OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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Ugly swing to end an otherwise good at bat.

Forget this one and move on.

We suck. One of the worst starters in the last 2 years is pulling a Bumgarner.

Some of these ABs aren't even competitive.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, I have no problems with Cruz's at bat there. He took 3 balls he wasn't going to be able to do anything with, and got a crappy call on a pitch that was low that should have been a ball. I don't blame him for biting on a slider when the at bat is at 3-2 there.

Chavis with the golden sombrero, when he should be one of their best batters against lefties. This is horrible.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Ump probably calls that swing a strike anyways, at least 50/50.

The positive signs from the eye test are that he's not usually putting himself in bad situations to start the ABs. He's spitting on chase pitches. The exception tonight was a slider in the first AB.

Corbin has also been pretty nasty tonight, but this was predictable. Maybe we'll win late -- we're both bad teams who have pretty bad bullpens. Shelton riding a reliever for a second inning yet again.

 

[Gallatin]

No excuse for the poor throw (though I think a 1B can scoop that) but I'm actually more intrigued how Cruz responds the rest of the game. I am violating the problem to laser focus on every single thing he does, but with the bad chase to get behind in the count and then the strikeout + the error, I want to see him tighten things up and finish the game better, regardless of the results.

Glad Quintana bailed him out. I worry a little bit that Corbin, despite having horrible stats, could settle in here.

Hey Now - I think Cruz is ARod if he gets near that ceiling - however I would advise caution with your emotional investments right now. Oneil is going to struggle this year. Nothing wrong with it either, he's just not ready yet, Big Men take longer.

Let's try not to get too upset when he's OPSing .600...

I feel like it's kind of a curse that Cruz was so hyped up before joining the majors this year, because even though his stat line is still overall fine, I'm finding myself more and more disappointed with what he has shown so far.

Anyone else that was OPSing .650 at SS while playing solid defensively would be really encouraging (even with his error today, his defensive metrics so far are all really impressive), but the hype the Pittsburgh media put on Cruz just makes you want more from him.

I'm telling you guys, you want to be with me on this one. Lower those expectations, just be happy with the extreme physicals and a decent learning curve. He's got a long way to go, but he still could get there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This team deserved to lose today but getting screwed over by the ump like that makes it feel saltier.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Cruz and Chavis lost us this one tonight.

I'd take Corbin next year depending on how much WSH eats.

We suck. Embarrassing roster construction against LHPs. Like a bunch of guys that really shouldn't be facing any lefty are in the lineup.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm fully on board with not keeping Shelton at this point. I was optimistic when he was hired, but I've seen nothing out of him that makes me think he or his staff will be the people to take this team to the next level.

 

[Gallatin]

Great outing from Crowe there -- that's the kind of inning that could get a decent haul for him from a team looking for a bullpen weapon.

Why in the world would you trade a good bullpen arm right now? We're going to need Crow next year when this team starts competing.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Cruz did not improve this team, @DJ Spinoza.

You can argue that it's right for his development that he be challenged at the big league level. And that he fail. But that this guy improves the team...and hell, your ROY scaremongering, is wildly off-base and always has been. Cruz was never going to be very good here, in 2022.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Dude has been in the show for like a week and a half in his entire life.

Let's give Cruz 3 months of playing time before we try to make any meaningful assessments, good or bad.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Eh I think there's a middle ground here on Cruz. He's been extremely solid defensively, more than I think anyone here could have reasonably hoped for him. He has absolutely smoked the ball at times on the year, and has shown terrific speed on the bases as well. An OPS of like .650 with the defense he has provided at SS is perfectly solid. If not for the ridiculous hype around Cruz, I don't think there would be any complaints with him.

But on the other side, he's striking out a ton against lefties and has shown a clear impatience at the plate. I wouldn't call it a bad eye, but he's clearly not going up there with much of a willingness to take a walk. That's causing him to have a lot of weakly hit balls, he's trying to put it in play too much and it's causing weak pop-outs or ground outs.

Overall, I think he has been good but for a reason I didn't expect: his defense. Even with his error today, I've been extremely happy with his defense at the position. I'd have a much bigger problem if he looked problematic at SS with how he has performed at the plate, but I think he has been really good defensively.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Why in the world would you trade a good bullpen arm right now? We're going to need Crow next year when this team starts competing.

Because relievers vary wildly from season to season, so if someone offers you a genuine package, it's almost always wise to take it. I think it's far too hypothetical, though. Crowe doesn't have the track record to command the kind of package that would make it worth it.

Cruz did not improve this team, @DJ Spinoza.

You can argue that it's right for his development that he be challenged at the big league level. And that he fail. But that this guy improves the team...and hell, your ROY scaremongering, is wildly off-base and always has been. Cruz was never going to be very good here, in 2022.

I don't see much point in replying to this. It's an embarrassing level of talk around Cruz one week into his season, and I don't really enjoy this kind of nonsense. Peace out.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dude has been in the show for like a week and a half in his entire life.

Let's give Cruz 3 months of playing time before we try to make any meaningful assessments, good or bad.

I mean I feel like no one is jumping to crazy conclusions here? Jumping to a crazy conclusion would be saying something like "Cruz will be an above average SS defensively because he has been one so far in the MLB".

There were always concerns about him striking out a lot, him striking out in 8 of 14 at bats against lefties kinda just reinforces that idea.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't see much point in replying to this. It's an embarrassing level of talk around Cruz one week into his season, and I don't really enjoy this kind of nonsense. Peace out.

Like, whatever.

You are the stand-in here for all the people who said this guy was an immediate impact player. He isn't.

Again - just own the POV that it's good for him to get thrown in the deep end of the pool regardless of the result, and he'll do enough cool, statcast-breaking stuff to be entertaining.

You're the one who said you liked his odds to win ROY given enough time. Own it. What's Jo Adell up to now?

 

[dogthateats]

What a shit call. Not that it really matters

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also if you spend all season saying Cruz was down in the minors solely for service time manipulation, you can't just hand wave away his results in the majors as being too small of a sample size when he's not really performing to the capabilities you claimed he would perform at.

I don't like how people are trying to say you can't draw conclusions from what Cruz has done in the MLB so far. You can't make massively declarative statements, but you can absolutely look at how he has performed and give an opinion on where he's at development wise. Cruz looks extremely impatient at the plate, which is something of his that has been criticized in the past. He's striking out a ton, which is something of his that has been criticized in the past.

Jumping to conclusions with his time in the majors was something like the example I mentioned with his defense above. He's doing pretty much what his scouting report said he'd do outside of his defense, which has been way better than advertised.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

The Bucs have a lot of young lefty hitters on the roster right now. If these guys have any hope of developing the ability to hit ML lefties reasonably well, they are going to need to get at-bats.

My dad always used to say that the top sports leagues are not developmental leagues, but in this case, I have absolutely no issue with these guys getting reps to see what happens.

I mean, if they had gotten a few lefty bashers in free agency this offseason and got 3rd in the division instead of 4th or 5th what difference does it make? The franchise isn't going to resurrect themselves without building through youth.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Also if you spend all season saying Cruz was down in the minors solely for service time manipulation, you can't just hand wave away his results in the majors as being too small of a sample size when he's not really performing to the capabilities you claimed he would perform at.

I don't like how people are trying to say you can't draw conclusions from what Cruz has done in the MLB so far. You can't make massively declarative statements, but you can absolutely look at how he has performed and give an opinion on where he's at development wise. Cruz looks extremely impatient at the plate, which is something of his that has been criticized in the past. He's striking out a ton, which is something of his that has been criticized in the past.

I don't see great bat-to-ball ability. But then again I never have. It would be unbelievable if he had it given such long levers. I see decent discipline and an ability to look better in the 2nd AB versus the 1st.

If he had Castillo's bat to ball ability but with his natural tools, dude is a 1st ballot HOFer.

You're right the defense has been better, but you can see the throwing yips bubbling just below the surface.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I think Cruz still has a strong shot to win ROY this year.

The line I have consistently towed for the whole year is that he was ready to be challenged in MLB and that the sooner he was, the better. I would appreciate not being the canvas for other wild and goal-post moving ideas.

I think it is unspeakably embarrassing to throw a lot of the rest of this talk around after a week of games, especially a pretty fine first week. It may be a testament to why the eye test is unreliable, but I do not understand the refrain that he is impatient at the plate. He's spitting on chase pitches and getting into deep counts most of the time so far. He's fine.

It makes sense to zero in on Cruz's every move because he is an exciting and important player. Trudging up a meaningless 30 AB sample or some half-assed comparison is not worth discussing further.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I think Cruz still has a strong shot to win ROY this year.

The line I have consistently towed for the whole year is that he was ready to be challenged in MLB and that the sooner he was, the better. I would appreciate not being the canvas for other wild and goal-post moving ideas.

I think it is unspeakably embarrassing to throw a lot of the rest of this talk around after a week of games, especially a pretty fine first week. It may be a testament to why the eye test is unreliable, but I do not understand the refrain that he is impatient at the plate. He's spitting on chase pitches and getting into deep counts most of the time so far. He's fine.

It makes sense to zero in on Cruz's every move because he is an exciting and important player. Trudging up a meaningless 30 AB sample or some half-assed comparison is not worth discussing further.

Sure. You thinking he's got a strong shot to win ROY is a wild idea given what we've seen. No goalposts needed.

I'll agree that let's throw him in the deep end of the pool and he doesn't make the team worse at this juncture.

I still think he's potentially a great player down the line. But he isn't a great or even good MLB player now and was never going to be one in 2022.

I don't think he has plate discipline issues. I just think he doesn't make hard contact frequently enough. That's what we have to see develop over time at this level.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Cruz still has a strong shot to win ROY this year.

The line I have consistently towed for the whole year is that he was ready to be challenged in MLB and that the sooner he was, the better. I would appreciate not being the canvas for other wild and goal-post moving ideas.

I think it is unspeakably embarrassing to throw a lot of the rest of this talk around after a week of games, especially a pretty fine first week. It may be a testament to why the eye test is unreliable, but I do not understand the refrain that he is impatient at the plate. He's spitting on chase pitches and getting into deep counts most of the time so far. He's fine.

It makes sense to zero in on Cruz's every move because he is an exciting and important player. Trudging up a meaningless 30 AB sample or some half-assed comparison is not worth discussing further.

He also has 0 walks and 15 strikeouts through about 45 at bats at the MLB level.

You can say impatience is the wrong word, but Cruz has shown an absolute unwillingness to take a walk so far. He's trying to put the ball in play at every opportunity even if he's not getting the pitches to allow him to get on base.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The Bucs have a lot of young lefty hitters on the roster right now. If these guys have any hope of developing the ability to hit ML lefties reasonably well, they are going to need to get at-bats.

My dad always used to say that the top sports leagues are not developmental leagues, but in this case, I have absolutely no issue with these guys getting reps to see what happens.

I mean, if they had gotten a few lefty bashers in free agency this offseason and got 3rd in the division instead of 4th or 5th what difference does it make? The franchise isn't going to resurrect themselves without building through youth.

I get it. I recognize that results are ultimately meaningless this year. I was just hoping to see meaningful improvement over last year's 61 wins and that is slip-sliding away.

Edit: the main culprits is a complete failure against left-handed pitching and the bullpen imploding.

In the end, who cares if it's 58 or 68 wins anyway. You're right.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm also going through Cruz's at bats so far in the MLB and he's been swinging at a ton of stuff outside of the zone so far. He has gotten a couple of hits by swinging at stuff outside of the strike zone, but he has made a lot of outs swinging on pitches like his 3rd at bat today. That was him swinging on a clearly inside pitch and weakly grounding out to 1st while up 1-0 in the count.

I don't have a baseline to compare him to other players, so I don't know if he is truly doing this a lot relative to a lot of players do, but he seems to consistently have 1 or 2 outs a game that are him swinging at pitches outside of the zone and hitting weak popups or groundouts. I don't know what counts as "a lot" for swinging at pitches outside of the zone, but Cruz is well around the 1/4 or 1/3 pitches he takes are swings at pitches outside the zone.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm also going through Cruz's at bats so far in the MLB and he's been swinging at a ton of stuff outside of the zone so far. He has gotten a couple of hits by swinging at stuff outside of the strike zone, but he has made a lot of outs swinging on pitches like his 3rd at bat today. That was him swinging on a clearly inside pitch and weakly grounding out to 1st while up 1-0 in the count.

I don't have a baseline to compare him to other players, so I don't know if he is truly doing this a lot relative to a lot of players do, but he seems to consistently have 1 or 2 outs a game that are him swinging at pitches outside of the zone and hitting weak popups or groundouts. I don't know what counts as "a lot" for swinging at pitches outside of the zone, but Cruz is well around the 1/4 or 1/3 pitches he takes are swings at pitches outside the zone.

I do get the vibe that he often decides before the pitch whether he's going to just swing away or whether he's going to take a pitch or at least evaluate.

Some of the really bad swings, the 2 where he lost his grip on the bat so far, were on pitches that he was committed to swinging no matter what. I think they were both against changeups but I haven't gone back and looked.

One thing to note tonight - regardless of what recent stats say Patrick Corbin is awfully talented and I still think he's an intimidating pitcher to face when he's on. If he were a free agent this winter I think a dozen or more teams would have interest in him as a reclamation guy. Just obviously not for 2 yrs/$60M which is his (nuts) contract.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

He also has 0 walks and 15 strikeouts through about 45 at bats at the MLB level.

You can say impatience is the wrong word, but Cruz has shown an absolute unwillingness to take a walk so far. He's trying to put the ball in play at every opportunity even if he's not getting the pitches to allow him to get on base.

Yes, impatience is not the word I would use to describe that. If he was impatient, we'd see him up there hacking away and getting himself regularly behind in the count and generally having bad ABs. Instead, it looks more like he has a clear plan when he's at the plate and is recognizing pitches well. More walks will need to come, but I think it's far more important that he look comfortable and stay aggressive. His walk totals at AAA took a big step forward this year.
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Stepping back, more generally, I just think this is all kind of an absurdity and the only way I know how to contribute to the lessening of that is by not continuing to post. It has been one week. He had a bad game tonight with the results, but three strikeout games are going to happen. We don't need grabs at meaningless statistical samples or comparisons to other players.

The most charitable interpretation I can give is that strong opinions get formed based on concentrated spans of games and expectations. I don't really know any other way to respond or have much more to say beyond that.