Speculation: Prospal's play and the gentleman's agreement

Nanabijou

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Just my 2 cents, it's fruitless to list forward lines and say why Prospal doesn't fit while listing a bunch of left wingers who couldn't carry Prospal jock strap last year. This roster will be renovated this week and some of those wingers won't be here as soon as even next Sunday. Wouldn't be surprised if Johansen is sent packing soon too.

I don't disagree with you. I think there are many people here who would rather have Prospal at 2.5 M for a year than Umberger at 4.5 M for the next 4. But, trading Umberger is a very difficult proposition with the cap going down. I think we need to hope that Umberger rebounds - he really should be able to match Prospal's numbers the last couple of years but the question is whether he will.

Dubinsky is another matter. I could see Edmonton being very interested in him but I'd rather keep him.

Regardless, it's clear that Jarmo is willing to wait to see what dominoes fall over the next couple of weeks before committing to Prospal. I'm really curious to what's going to go down. I think Jarmo is going to be pretty aggressive.
 

db2011

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I'm not diminishing Vinny at all. He was the leading scorer on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league. He's a solid player who has value but he's also nearing 40 and only going to slow down. that's the reality. Doesn't mean he couldn't be a fit but there are far more pressing needs. Vinny is not at the top of the list. Just my opinion and we've all debated how we would want the situation handled. I like him and would be happy if he returned but I also know that Columbus isn't a team that can afford to pay someone $15+MM to NOT play for us (RJ or Wiz or whatever buyout people think we should do).

We'll see what happens. I still peg Bob, Arty and handling the draft/trades prior to July 5th as a much higher priority. I know that some don't agree and that's OK.

He was also the leading scorer on one of the most competitive teams in the league.

I like JK playing hardball with other GMs when talking trades. I don't like him playing hardball with a major piece of the locker room and the score sheet who is saying in plain (if accented) English that he believes in this team. I'm wary of a desire to sign some "stud" who may not have the capacity to appreciate this place.

It can't be stressed enough in my opinion that "doing it the right way" isn't being applied to the Prospal situation.
 

db2011

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I don't disagree with you. I think there are many people here who would rather have Prospal at 2.5 M for a year than Umberger at 4.5 M for the next 4. But, trading Umberger is a very difficult proposition with the cap going down. I think we need to hope that Umberger rebounds - he really should be able to match Prospal's numbers the last couple of years but the question is whether he will.

Dubinsky is another matter. I could see Edmonton being very interested in him but I'd rather keep him.

Regardless, it's clear that Jarmo is willing to wait to see what dominoes fall over the next couple of weeks before committing to Prospal. I'm really curious to what's going to go down. I think Jarmo is going to be pretty aggressive.

I remember a discussion thread at one point debating what it might mean for JK to want to put "his mark" on the team. This to me is treading dangerously close to the negative potential of that.
 

JacketsDavid

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I want Vinny back, but realistically if we add a couple legit top line forwards he may not be needed. He's not a 4th line forward, likely at this point most teams view him as a 3rd line guy who can easily transition to a top 6 spot if a young guy struggles or if an injury occurs. I have no doubt played like a top 6 forward for us last year, but given his age you never know when the drop-off will occur.

That being said I hope we have room for him. I'm not so sure if Gabby comes here if it wasn't for Vinny talking to him.

My guess (as others have mentioned) is we want maximum flexibility for the draft. If we take 3 young guys, then we need Vinny. If we trade a couple picks for established forwards then we don't need him. Anywhere in the middle (just adding one forward) and I think it's a coin toss, but would lean towards his return. But I can understand the CBJ not wanting to tie up a roster spot just in case there are teams dumping salary, coveting picks.
 

cbj21

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If they don't bring him back it's a big FAIL in my eyes. A big piece of the turnaround. A much bigger piece than Jarmo or even JD has been so far. It's a no brainer.
 

KeithBWhittington

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If they don't bring him back it's a big FAIL in my eyes. A big piece of the turnaround. A much bigger piece than Jarmo or even JD has been so far. It's a no brainer.


What would you think if he was brought back in a front office capacity, like was planned when this whole thing started? Would Vinny be willing to up and move again just to play another year or two if CBJ brass came to him and said that they wanted him back, just not on the ice?
 

Mayor Bee

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If they don't bring him back it's a big FAIL in my eyes. A big piece of the turnaround. A much bigger piece than Jarmo or even JD has been so far. It's a no brainer.

Agreed.

I think it's difficult to argue that I haven't done a lot of research and analysis on team history. Part of it involves trying to get inside the minds of Doug MacLean and Scott Howson, establishing the setting and trying to determine the thought process and the logic that went into each decision. There's a really small number of moves or chains of moves where the (likely) logic that went into it is nonsensical.

It's like the Chris Rock bit on "...but I understand." I may not like a move that was made, but if I think about it from all sides, I can understand what went into it. I can even see the small amount of logic that went into letting Ray Whitney walk away for nothing, but that assumes that what's long been rumored about the contract length and dollar amounts being true. The deals that defy any type of logic are pretty small. For me, a 2003 2nd-rounder for Grant Marshall is the one that tops the list. Drafting Kiel McLeod at all is right there. The total list of 100% illogical moves in the entirety of team history is less than 10, possibly less than 5. And if Prospal walks away, letting it happen will slot right into that.

(As an aside, because I've been trying to be good and not steer conversations this way...if Howson were still in charge and we were having this discussion, would the reaction on this board be the same? Maybe it's just me, but I see a handful of people wondering what the hell the holdup is, and a lot of "Ah, that is different! If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right".)
 

TBJF

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I agree with Mayor Bee

I can see a certain logic to not bringing Prospal back, particularly if they bring in two (or more?) veteran forwards.

But I also think Prospal was a major piece of the culture change we saw last season. From that viewpoint, not trying to bring him back in some role, however limited, looks a lot like The Great Mike Peca Screw-Up.

And we saw where that led!

Just my 'pinion. . . .
 

Kev22

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I think the histrionics in this thread are getting embarrassing of course that is par for the course at HF. Here's an idea, let JK and JD try to execute their plan and then make judgement. Who knows they might be able to sign/acquire a couple of upgrades, Bob, Arty and then have some to throw at Vinny. The front office wants a couple of weeks to survey the lay of the land. I think things will start to come in focus once the Cup finals are over. Buyouts will be announced shortly after. I think all of this will be resolved within a couple of weeks.
 

Nordique

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I can see a certain logic to not bringing Prospal back, particularly if they bring in two (or more?) veteran forwards.

But I also think Prospal was a major piece of the culture change we saw last season.
From that viewpoint, not trying to bring him back in some role, however limited, looks a lot like The Great Mike Peca Screw-Up.

And we saw where that led!

Just my 'pinion. . . .

That is the perception of alot of fans, myself included. I see Vinny to some extent as the embodiment of JD's "we won't be outworked" philosophy, and losing him wouldn't feel right. Futhermore I have trouble imagining any scenario where this team has 13 forwards better than the guy that led the team in scoring last year....thats just outrageous to even suggest. Yes, he is aging, thats about the only argument I can concede...and you could even counter that by pointing out that he hasn't missed a game since his arrival.

I remember a discussion thread at one point debating what it might mean for JK to want to put "his mark" on the team. This to me is treading dangerously close to the negative potential of that.

Well yeah, that was and is my fear. Prospal was a Howson guy with a "gentlemen's agreement" to be part of this organization for a long time. I hope that isn't a factor here.
 

blahblah

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Well yeah, that was and is my fear. Prospal was a Howson guy with a "gentlemen's agreement" to be part of this organization for a long time. I hope that isn't a factor here.

Meh that was one of the first things mentioned in the afterglow of the JK/JD signings. Not so much the mark on the team but if he/they would honor the agreement. Clearly they aren't, at least not blindly. I highly doubt it has anything to do with Howson being the originator, after all Wright is still around.
 
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db2011

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Well yeah, that was and is my fear. Prospal was a Howson guy with a "gentlemen's agreement" to be part of this organization for a long time. I hope that isn't a factor here.

Tricky!

I don't think the gentlemen's agreement factors into an assessment that JK is putting/forcing "his mark" on the team by stringing Vinny along. In the sense that without the gentlemen's agreement between the player and the ex-GM, we still have a (very) productive veteran and leader expressing directly to the fans that he believes in the team and wants to return.

I would think if you transferred this general situation to another team/fanbase in which no "gentlemen's agreement" existed, there would be a good amount of fans wondering what the hell is taking the new GM so long in signing that kind of an asset. And fretting that he may by trying a little too hard to put his stamp on the team.

edit: which is maybe just a long way of saying I don't think the gentlemen's agreement should factor in either or tie JK's hands. Only Vinny's play/leadership/loyalty should do that.
 

Mayor Bee

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I don't think the gentlemen's agreement factors into an assessment that JK is putting/forcing "his mark" on the team by stringing Vinny along. In the sense that without the gentlemen's agreement between the player and the ex-GM, we still have a (very) productive veteran and leader expressing directly to the fans that he believes in the team and wants to return.

I think it goes even beyond that. This season was Prospal's 20th pro year, and he has not won a Stanley Cup. 1,108 NHL games, and the one year out of seven that he wasn't in Tampa was the year that they won (he was in Anaheim).

Columbus is not winning a Cup in the next two years, which is when he would likely retire. No one can dispute that Prospal is a highly competitive individual; he could've come in here and played out the string. Instead, he challenged the organization to send out the last remnants of the country club (including the just-acquired Jeff Carter, and the head coach).

By wanting to return, Prospal is saying that he would rather be here, in Columbus, than win a Stanley Cup. That's an incredibly powerful statement to make.
 

pete goegan

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I think the histrionics in this thread are getting embarrassing of course that is par for the course at HF. Here's an idea, let JK and JD try to execute their plan and then make judgement. Who knows they might be able to sign/acquire a couple of upgrades, Bob, Arty and then have some to throw at Vinny. The front office wants a couple of weeks to survey the lay of the land. I think things will start to come in focus once the Cup finals are over. Buyouts will be announced shortly after. I think all of this will be resolved within a couple of weeks.

I agree.
 

EspenK

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one way to view Prospal being the leading scorer is that our other forwards are offensively challenged. Unfortunately they are either signed for longer than they should (Umbie) or are looked at as up and comers who should start producing more-Cam,AA,Calvert,Joey. Gaborik I'm sure is being counted on for 30 +/-. The rest,who knows. Maybe they will produce at their best levels,Dubi,Letetu.

Bottom line this team needs more goal scorers and tying up a spot at this point for Vinny just doesn't make sense.

I questioned signing him last year, which in retrospect was wrong, but sooner or later he will be too old. I'd rather have him gone a year too soon than a year too late.
 

General Jacket70

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I think the histrionics in this thread are getting embarrassing of course that is par for the course at HF. Here's an idea, let JK and JD try to execute their plan and then make judgement. . . . . I think all of this will be resolved within a couple of weeks.

I don't know which beguiles me more; the fact that you wrote the obvious, or the fact that you thought the obvious needed to be written. . . ;)
 

db2011

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I think the histrionics in this thread are getting embarrassing of course that is par for the course at HF. Here's an idea, let JK and JD try to execute their plan and then make judgement. Who knows they might be able to sign/acquire a couple of upgrades, Bob, Arty and then have some to throw at Vinny. The front office wants a couple of weeks to survey the lay of the land. I think things will start to come in focus once the Cup finals are over. Buyouts will be announced shortly after. I think all of this will be resolved within a couple of weeks.


I don't know which beguiles me more; the fact that you wrote the obvious, or the fact that you thought the obvious needed to be written. . . ;)

well see here's the thing fellas, and I'll try not to get too hysterical for you :sarcasm:, and I can only speak for myself, but why wait to reserve judgement about this? The deference shown to JD/JK is beginning to be a little much. I'm glad they're here, I imagine they're going to be the best in their positions yet for this team, but you know I like to think for myself sometimes and in this case their feet dragging is beginning to rub me the wrong way. The value of Prospal is high and as Mayor Bee points out his value is especially high for this very club. We can "wait and see" but at a certain point even if Vinny comes back I'll feel JK was pretty arrogant in how he was yanking him around- and we may have reached that point already.

But the other thing is I'm surprised and dismayed to hear so much sentiment from posters ready to move on to the young stud who's gonna do for this franchise... the very thing Prospal has done for it since he's been here.

It's the old lure of the "shiny new object" that sometimes is mentioned on this board.
 

EspenK

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It's the old lure of the "shiny new object" that sometimes is mentioned on this board.


I don't think it is that at all. I think it is if we could somehow obtain Bobby Ryan or Thomas Vanek or a comparable talent who is years younger than Vinnie and probably a bigger offensive threat long term, the team will have taken a big step to becoming a serious contender.

I think it is taking a look a the future rather than the past; and I'm not talking one year I'm talking longer term.
 

Crede777

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I just think it's a very low risk to bring him back.

Yes roster space may be an issue, but let's not kid ourselves. There are a few players in front of Prospal who "deserve" to either be demoted or let go instead of him. If JK wants to be a ball-breaker, let him bust up some of the guys who don't show up for the first half of the year.
 

pete goegan

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I don't think it is that at all. I think it is if we could somehow obtain Bobby Ryan or Thomas Vanek or a comparable talent who is years younger than Vinnie and probably a bigger offensive threat long term, the team will have taken a big step to becoming a serious contender.

I think it is taking a look a the future rather than the past; and I'm not talking one year I'm talking longer term.

Once again, I agree.

I just think it's a very low risk to bring him back.

Yes roster space may be an issue, but let's not kid ourselves. There are a few players in front of Prospal who "deserve" to either be demoted or let go instead of him. If JK wants to be a ball-breaker, let him bust up some of the guys who don't show up for the first half of the year.

"Ball buster?" The current season isn't even over, yet! Is Vinnie the only unsigned player around? I would like Vinny back, too, unless there's someone better to take his place. That evaluation should take into account his value both on and off the ice. Thats how teams get better. Point is, we, as usual, have no idea the true circumstances of the situation. Why the rush to paint Prospal as a betrayed hero?

My earlier agreement was not with the characterization of the debate as "hysterical," but with the idea that all the angst is just a wee bit premature. I'm not of the opinion the JD and Keklu (still not completely comfortable with that, but...) are incapable of mistakes, I'd just like to have an actual action taken before I start picking at them. That's just me, I suppose.

Carry on.
 

Crede777

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pete goegen said:
"Ball buster?" The current season isn't even over, yet! Is Vinnie the only unsigned player around?

No of course not, but JK and JD have taken a similar approach to Bobrovsky and Anisimov.

At some point they need to realize that it's a two-way street, you can't have a "my way or the highway" approach.
 

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IF they choose not to bring Vinny back, but instead address the position he would have taken in a logical way (i.e. bringing in a proven scorer, further veteran leadership [although at that point I'd certainly prefer Vinny]) then I'll be sad and disappointed but would get over it.

Having said that I believe that Vinny helps make the team well-rounded and I'd like to have him back. And, honestly, I think there's untapped celebration potential we can only dream about. A playoff goal celebration? Dare I even mention a Cup Finals goal celebration? We need to see those.
 

FlaggerX

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IF they choose not to bring Vinny back, but instead address the position he would have taken in a logical way (i.e. bringing in a proven scorer, further veteran leadership [although at that point I'd certainly prefer Vinny]) then I'll be sad and disappointed but would get over it.

Having said that I believe that Vinny helps make the team well-rounded and I'd like to have him back. And, honestly, I think there's untapped celebration potential we can only dream about. A playoff goal celebration? Dare I even mention a Cup Finals goal celebration? We need to see those.

I think we the fans would all like to have Vinny back, if the numbers work. Perhaps we'll get him. But it strikes me that management has its own reservations. I hope they get it right.
 

pete goegan

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No of course not, but JK and JD have taken a similar approach to Bobrovsky and Anisimov.

At some point they need to realize that it's a two-way street, you can't have a "my way or the highway" approach.

What approach do you see them to have taken? I believe they're in contract negotiations with representatives of both Bob and AA. All they've said about Vinny is that they want to wait until they see where they are after the draft before deciding how to proceed with him. It appears to me that some here want a fan favorite resigned immediately, no matter how it impacts the team. That isn't prudent asset management. If Vinny returns, I want it to be because it's been determined that he's the best option available for that team slot. That's how teams win championships.
 

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