Prospect Info: Prospects and Marlies Thread: Marlies Calder Cup Champions Edition

[hector morrison]

Once Grundy is ready, really think Hyman should be our 4C. He is pretty much what you want for a checking C, good D, great fore checker, good in FO, pretty fast and got a nasty streak. He is Tom Wilson in the making.

4th line C is going to be a hotly contested position...unless there is existing bias with contracts/coaches. However ,the suggestion of Zach at C would definitely send a message to the other wanna bees. Give some decent wingers and I"m on board with that!

 

[hector morrison]

I'm expecting close to a point-per-game AHL season from Bracco this year. I think this will be his coming out party.

So skilled...so small...not sure if he can translate to NHL game.
Yes, there have been previous examples of his physical stature being successful.
Yet,reality for any young offensive players on the Marlies is that there are guys on the Leafs that aren't going anywhere anytime soon who are better! So, unless an injury happens or bizarre trade ,the outlook is bleak for these young guys. Perhaps a trade for someone like Bracco is better option for him.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I'm not sure how he is on draws but if he was adequate, this would be an interesting experiment.

Hyman was once a center, but he has not been for a while I do not think. Right now I think he could be a Komarov type center. Could step in for a draw if the guy gets kicked out, and is the guy who takes draws on the PK (since most likely he'll be put with someone like Brown or Kapanen who would be far worse at taking draws), but not good enough to be a full time center.

He has more value as a top 9 LW. We have Lindholm as a 4C, but if he moves from the top 9 LW, we would have Johnsson, Leivo and Ennis on the LW. I can trust Johnsson and Leivo handling the 3rd and 4th line duties (wherever they end up playing), but I do not trust them as 2nd and 3rd liners yet... Especially when you have an undersized depth forward like Ennis as the 4th liner.

 

[Obliviate]

Mathews needs no help 'digging'....he needs someone with skill. The sad part is that Hyman doesn't cut top six on any team in the league,but you think he is a top line winger! I've seen enough! I watched Willy and Auston both ignore a wide open Hyman on a regular basis! Why would they take him off that line ,as the rumor suggests and I can only hope is true? So he can compliment Tavares,bet Johnny can't wait !

Yeah, they thought so little of him that they'll put him with JT and Marner.

Ignorance is bliss, amigo.

 

[hector morrison]

Yeah, they thought so little of him that they'll put him with JT and Marner.

Ignorance is bliss, amigo.

You think any other coach would do that? You would do that? There isn't any better option to you? Willfully ignorant is what you are!

 

[biotk]

Once Grundy is ready, really think Hyman should be our 4C. He is pretty much what you want for a checking C, good D, great fore checker, good in FO, pretty fast and got a nasty streak. He is Tom Wilson in the making.

There is no chance that Hyman is ever going have his ES minutes cut in half so he can play C on the fourth line. And if Hyman was at center much of his effectiveness as a forechecker goes away. Tom Wilson is not a C either, and it would be a complete waste of what Wilson is good at.

 

[biotk]

Hyman was once a center, but he has not been for a while I do not think. Right now I think he could be a Komarov type center. Could step in for a draw if the guy gets kicked out, and is the guy who takes draws on the PK (since most likely he'll be put with someone like Brown or Kapanen who would be far worse at taking draws), but not good enough to be a full time center.

All of the Leafs PKing forwards take draws. Last year it was generally Komarov (L) with Hyman (R) as the top PK unit with whoever was strong side taking the draw, and then Kapanen (L) with Brown (R), again with whoever was strong side taking the draw.

If things stay the same as last year, then the loss of Komarov means that another lefty is needed. Johnsson is L and so is Lindholm. I think it is likely that Kapanen moves to the top unit with Hyman which would be a great pairing for speed.

Worrying about whether a player is good at faceoffs seems to have minimal value for penalty killing. (and players are better on their strong side, so it is common that two inferior players at faceoffs who are both only taking strong side draws will have a better winning percentage than one superior player at faceoffs who is taking both strong side and weak side draws.)

If you put out a Center who was 55% on draws instead of putting out a player who is a better penalty killer but only 45% on the draws what have you gained?

In the first situation 11 times out of 20 the puck is hopefully dumped down the ice and you have killed 10, maybe 15 seconds, but then you are still killing a long chunk of penalty with the inferior penalty killer. The other 9 times out of 20 you lost the draw and are killing from the start with the inferior penalty killer.

In the second situation 9 times out of 20 the puck is hopefully dumped down the ice and you have killed 10, maybe 15 seconds, but now you are killing that long chunk of penalty with the better penalty killer. The other 11 times out of 20 you lost the draw and are killing from the start with the better penalty killer.

So in first situation for every 20 faceoffs on the PK, you have gained 20 or 30 seconds total of the puck being dumped down the ice off the draw, but for the other 15 - 20 minutes you have an inferior penalty killer on the ice. That is worse.

 

[Boutette]

So skilled...so small...not sure if he can translate to NHL game.
Yes, there have been previous examples of his physical stature being successful.
Yet,reality for any young offensive players on the Marlies is that there are guys on the Leafs that aren't going anywhere anytime soon who are better! So, unless an injury happens or bizarre trade ,the outlook is bleak for these young guys. Perhaps a trade for someone like Bracco is better option for him.

190lbs is not small. To keep this in perspective, Tampa last year, for instance, averaged 193lbs *as a team*, and most *teams* averaged around200lbs across the board or less. Injuries happen, trades happen. In the cap world at team needs to shed high priced contracts on a regular for low priced players who can offer better bang for the buck and ensuring balance. Does Toronto keep a 60+ pt player in Nylander, as an example, for 6-7 mil a year? when he can be replaced with a 50+ pt Bracco who will cost 1-3 mil and spend the difference on improving defense or keeping the likes of Kapanen and Johnsson on the team, also at a cheaper price than Nylander? In a cap world a 10pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player is trumped by a 20pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player every day of the week.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

190lbs is not small. To keep this in perspective, Tampa last year, for instance, averaged 193lbs *as a team*, and most *teams* averaged around200lbs across the board or less. Injuries happen, trades happen. In the cap world at team needs to shed high priced contracts on a regular for low priced players who can offer better bang for the buck and ensuring balance. Does Toronto keep a 60+ pt player in Nylander, as an example, for 6-7 mil a year? when he can be replaced with a 50+ pt Bracco who will cost 1-3 mil and spend the difference on improving defense or keeping the likes of Kapanen and Johnsson on the team, also at a cheaper price than Nylander? In a cap world a 10pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player is trumped by a 20pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player every day of the week.

I get what you’re saying: bang for your buck. But it would be important to take into consideration context and usage. Sure Bracco could get 50pts, but you’d have to be playing him with a Nylander-calibre player for him to do that. Why not aim to keep your Nylanders and instead trade away your Braccos and Browns for help when they’re looking for market value of a 50pt Nylander.

 

[Boutette]

I get what you’re saying: bang for your buck. But it would be important to take into consideration context and usage. Sure Bracco could get 50pts, but you’d have to be playing him with a Nylander-calibre player for him to do that. Why not aim to keep your Nylanders and instead trade away your Braccos and Browns for help when they’re looking for market value of a 50pt Nylander.

Why not? Because trading a Nylander is the only option for getting a top 4 RD the team could afford, where as trading a Bracco or a Brown will most certainly not. And RD is the *only* position now where the organization is weak.

And as for your argument, no, you'd have to have Bracco playing with a Matthews, Tavares or Kadri-like player, as he is a *right winger* with elite playmaking ability. I'm not advocating getting rid of any of our 3 #1 centers who will be eating about 30% of our cap for the forseeable future and who are *all* goal scorers who need *playmakers*. The organization has a wealth of cheap and talented wingers coming through the pipes, making expensive wingers by necessity expendable if they are overpaid according to their talent level and can be replaced by those who are underpaid according to their talent level for as long as the team can get away with it. That's how operating a top team in the NHL under the cap works.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Why not? Because trading a Nylander is the only option for getting a top 4 RD the team could afford, where as trading a Bracco or a Brown will most certainly not. And RD is the *only* position now where the organization is weak.

And as for your argument, no, you'd have to have Bracco playing with a Matthews, Tavares or Kadri-like player, as he is a *right winger* with elite playmaking ability. I'm not advocating getting rid of any of our 3 #1 centers who will be eating about 30% of our cap for the forseeable future and who are *all* goal scorers who need *playmakers*. The organization has a wealth of cheap and talented wingers coming through the pipes, making expensive wingers by necessity expendable if they are overpaid according to their talent level and can be replaced by those who are underpaid according to their talent level for as long as the team can get away with it. That's how operating a top team in the NHL under the cap works.

First you wrote a post indicating you take Bracco @ $3m over Nylander @ $6.5m. Then you think I said Nylander wasn’t a right winger. And to top it all of you reply in a condescending manner.

Poor reading skills? Check.
Poor writing skills? Check.
Ignorantly arrogant? Check.

A trifecta of me not wanting to waste my time.

 

[Boutette]

When people respond with insults to a cogent debate this is any intelligent person's reaction:

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

When people respond with insults to a cogent debate this is any intelligent person's reaction:

The *funny* thing is you *didnt* even know *what* was being *debated*

 

[Obliviate]

You think any other coach would do that? You would do that? There isn't any better option to you? Willfully ignorant is what you are!

You have no evidence to the contrary. What we actually know is one of the top coaches in the NHL trusts Hyman enough to stick him in the top 6. I'll take that over some rando internet blowhard any day.

 

[kb]

Why not? Because trading a Nylander is the only option for getting a top 4 RD the team could afford, where as trading a Bracco or a Brown will most certainly not. And RD is the *only* position now where the organization is weak.

And as for your argument, no, you'd have to have Bracco playing with a Matthews, Tavares or Kadri-like player, as he is a *right winger* with elite playmaking ability. I'm not advocating getting rid of any of our 3 #1 centers who will be eating about 30% of our cap for the forseeable future and who are *all* goal scorers who need *playmakers*. The organization has a wealth of cheap and talented wingers coming through the pipes, making expensive wingers by necessity expendable if they are overpaid according to their talent level and can be replaced by those who are underpaid according to their talent level for as long as the team can get away with it. That's how operating a top team in the NHL under the cap works.

Nylander isn't being traded for a top-4 D. There is no way a guy who scored 8 goals and 32 points in 50 games in the AHL is replacing Nylander, unless your goal is to enjoy a permanent rebuild hoping to draft more players as talented as Nylander. Let's try to remember that Bracco is only 10 months younger than Nylander. And 61 points has been Nylander's lowest full season total. No reason to believe it won't be upwards of 70-75 as early as this season.

The Leafs have a top-4 (possibly top 2) RHD in the system already in Lilegren. The smart money says you look for a stop gap veteran top-4 on an expiring contract to pair with Rielly for this season, and push Hainsey to the bottom pair where he will get less minutes allowing him to PK all night long.

The Leafs have a lot of younger promising D right now in Borgman, Rosen, Sandin, Durzi, Rasanen, even Holl, etc....blowing their brains out for a D-man at this point would be a dumb move IMO.

The Leafs were 3rd out of 16 teams in the Eastern Conference in GA, only 2 GA out from second. Better than Washington. Better than Tampa. And they got rid of the defensive black holes that were JVR and Bozak, and have replaced them with Tavares and the likes of Johnsson and Kapanen. A clear upgrade on the D without even touching it because the days of being hemmed in will be gone. Tavares excels at zone exits. Bozak and JVR couldn't execute one to save their life.

 

[4thline]

The idea of a Bracco/Kapanen/Korshkov being a cost effective replacement/downgrade for Nylander only comes into play if his contract demands force us into a bridge and trade as an RFA scenario

 

[hector morrison]

190lbs is not small. To keep this in perspective, Tampa last year, for instance, averaged 193lbs *as a team*, and most *teams* averaged around200lbs across the board or less. Injuries happen, trades happen. In the cap world at team needs to shed high priced contracts on a regular for low priced players who can offer better bang for the buck and ensuring balance. Does Toronto keep a 60+ pt player in Nylander, as an example, for 6-7 mil a year? when he can be replaced with a 50+ pt Bracco who will cost 1-3 mil and spend the difference on improving defense or keeping the likes of Kapanen and Johnsson on the team, also at a cheaper price than Nylander? In a cap world a 10pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player is trumped by a 20pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player every day of the week.

I wasn't aware of his weight! The low center of gravity can be useful.
To the point of money being the reason a player like Bracco gets a Leaf job,that isn't gonna happen any time soon.Unless he becomes a defensive specialist with a scoring touch(similar to Kadris path) .
Also,if the Leafs or any team decide they are in the'go for it mode' they will keep the better player,of which Willy clearly is. You can't always be rebuilding and trying to win....sooner or later you have to actually win,then deal with your cap problems.A recent example being Chicago.

 

[hector morrison]

You have no evidence to the contrary. What we actually know is one of the top coaches in the NHL trusts Hyman enough to stick him in the top 6. I'll take that over some rando internet blowhard any day.

Yeah, he did that in Dertoit as well. Not in agreement with his strategy,he is as stubborn as he is intelligent! Good man? sure! However,he is not as great as some make him out to be! He wouldn't take Hyman off Matthews wing even when they were losing,he played Komarov on the PP,he likes to prop up 'grinders' (I think he was that kind of player) pure stubborness.
He has won some hardware in the past ,but all those teams were absolutely stacked,any decent coach could have won those International contests,not a huge accomplishment really! Also, it's been 10 years since he won his only Stanley Cup and check out that roster sometime!
Maybe his methods need to be reviewed,they appear to be out-dated.
Here he has another offensively stacked team,hope he doesn't mess it up!

 

[Joey Hoser]

190lbs is not small. To keep this in perspective, Tampa last year, for instance, averaged 193lbs *as a team*, and most *teams* averaged around200lbs across the board or less. Injuries happen, trades happen. In the cap world at team needs to shed high priced contracts on a regular for low priced players who can offer better bang for the buck and ensuring balance. Does Toronto keep a 60+ pt player in Nylander, as an example, for 6-7 mil a year? when he can be replaced with a 50+ pt Bracco who will cost 1-3 mil and spend the difference on improving defense or keeping the likes of Kapanen and Johnsson on the team, also at a cheaper price than Nylander? In a cap world a 10pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player is trumped by a 20pts to 1 mil production ratio offensive player every day of the week.

The idea that Bracco can step in to our top line and be Matthews' setup man in Nylanders place and not lose much is complete nonsense. Nylander is a 60+ point top line winger and Bracco isn't even a very good AHL player right now.

Literally one of the dumbest things I've heard around in a long time. I face-palmed so hard, I think I gave myself a concussion, and it's totally your fault, you basically assaulted me.

 

[Joey Hoser]

You think any other coach would do that? You would do that? There isn't any better option to you? Willfully ignorant is what you are!

Yeah most coaches do that actually, because few teams actually have 6 top-six forwards. Hell, we might be the deepest team in the league up front, and we only have 6, and one of them plays on our third line.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

When people respond with insults to a cogent debate this is any intelligent person's reaction:

The idea that Bracco can step in to our top line and be Matthews' setup man in Nylanders place and not lose much is complete nonsense. Nylander is a 60+ point top line winger and Bracco isn't even a very good AHL player right now.

Literally one of the dumbest things I've heard around in a long time. I face-palmed so hard, I think I gave myself a concussion, and it's totally your fault, you basically assaulted me.

Turns out *I* was actually pretty *polite* about your *opinions* wasn’t I * @Boutette *?

 

[Joey Hoser]

Hey I insulted the idea, not the person.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Until he can prove that in an NHL context you can't make that claim.

I'll modify to say that there is a lot of reason to believe Grundstrom will be a much better finisher than Hyman

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Hey I insulted the idea, not the person.

It was just a root cause analysis for the issue you found.

 

[Cor]

Man, it's stupid how quality of a draft the Islanders had. Certainly helps ease the pain of Tavares leaving them, at least a little bit.

Noah Dobson
Oliver Wahlstrom
Bode Wilde
Ruslan Iskhakov
Jakub Skarek
Blade Jenkins

All guys I really liked in this years draft. Don't know a whole lot about Pivonka and Krygier.