Puck Daddy: Team Europe World Cup players frustrated with format

[KriminellPipa]

I haven't dictated anything, just making a pretty obvious prediction.

A prediction you seem to base on the fact that some russians on a NA-forum hails the Soviet CC-victory of 1979 over an All-star team mainly composed of NA-players; and therefore come to the conclusion that if Finland wins the World Cup, all Finns will claim that to be the greatest hockey-achievement of all time for them? You know this since you know the Finnish mind-set because you have a Swedish wife; and have some friends that is Swedofinns? Correct?

 

[xxxx]

You see what they do and then you one again form your own opinions, which are still not facts. Considering that no games have been played, your near-magical ability to understand exactly what players are thinking by watching them play hockey is not sufficient to prove anything about this tournament yet.

Of course it's just my opinion.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

A prediction you seem to base on the fact that some russians on a NA-forum hails the Soviet CC-victory of 1979 over an All-star team mainly composed of NA-players; and therefore come to the conclusion that if Finland wins the World Cup, all Finns will claim that to be the greatest hockey-achievement of all time for them? You know this since you know the Finnish mind-set because you have a Swedish wife; and have some friends that is Swedofinns? Correct?

No, because it obviously would be the greatest achievement in the history of not just hockey, but sport in Finland, and also the reasons File is denying it are also equally obvious. First being he is resentful of who is organizing the tournament, second he feels it is a threat to the NHL going to the OG and third he feels Finland's chances of winning are very low. My connections to the Nordic countries are purely to refute his claim that I was clueless about them. My experience is that Swedes (and Finns) pride themselves in being knowledgeable about international things and it really throws them for a loop when you know more about their country than they know about yours. Seen it many times.

 

[FiLe]

No, because it obviously would be the greatest achievement in the history of not just hockey, but sport in Finland, and also the reasons File is denying it are also equally obvious. First being he is resentful of who is organizing the tournament, second he feels it is a threat to the NHL going to the OG and third he feels Finland's chances of winning are very low.

I don't resent this tournament because it's organized by the NHL. This tournament could be organized by through-and-through corrupt FIFA for all I care if they just got it right. As in, have it at regular intervals and no gimmick teams.

I *do* resent it for the threat it presents at the Olympics. But only because the Olympics get it right. If the NHL got this one right - see above what it would take - I would resent it far less, maybe even have my resentment mellow out over time entirely.

What I think about our chances of winning this thing has nothing to do with anything. Actually, you got your brain in an extremely peculiar twist here. After all, Finland's chances of winning gold at the Olympics aren't the greatest either, but I don't resent the OG one bit. How do you explain that, Mr. I-have-it-all-figured-out?

Finally, the reason I'm saying it'd not be an important win has nothing to do with my personal feelings. I'm saying that simply because the World Cup is not considered an important tournament here in Finland. And it is something not just me, but a number of other Finns have told you over the past couple of days. And these are not casual viewers, but guys who, like me, are enthusiastic, active followers of the game.

Like I already said, to prove you're not clueless, why don't you start hitting me with some hard evidence, Sherlock? Thus far you've presented nothing to back your views up than a bunch of lines you've drawn between things in your own little mind. You could, for example, get some testimonies from Finns who say this is a big thing, to counter what me and others have said. Shouldn't be too hard, with all these connections you say you have. I'm fully willing to entertain the idea that I'm actually living in a bubble and there are loads and loads of Finnish hockey fans outside it, waiting for the puck to drop. Thus far, my own probings to burst it have come up quite empty, but maybe you'll have better luck. I'll be right here and waiting.

And because you also seem to have Swedes disagreeing now, gauge them a bit too while you're at it.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

I don't resent this tournament because it's organized by the NHL. This tournament could be organized by through-and-through corrupt FIFA for all I care if they just got it right. As in, have it at regular intervals and no gimmick teams.

I *do* resent it for the threat it presents at the Olympics. But only because the Olympics get it right. If the NHL got this one right - see above what it would take - I would resent it far less, maybe even have my resentment mellow out over time entirely.

What I think about our chances of winning this thing has nothing to do with anything. Actually, you got your brain in an extremely peculiar twist here. After all, Finland's chances of winning gold at the Olympics aren't the greatest either, but I don't resent the OG one bit. How do you explain that, Mr. I-have-it-all-figured-out?

Finally, the reason I'm saying it'd not be an important win has nothing to do with my personal feelings. I'm saying that simply because the World Cup is not considered an important tournament here in Finland. And it is something not just me, but a number of other Finns have told you over the past couple of days. And these are not casual viewers, but guys who, like me, are enthusiastic, active followers of the game.

Like I already said, to prove you're not clueless, why don't you start hitting me with some hard evidence, Sherlock? Thus far you've presented nothing to back your views up than a bunch of lines you've drawn between things in your own little mind. You could, for example, get some testimonies from Finns who say this is a big thing, to counter what me and others have said. Shouldn't be too hard, with all these connections you say you have. I'm fully willing to entertain the idea that I'm actually living in a bubble and there are loads and loads of Finnish hockey fans outside it, waiting for the puck to drop. Thus far, my own probings to burst it have come up quite empty, but maybe you'll have better luck. I'll be right here and waiting.

And because you also seem to have Swedes disagreeing now, gauge them a bit too while you're at it.

This isn't rocket science. I'm arguing how the WCup would be perceived if Finland won, which obviously is different from your counter argument of how the WCup is perceived now. Knowing Finland's chances of winning are slim allows you to criticize the tournament now with little odds of being proven wrong later, again, kind of obvious.

 

[FiLe]

This isn't rocket science. I'm arguing how the WCup would be perceived if Finland won, which obviously is different from your counter argument of how the WCup is perceived now. Knowing Finland's chances of winning are slim allows you to criticize the tournament now with little odds of being proven wrong later, again, kind of obvious.

Conveniently, it also allows you to do the opposite from an equally rickety platform.

If questioning the other guy's motives based on nothing but personal perception is fair game now, I guess I can say you're using this as a handy excuse to silence some justified criticism you'd really not prefer to listen... because it's turning your ears maple leaf red.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Conveniently, it also allows you to do the opposite from an equally rickety platform.

If questioning the other guy's motives based on nothing but personal perception is fair game now, I guess I can say you're using this as a handy excuse to silence some justified criticism you'd really not prefer to listen... because it's turning your ears maple leaf red.

I've been plenty critical of Bettman and the nhl on these boards, we are just motivated by different things.

 

[Jussi]

I've been plenty critical of Bettman and the nhl on these boards, we are just motivated by different things.

Based on your posting history on this particular board, your montivation is clearly the most ridiculously oversized inferiority complex that for some reason makes you think everyone is out to "screw" Canada when it comes to hockey.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Based on your posting history on this particular board, your montivation is clearly the most ridiculously oversized inferiority complex that for some reason makes you think everyone is out to "screw" Canada when it comes to hockey.

No, but if you spend a bit of time on these boards it's pretty obvious that most European hockey fans have similar attitudes towards NA with regards to the sport.

 

[xxxx]

No, but if you spend a bit of time on these boards it's pretty obvious that most European hockey fans have similar attitudes towards NA with regards to the sport.

I could agree with that.

 

[Jussi]

No, but if you spend a bit of time on these boards it's pretty obvious that most European hockey fans have similar attitudes towards NA with regards to the sport.

Nope. Russians maybe but they're a whole different breed. And barely European (don't even want to be that these days).

 

[Loffer]

Is this a joke?? What are these fake teams really?? I thought it was only some silly joke.

Wake me up before I start to think this is real and really happening!

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Nope. Russians maybe but they're a whole different breed. And barely European (don't even want to be that these days).

In the context of hockey Russia is pretty much 100% European. They might play some hockey in the Asian parts of Russia, but relatively speaking not a significant amount. Russians may hold the most extreme views with regards to NA hockey, but most Finns on these boards aren't far behind them.

 

[FiLe]

In the context of hockey Russia is pretty much 100% European. They might play some hockey in the Asian parts of Russia, but relatively speaking not a significant amount. Russians may hold the most extreme views with regards to NA hockey, but most Finns on these boards aren't far behind them.

If you loosened the tinfoil hat a bit, you might realize that the "hate" is not aimed at the North American hockey as a whole, but on some of the NHL's more unscrupulous business practices.

It's mostly cultural. We're criticizing these issues because we're not used to them, whereas they may be the norm to you. If something like that reared its ugly head here in Europe too, we'd hate them all the same. Matter of fact, they already have and we did. For example, during the 2012 WHC, there was a quite a debacle over the prices and certain other choices the organizing committee did, as some of those were seen as quite dirty. And the protesting paid off, since the federation had to back down a bit and admit they may have gone over the top.

Therefore, what you really should learn is that if there's noise, it's aimed at issues rather than the landscape as a whole. Crying "boo-hoo, Europeans hate us North Americans" is nothing but presumptuous self-victimization.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

If you loosened the tinfoil hat a bit, you might realize that the "hate" is not aimed at the North American hockey as a whole, but on some of the NHL's more unscrupulous business practices.

It's mostly cultural. We're criticizing these issues because we're not used to them, whereas they may be the norm to you. If something like that reared its ugly head here in Europe too, we'd hate them all the same. Matter of fact, they already have and we did. For example, during the 2012 WHC, there was a quite a debacle over the prices and certain other choices the organizing committee did, as some of those were seen as quite dirty. And the protesting paid off, since the federation had to back down a bit and admit they may have gone over the top.

Therefore, what you really should learn is that if there's noise, it's aimed at issues rather than the landscape as a whole. Crying "boo-hoo, Europeans hate us North Americans" is nothing but presumptuous self-victimization.

One of the things the NHL does that I think negatively impacts Europeans needlessly is having so many Euro players in the AHL. In my opinion it is much better for the Euro players and Euro leagues to have these guys back in Europe developing if they are not quite ready for the NHL. I think it should be in the standard player contract that players from Europe have a choice as to whether they play in the AHL or in a Euro league. Most of the pro leagues in Europe have an average skill level equivalent to the AHL's, so I don't buy the argument that they have to be in the AHL to develop for the NHL.

As for the rest of what you said, much of the criticism of NA from Euro's on this board goes well beyond the NHL. As for the tin hat and crying and all the other silly comments you make, please get a life, they really only show that you have nothing more of substance to add to the conversation.

I see that you are someone who always likes to have the last word and I will afford you that but leave you with a bit of advice.

There are only two countries in the world where Swedish is an official language and one of them is yours. If you see someone with a Swedish username you might want to think twice about calling them clueless about your country since there's a good chance they actually know a thing or two. For all you knew my connection to your part of the world might have been with the suomenruotsalaiset, in which case you'd have looked even more silly than you already do.

 

[FiLe]

One of the things the NHL does that I think negatively impacts Europeans needlessly is having so many Euro players in the AHL. In my opinion it is much better for the Euro players and Euro leagues to have these guys back in Europe developing if they are not quite ready for the NHL. I think it should be in the standard player contract that players from Europe have a choice as to whether they play in the AHL or in a Euro league. Most of the pro leagues in Europe have an average skill level equivalent to the AHL's, so I don't buy the argument that they have to be in the AHL to develop for the NHL.

Sneak edit: This is partially true. I guess it depends on an individual player what's the best place for development for him, because some aspects of ones game are better answered in the AHL and some in Europe. There certainly are players who are "unnecessarily" in the AHL because they could develop as effectively in Europe. But people are barking up the wrong tree if they feel it is the North Americans' fault as in most cases it's actually the player himself or the people close at him making the call.

Another thing that certainly feels aggravating at times is that the players' chances of playing for the NT are greatly diminished in the AHL. It almost feels like a black hole in that regard - a player is only NT worthy if he's playing in the Euro leagues or the NHL, no matter how good he is in reality. But even then, it's silly really to be blaming the North Americans - it's our own damn federations' and their officials' fault if they don't bother to keep tabs at them and scout 'em out better. It's not like the information isn't readily available.

There are only two countries in the world where Swedish is an official language and one of them is yours. If you see someone with a Swedish username you might want to think twice about calling them clueless about your country since there's a good chance they actually know a thing or two. For all you knew my connection to your part of the world might have been with the suomenruotsalaiset, in which case you'd have looked even more silly than you already do.

Like I already said, who you are and who you say you know has nothing to do with me calling you clueless. I'm calling a man clueless if he says stuff that reveals he's got no clue. And this would hold true even if you were originally from the deepest Finnish heartland.

Besides, we have minorities from all over and despite their "official" status (a historical remnant, really), the Swedish one really isn't all that much larger than the rest. We're one of the most homogenous countries on this Earth, as more than 90% of our population are Finnish-speaking Finns, with the rest being made up of various other cultural and language groups. If I really figured I should watch my words based on where an username hints at, I should keep a wary eye on all the English and Russian ones too. And that's only for starters. So trying to teach me on that account is another example of the fact that the information you possess about my country is rather rudimentary, really.

My turn with the advice:
Seriously, the resentment towards North American hockey is usually issue-based. So rather than challenging the guy outright, maybe you should listen and learn what his issue is. And if he really, after a bit of probing, can't bring any sense to it, then you should write him off as a raging loony and not give him any further time of your day. Sadly, there are some in every country and every culture (mine is not an exception), and there's no reason to make your conclusions of a broader group based on them.


And I don't really care who gets the last word in. But I do feel this sensation that's somewhere between irritation and amusement when I present valid points and the other guy ignores them (even moreso after a handful of repeats), probably because they don't fit in his personal agenda, or something.

 

[Atas2000]

The format is a bad joke. Nuffsaid, move along.

 

[Jussi]

Alpo Suhonen slams the whole format: http://www.mtv.fi/sport/jaakiekko/l...aa-world-cupin-nhl-bisnesta-ja-paskaa/5506380

 

[xxxx]

the biggest joke will be when Air Canada Centre is 100% full at all games, the final between Canada and say, US will attack TV records, and we see absolutely crazy good hockey, haha. Can't wait for that. It's easy to bash the tournament before it actually started. Enjoy yourself, you have about 11 months to go.

 

[Gaps]

Because not many people think positively of this tournament concept...

Exactly. There have been no positive comments regarding the format from anyone who's anybody in Finnish hockey at least. There was an article a couple of weeks ago where Koivu said he looks forward to playing for Finland again and getting to spend time with fellow Finns there, but he didn't (unsurprisingly) say anything about the gimmick teams. I'm too lazy to look up the article now, but it was on MTV.

 

[JackSlater]

the biggest joke will be when Air Canada Centre is 100% full at all games, the final between Canada and say, US will attack TV records, and we see absolutely crazy good hockey, haha. Can't wait for that. It's easy to bash the tournament before it actually started. Enjoy yourself, you have about 11 months to go.

Of course it will make money - they're trying to sell hockey, in Canada, with no competition from the NHL. It may turn out to feature the most entertaining brand of hockey we've ever seen for all any of us know. Unfortunately the tournament is a joke because four of the eight teams are at a handicap that is completely unnecessary and idiotic.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Of course it will make money - they're trying to sell hockey, in Canada, with no competition from the NHL. It may turn out to feature the most entertaining brand of hockey we've ever seen for all any of us know. Unfortunately the tournament is a joke because four of the eight teams are at a handicap that is completely unnecessary and idiotic.

Good morning from the west coast. A good piece of news coming out of Russia and the KHL this morning. Apparently, according to the KHL vice president, the league will not suspend play for the World Cup and it doesn't seem like they are all that open to the idea of releasing KHL NT players to play in it. He went on to say that it is strictly an NHL preseason tournament exclusively for NHL players. and that if there are not enough Russian NHLers to complete a full roster, then the Russian Ice Hockey Federation should augment the roster with promising junior age players who are playing in junior leagues. Their priority is their league and the IIHF World Hockey Championship and not the NHL and it's World Cup.

Hopefully this is just the beginning and Bettman's tournament begins to unravel.

http://www.sovsport.ru/blogs/blog/bmessage-item/43259

 

[FiLe]

Good morning from the west coast. A good piece of news coming out of Russia and the KHL this morning. Apparently, according to the KHL vice president, the league will not suspend play for the World Cup and it doesn't seem like they are all that open to the idea of releasing KHL NT players to play in it. He went on to say that it is strictly an NHL preseason tournament exclusively for NHL players. and that if there are not enough Russian NHLers to complete a full roster, then the Russian Ice Hockey Federation should augment the roster with promising junior age players who are playing in junior leagues. Their priority is their league and the IIHF World Hockey Championship and not the NHL and it's World Cup.

If that comes to pass, it may also lead to some unorthodox names being picked to the Finnish and Czech squads. At least they won't be the theoretically "best possible" selections.

So, let's see... two mickey mouse teams... Canada and USA (thanks to the U23 first dibs) plus Russia, Finland, and the Czech Republic (thanks to the KHL not releasing players) with some limitations to their selection... only Sweden escapes somewhat unscathed. Sounds like a real best-on-best now, doesn't it?

 

[JackSlater]

Good morning from the west coast. A good piece of news coming out of Russia and the KHL this morning. Apparently, according to the KHL vice president, the league will not suspend play for the World Cup and it doesn't seem like they are all that open to the idea of releasing KHL NT players to play in it. He went on to say that it is strictly an NHL preseason tournament exclusively for NHL players. and that if there are not enough Russian NHLers to complete a full roster, then the Russian Ice Hockey Federation should augment the roster with promising junior age players who are playing in junior leagues. Their priority is their league and the IIHF World Hockey Championship and not the NHL and it's World Cup.

Hopefully this is just the beginning and Bettman's tournament begins to unravel.

http://www.sovsport.ru/blogs/blog/bmessage-item/43259

So if that comes to pass then it's only one nation with their actual best roster. Seeing some of the posts around here though, I'm guessing we would still see some people supporting further gimmicks as long as the NHL tells them to.

 

[Theokritos]

He went on to say that it is strictly an NHL preseason tournament exclusively for NHL players. and that if there are not enough Russian NHLers to complete a full roster, then the Russian Ice Hockey Federation should augment the roster with promising junior age players who are playing in junior leagues.

In North American junior leagues, to quote him precisely. So no Russians playing in Russia would participate in the World Cup at all if the KHL gets its way. Strictly NHLers and CHLers.