Toggle sidebar

Proof is in the Pudding - John Tavares

  • Xenforo Cloud has upgraded us to version 2.3.6. Please report any issues you experience.
IPS said:
And who says goal differential decides who gave who the toughest series?
Click to expand...
Not sure how even the most basic of stats is being criticized now, lol. What do you prefer to use? Both the poll in the playoff forum and the poll in the poll forum had the same conclusion through the first 3 rounds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Auston Escobar
Dekes For Days said:
Not sure how even the most basic of stats is being criticized now, lol. What do you prefer to use? Both the poll in the playoff forum and the poll in the poll forum had the same conclusion through the first 3 rounds.
Click to expand...

The only thing that actually counts in the end. Are raw playoff wins also wildly inaccurate too?
 
  • Like
Reactions: rubous
rubous said:
what does this even mean?, who won the series?, who won the cup?, seems the poster answered the question, and is correct
Click to expand...
It means what it says. The poster did not answer the question, and they are not correct.
Tampa won all of the series. What does that have to do with anything?
 
Bomber0104 said:
As one of the only marquee unrestricted free agents to willingly come to Toronto in franchise history, I find it very hard to criticize John Tavares, period.

The contract is going to suck eventually but that's the nature of the beast when you're signing players to max contracts past their prime.

Let's just hope that's at least a couple more seasons away.
Click to expand...
It already sucks.
 
As the OP of this thread, probably the main motivation was just the lack of flak towards Tavares compared to Marner. Just didn't understand it.
The Leafs lost, players have to be blamed, plain and simple. Frustrated fans need to vent. ...let's share the blame somewhat.

Think a problem comes down to who to use on Tavares's wings. You have to think RW will be either Nylander or Marner. The only LW that seemed to really click was pre-injury Mikheyev, and at that, would that work in all cases? eg. Had he not been hurt, would he of been as good against a team like Columbus?

The way I would expect, Tavares should play with a Class-A offensive player and a Class-B offensive player with good defense. --and hopefully with some grit to make it even harder to play against.
The grit isn't there... unless you're talking Simmonds. So who can provide offense AND defense?

- Kerfoot has been tried and didn't work
- Simmonds ran a 1.50 points/60 with Philly (The highs and lows combined.) Which would be around Andrea Johnsson's last year offensive rate. Is he a 'defensive' forward?
- Vasey, has been a consistant 1.42/points per game player. That being said, not sure he's ever had the chance of playing with two star offensive forwards either. Think he could be that silent partner that provides some offense while bringing defensive balance.
- Mikheyev is someone I would be hoping for a good arbitration if it wasn't for the Cap. That injury was pure nasty and personally know that sometimes things like that can also become a mental block as well. His playoffs weren't good but we can say that about most of the team.
- Petan - no.
- Engvall - no.
- Barabanov ?

To me, there's a lot of question marks that will impact Tavares and we don't even know. Probably turn around just to find out Dubas traded Nylander and Liljegren for Patrik Laine.
I don't know what to expect.
 
Chief keefe said:
Ok the moment you compared JT to Gardiner is the moment I was able to confirm this is not a serious post. Jake Gardiner is like 14 tiers below what JT is. JT is a good Player in his own zone. He isn't Kopitar or Mathews good but he is good... The only thing I agree with is that JT is NOT the leader this team needs.
Click to expand...
To be honest, I truly believe that he's holding the mantle for Matthews anyway. I think that after Matthews' incident last summer, they offered it to JT in the interim. Not unlike the Sharks-except premeditated.
 
Throw More Waffles said:
Cutting it off at 59 points seems very strange. Why 59?

I'd argue that the Rangers had SEVEN players with 40 or more points. The leafs just FOUR.
Click to expand...
It's also strange that you don't mention Hyman had 37 points in 51 games(59 point pace) , Barrie had 39 points in 70 games(45 point pace),and Kapanen 36 points in 69 games(42 point pace). I mean, the Leafs would have had 7 players with 40 or more points had there been more games. Fast who was 8th on the Rangers in points, has 29 points in 70 games which is on pace for 33 points, so the Leafs and Rangers would still be on par in total with the total number of players scoring 40 or more points. Both teams had 4 players with 50 or more points as well. Also, it helps that Strome and Zibanejad basically had career years this past season. It isn't even certain if they'll keep that up next season. At least with Nylander, Matthews, Tavares and Marner, they all consistently scored 60 or more points in the past 4 seasons baring 1 exception with Nylander's contract dispute shortened season where he was on pace for 41 points
 
  • Like
Reactions: Menzinger
Stephen said:
Panarin is in the running for the Hart Trophy this season after signing that contract, which is a level Tavares and Marner have not come close to as Maple Leafs.
Click to expand...

I was going to mention this.


also Tavares’ deal, not ideal but I guess understandable if you want him ( I didn’t). The Marner deal... Wtf was that?
 
moon111 said:
As the OP of this thread, probably the main motivation was just the lack of flak towards Tavares compared to Marner. Just didn't understand it.
The Leafs lost, players have to be blamed, plain and simple. Frustrated fans need to vent. ...let's share the blame somewhat.

Think a problem comes down to who to use on Tavares's wings. You have to think RW will be either Nylander or Marner. The only LW that seemed to really click was pre-injury Mikheyev, and at that, would that work in all cases? eg. Had he not been hurt, would he of been as good against a team like Columbus?

The way I would expect, Tavares should play with a Class-A offensive player and a Class-B offensive player with good defense. --and hopefully with some grit to make it even harder to play against.
The grit isn't there... unless you're talking Simmonds. So who can provide offense AND defense?

- Kerfoot has been tried and didn't work
- Simmonds ran a 1.50 points/60 with Philly (The highs and lows combined.) Which would be around Andrea Johnsson's last year offensive rate. Is he a 'defensive' forward?
- Vasey, has been a consistant 1.42/points per game player. That being said, not sure he's ever had the chance of playing with two star offensive forwards either. Think he could be that silent partner that provides some offense while bringing defensive balance.
- Mikheyev is someone I would be hoping for a good arbitration if it wasn't for the Cap. That injury was pure nasty and personally know that sometimes things like that can also become a mental block as well. His playoffs weren't good but we can say that about most of the team.
- Petan - no.
- Engvall - no.
- Barabanov ?

To me, there's a lot of question marks that will impact Tavares and we don't even know. Probably turn around just to find out Dubas traded Nylander and Liljegren for Patrik Laine.
I don't know what to expect.
Click to expand...

Tavares was one of the most coveted UFAs to hit free agency...he's not the problem...he's one of the most prolific goal scorers since entering the league, has been a Hart finalist twice and finished 1 point behind the Art Ross race one year...Marner hasn't done much of anything in the NHL compared to Tavares...Marner is lucky to have played with Tavares in his contract year...Tavares turned Anders Lee into a 40 goal scorer before he left the Isles.

Here are their stats playing with each other a year ago...it's clear who benefited who the most.

Tavares: 47 goals, 88 points...previous career high is 38 goals, 86 points
Marner: 26 goals, 94 points...previous career high is 22 goals, 69 points
 
hockeywiz542 said:
The Maple Leafs put John Tavares ahead of team-building two years ago, and they’ve been paying ever since | The Star

There’s a school of thought, after all, that all the roster shuffling and cap jockeying in the world cannot possibly compensate for the franchise’s original team-building sin. That original sin was widely seen as the return of a prodigal son. The 2018 summertime signing of John Tavares brought the Leafs a team captain, a point-a-game scorer and more even-strength goals over the past two seasons than anybody not named Alex Ovechkin, Patrick Kane, Auston Matthews and Leon Draisaitl. But while the Tavares deal was a moment out of a storybook — complete with the timeless image of a tiny Tavares tucking into his Maple Leafs sheets and dreaming of a starring role for his hometown team — it continues to put undeniable stress on their salary-cap-limited pocketbook, and not only because Tavares’s no-movement clause means he’s essentially in command of his guaranteed-salary whereabouts until 2025.

“(Tavares) was an unnecessary signing,” Craig Button, the former NHL general manager, said during a segment on TSN’s Free Agent Frenzy coverage on Friday. “It was not what the Toronto Maple Leafs needed … They’re built up the centre. They’re not built up anywhere else.”

Paying Tavares $77 million (U.S.) over seven years set the baseline for negotiations that led to Toronto’s top four players earning about half of the now-flat salary cap of $81.5 million. It led to Matthews rightly demanding to be the highest-paid player on the team at $11.6. It led to Marner demanding only slightly less at $10.9. And even if William Nylander’s $6.9 million cap hit doesn’t seem so egregious with Nylander coming off a 31-goal season, the team’s kid-gloved negotiations on that deal — which came after Tavares but before Matthews and Marner — spoke to an inability to convince players to take the hometown discounts team president Brendan Shanahan had once spoken hopefully about securing.

None of this, it ought to be pointed out, is a knock on Tavares, the player. It’s a question of Tavares, the fit. Yes, jersey-burning New York Islanders fans will point out that the Islanders have won more playoff series in the two seasons since Tavares departed (three plus a play-in round) than they won in Tavares’s nine seasons as the franchise’s cornerstone (one). And jittery Leaf fans will note that Tavares, coming off an underwhelming 26-goal season, turned 30 last month and, unless he’s subscribing to the LeBron James Cocktail of the Month Club, likely isn’t getting better from here. But this isn’t a question of the excellence of a highly-paid player so much as the requisite sacrifice of team depth that comes with acquiring him.

“It’s not about John Tavares,” Button said. “It’s about how you build your team. The bottom line is (the Tavares deal) was a signing that has hurt and hindered and handcuffed the Toronto Maple Leafs because of the salary cap.”

Indeed, every dollar counts. Even if the Leafs had landed Tavares at the number they’d originally offered — something closer to $10 million — they’d be in far better shape today. It wouldn’t have just saved them about $1 million on Tavares’s cap hit. It would have, ideally, pushed down the cap hits of Matthews and Marner. And those savings would have meant something. Heck, last off-season the Maple Leafs made what’s now seen as the mistake to swap Nazem Kadri for Alex Kerfoot in part to save a measly $1 million or so annually at the third-line centre position.

An extra few million a season might have saved the Leafs from scrimping on backup goaltending, which has put them in trouble ever since Curtis McElhinney left the building. It might have allowed them to retain one or both of Kasperi Kapanen and Andreas Johnsson instead of throwing them over the side for cap purposes this off-season and putting a considerable dent in next season’s potential for depth scoring. There’s no telling the difference it might have made.
Click to expand...

Pretty fair assessment.

What 98% of the rest of the hockey world seems to think outside of a few believers?
 
moon111 said:
As the OP of this thread, probably the main motivation was just the lack of flak towards Tavares compared to Marner. Just didn't understand it.
The Leafs lost, players have to be blamed, plain and simple. Frustrated fans need to vent. ...let's share the blame somewhat.
Click to expand...

There's a pretty good reason as to why Marner was getting more flak than other players, not all of it because of his contract. There's also a good reason as to why Tavares wasn't feeling it as much from us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: qqaz
The hot takes that pass as analysis in this place is truly merde.
Ya ok...Marner was carried by Tavares:laugh:
 
Bomber0104 said:
Year One was a tough act to follow for JT.

He was bound to disappoint a portion of fans after a year nearly everything went right for him, production-wise.
Click to expand...
The odd thing is, people are saying Tavares disappointed in his second season, despite nearly being a point per game player lol . Despite being hurt , He still would have had more points this season than 2 of his last 3 seasons in New York as he was on pace for 33 goals and 78 points had he played a full 82 game season. He also would have ended up 3rd in goals scored behind Nylander and Matthews, which if we're being honest, Nylander isn't likely to score more goals than Tavares many more times during his tenure in Toronto. Though, I'd be happy if he kept scoring 30 goals though lol
 
Bomber0104 said:
Pretty fair assessment.

What 98% of the rest of the hockey world seems to think outside of a few believers?
Click to expand...

The usual suspects getting their shorts in a knot over an alternate opinion.

The signing of JT changed what appeared to be a slower team development strategy of going with youth and surrounding it with more seasoned role players.

Some believe adding JT that was the correct thing to do, others believe it was the wrong way to go.

At this point in time neither opinion has been proven.
 
KuleminFan41 said:
The odd thing is, people are saying Tavares disappointed in his second season, despite nearly being a point per game player lol . Despite being hurt , He still would have had more points this season than 2 of his last 3 seasons in New York as he was on pace for 33 goals and 78 points had he played a full 82 game season. He also would have ended up 3rd in goals scored behind Nylander and Matthews, which if we're being honest, Nylander isn't likely to score more goals than Tavares many more times during his tenure in Toronto. Though, I'd be happy if he kept scoring 30 goals though lol
Click to expand...

However isn't this all relevant to a players actual cap hit/AAV?

There are a lot of players playing near a PPG pace and not making $11 mil. So expectations are tied to remuneration and not just production alone but how much cap you use up for that production or bang for your cap buck.

John Tavares is tied for 5th in the entire NHL at $11 mil AAV. Yet JT in goals didn't finish in the top 25 nor top 30 in points.

In contrast Artemi Panarin, NYR signed as a UFA also for $11.643 mil placing him 2nd highest AAV, and he put up 69 games 32 goals 63 assists 95 points which placed him 13th in goals and tied for 3rd in overall points and was runner up for Hart Trophy as NHL most valuable player. While Tavares 63 games 26 goals 34 assists 60 points finished -35 points behind Panarin for just 643k more cap usage.

With Leafs having 3 of the 7 highest AAV players they all should be putting up Panarin like stats and being considered for NHL MVP player receiving Hart consideration.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rubous
Mess said:
However isn't this all relevant to a players actual cap hit/AAV?

There are a lot of players playing near a PPG pace and not making $11 mil. So expectations are tied to remuneration and not just production alone but how much cap you use up for that production or bang for your cap buck.

John Tavares is tied for 5th in the entire NHL at $11 mil AAV. Yet JT in goals didn't finish in the top 25 nor top 30 in points.

In contrast Artemi Panarin, NYR signed as a UFA also for $11.643 mil placing him 2nd highest AAV, and he put up 69 games 32 goals 63 assists 95 points which placed him 13th in goals and tied for 3rd in overall points and was runner up for Hart Trophy as NHL most valuable player. While Tavares 63 games 26 goals 34 assists 60 points finished -35 points behind Panarin for just 643k more cap usage.

With Leafs having 3 of the 7 highest AAV players they all should be putting up Panarin like stats and being considered for NHL MVP player receiving Hart consideration.
Click to expand...
Tampa bay won the cup not the Rangers, not the leafs. They are in a chokehold by the cap right now. We aren’t. The top Lines carried the team and the bottom done nothing much. Two of the 3rd line are gone. Management seems to think improving the bottom 6 is the key.
 
Mess said:
John Tavares is tied for 5th in the entire NHL at $11 mil AAV. Yet JT in goals didn't finish in the top 25 nor top 30 in points.
Click to expand...

Why don't we look at his entire body of work with the leafs.

Since his signing with the leafs he is 10th in goals league wide with 73 goals and 22nd in points with 148.

He has outproduced some significant names in those times.

In goals:
Panarin
Eichel
Skinner

In points:
Crosby
Malkin
Stone
Seguin

Now these players are similar dollar or relative % of cap at time of signing and were entering UFA status at time of signature.

I am gonna use goals as a comparison because let's be real thats why we signed him. Really the only people who he isn't out performing who is at a similar cap/signing status are:

Stamkos - 1 goal
Kucherov - 1 goal
Mcdavid - 2 goals
Kane - 4 goals
Matthews - 11 goals
Draisatl - 20 goals
Ovechkin - 26 goals

Now all of these players have experienced injuries including John over the last 2 years.

John Tavares is one of the best high profile free agent signings to join another team in the cap period.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stopclickbait and SAMCRO44
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom