1B we have. Is there someone on the roster or in the upper minors that represents an upgrade? No. Next.

Newman hits. He plays great D. He's a vet on a team with a ton of youngsters. As long as he's not blocking a Marcano or Bae or better player, he is valuable in his current form. For a cheap rate, his presence is a positive.

Delay is easily the best C we've seen this year, not counting Perez who isn't available anyway, and probably won't be moving forward. Where is the better replacement at C?

What's ridiculous about any of that again?
Is this serious? Jason Delay is 31 years old and had an OPS in the MINORS of .481 in 2021 and .579 in 2022. Kevin Newman has been trash for three straight years and this organization has middle infielders coming out its ass. I didn’t say anything about Chavis but if you want to get all geeked up about a guy who can’t hit RHP, have at it.
 
Is this serious? Jason Delay is 31 years old and had an OPS in the MINORS of .481 in 2021 and .579 in 2022. Kevin Newman has been trash for three straight years and this organization has middle infielders coming out its ass. I didn’t say anything about Chavis but if you want to get all geeked up about a guy who can’t hit RHP, have at it.
Delay is 27
 
Is this serious? Jason Delay is 31 years old and had an OPS in the MINORS of .481 in 2021 and .579 in 2022. Kevin Newman has been trash for three straight years and this organization has middle infielders coming out its ass. I didn’t say anything about Chavis but if you want to get all geeked up about a guy who can’t hit RHP, have at it.

Jason Delay is 27 bud. That renders the rest of your reply meaningless.

I'm not saying any of those guys are world beaters but right now, and as bench options down the line, they are good fits for a young team.

Holliday goes 1....

So Holliday at 1, has to mean Jones is coming off the board to Zona. Their OF in a few years could be the best in baseball, by a pretty wide margin if Thomas, Carroll, and Jones reach their ceiling.
 
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Right, Delay is 27. My bad. Doesn’t change the fact he has never hit and is a total non-prospect. Focusing on that while ignoring his production - or lack thereof - renders your post “meaningless” by that logic. He was brought up to be a bullpen catcher. But sure, let’s roll with him for the next couple of years. All good.

Good lord. I need a break.
 
Holliday 1.1 is solid for us in terms of Johnson. Seems like the consensus is it will be Jones at 2, then Parada or Lee at 3.

It's not gonna happen, but just for the chaos I would like to see the Dbacks take someone other than Jones.
 
Right, Delay is 27. My bad. Doesn’t change the fact he has never hit and is a total non-prospect. Focusing on that while ignoring his production - or lack thereof - renders your post “meaningless” by that logic. He was brought up to be a bullpen catcher. But sure, let’s roll with him for the next couple of years. All good.

Good lord. I need a break.

Except Delay is producing right now. Pretty much since they called him up. What was Jake Stallings doing at 27 again?
 
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