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Proof is in the Pudding - John Tavares

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everyone on these board can remember anything past 1 season ...

he finished 5th in the league 2 years ago in goals per game and first overall for a center ...
sure he had a bad year for his standards but he got injured early and have 2 really bad slumps, even that being said he finished top 25 in goals and point per game. Imagine we are criticising a gy who on a bad year finished TOP25 !!!

also stop comparing centers to wingers ... they are more valuable and cost more ... full stop
 
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rubous said:
does it even matter?
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No, not really, which is why I'm surprised my comment got such a reaction, especially since it was the same opinion as the majority.

Tavares played pretty well against Columbus, so not really sure why that's being used against him anyway.
 
Memories of When They Were Good will haunt us soon- contract will be an albatross perhaps already is
 
The good thing about recent Leaf additions is we now have an extra Wayne Simmonds to form a grind line with Tavares. I think that’s a play style and pace that results in JT doing some of his best work down low. Forming a duo with Marner is great but having an extra line mate who thrives in the corners and in traffic will help bring out that high end grind game. Generally I’d say get him away from open ice.
 
Stephen said:
The good thing about recent Leaf additions is we now have an extra Wayne Simmonds to form a grind line with Tavares. I think that’s a play style and pace that results in JT doing some of his best work down low. Forming a duo with Marner is great but having an extra line mate who thrives in the corners and in traffic will help bring out that high end grind game. Generally I’d say get him away from open ice.
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Simmonds might very well end up playing up the line-up and with Tavares to give that line more of a presence and ability to penetrate the defensive box and play near the blue paint as well as win more Ozone puck battles, depending on how much left in the tank he has.

Lots of wear and tear on him and his style over the years that he might now only be a depth physical presence.
 
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Mess said:
Simmonds might very well end up playing up the line-up and with Tavares to give that line more of a presence and ability to penetrate the defensive box and play near the blue paint as well as win more Ozone puck battles, depending on how much left in the tank he has.

Lots of wear and tear on him and his style over the years that he might now only be a depth physical presence.
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If Simmonds is healthy as he says he is, id like this setup myself
 
Larcos_Unal said:
I've got no problem with JT's game other than the fact he skates like he's wearing steel toe boots. He'll always have the hands/shot, he's just gonna slow down further in the coming years and it scares the hell out of me.

Outside of his game, his demeanor is not what I'd want in a captain. He's just a quiet, aloof guy that could probably inspire you to make your bed or make some nice smoothies, but to go into battle? I doubt it bros.
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If I was picking Leafs to be on a special forces unit by personality, I think I might take Tavares first... I bet he has a pretty good war face when the occasion comes.
 
KuleminFan41 said:
Toews has won 3 cups while having the same characteristics you're saying Tavares has. In fact, his team mates joke about it and call him "Captain Serious" . As much as I love Rielly and wouldn't be opposed to naming his captain, I think you're overselling him a little bit
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Like the Dog Whisperer says "calm and assertive" You don't need your captain drinking the most beer on fortnite night
 
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Mess said:
However isn't this all relevant to a players actual cap hit/AAV?

There are a lot of players playing near a PPG pace and not making $11 mil. So expectations are tied to remuneration and not just production alone but how much cap you use up for that production or bang for your cap buck.

John Tavares is tied for 5th in the entire NHL at $11 mil AAV. Yet JT in goals didn't finish in the top 25 nor top 30 in points.

In contrast Artemi Panarin, NYR signed as a UFA also for $11.643 mil placing him 2nd highest AAV, and he put up 69 games 32 goals 63 assists 95 points which placed him 13th in goals and tied for 3rd in overall points and was runner up for Hart Trophy as NHL most valuable player. While Tavares 63 games 26 goals 34 assists 60 points finished -35 points behind Panarin for just 643k more cap usage.

With Leafs having 3 of the 7 highest AAV players they all should be putting up Panarin like stats and being considered for NHL MVP player receiving Hart consideration.
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No. Because you cannot compare contracts one player signed in 2018, to one signed in 2015 or 2016 or before. Things change, cap goes up and most importantly, on that top 10 list, only 3 of those players didn't sign their contracts with the team that drafted them to get that contract to begin with. UFA drives up the price of a contract, we all know that but John Tavares has been a steady performer throughout his entire career, and to question his ability, especially in a season where he was hurt , is rather silly. While he may have had a slight "down year", his numbers still hold up to what he put up in his last 3 seasons with New York . He gives you a lot more than just points as well, he's been a captain virtually everywhere he's been, including the Leafs, while Panarin doesn't even wear an A. Who would you genuinely rather have leading your team?

Panarin had 95 points in 69 games, now actually compare that to past seasons and you can clearly tell this is an exception not the rule,especially seeing as he's already turning 29 soon. It's amusing you don't compare their goal totals where Tavares was consistently on the doorstop of 40 goals while Panarin was at 30.1 season magic can happen, unless you truly believe Zibanejad is a bonafide 40+ goal scorer, despite never coming even remotely close before? Would you want him over Marner? I highly doubt it, and that's why its ridiculous to make comparisons like that. Marner was hurt this season and still put up 67 points in 59 games , which is on pace for over 90 points which hes already done before Panarin. Matthews had 80 points in 70 games, which was also on pace for over 90 points and he was top 10 last season. It's one season which mind you was cut short, acting like this was constantly going on, while the Leafs players were making 11 million and barely scraping past 50 points is rather ridiculous. Calm down a bit, its not as bad as it is in your mind.
 
KuleminFan41 said:
No. Because you cannot compare contracts one player signed in 2018, to one signed in 2015 or 2016 or before. Things change, cap goes up and most importantly, on that top 10 list, only 3 of those players didn't sign their contracts with the team that drafted them to get that contract to begin with. UFA drives up the price of a contract, we all know that but John Tavares has been a steady performer throughout his entire career, and to question his ability, especially in a season where he was hurt , is rather silly. While he may have had a slight "down year", his numbers still hold up to what he put up in his last 3 seasons with New York . He gives you a lot more than just points as well, he's been a captain virtually everywhere he's been, including the Leafs, while Panarin doesn't even wear an A. Who would you genuinely rather have leading your team?

Panarin had 95 points in 69 games, now actually compare that to past seasons and you can clearly tell this is an exception not the rule,especially seeing as he's already turning 29 soon. It's amusing you don't compare their goal totals where Tavares was consistently on the doorstop of 40 goals while Panarin was at 30.1 season magic can happen, unless you truly believe Zibanejad is a bonafide 40+ goal scorer, despite never coming even remotely close before? Would you want him over Marner? I highly doubt it, and that's why its ridiculous to make comparisons like that. Marner was hurt this season and still put up 67 points in 59 games , which is on pace for over 90 points which hes already done before Panarin. Matthews had 80 points in 70 games, which was also on pace for over 90 points and he was top 10 last season. It's one season which mind you was cut short, acting like this was constantly going on, while the Leafs players were making 11 million and barely scraping past 50 points is rather ridiculous. Calm down a bit, its not as bad as it is in your mind.
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Johnny Teflon was brought in to put us over the top , the facts are we're no better with and him and his old team is much better without him . 11M should buy you a player that can control the flow of the game and not just vulture around the net because he's too slow to be able to do anything else .

JT has never won anywhere , not in jr and not in the NHL yet it's never his fault and always his teammates fault for letting poor Johnny down .
 
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hotpaws said:
Johnny Teflon was brought in to put us over the top , the facts are we're no better with and him and his old team is much better without him . 11M should buy you a player that can control the flow of the game and not just vulture around the net because he's too slow to be able to do anything else .

JT has never won anywhere , not in jr and not in the NHL yet it's never his fault and always his teammates fault for letting poor Johnny down .
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If people thought he'd put us over the top, with our defence and coach at the time, I think people were expecting a bit too much too soon. I do understand why people would, but I mean come on, a defence consisting of Marincin, Gardiner, Hainsey, and Zaitsev isn't going to win any cups. It's a well known fact that Tavares makes players around him better, you can go look at any article discussing this during his time at New York, and trying to downplay the mans ability because the Leafs haven't won a cup in 2 seasons, is a bit harsh. He made guys like Parenteau , Okposo , and Moulsen to name a few have career years playing on his line. You can't simply ignore that

Tavares has won, 2 Gold medals at the world juniors, 1 olympic gold , and a world cup of hockey.
 
KuleminFan41 said:
If people thought he'd put us over the top, with our defence and coach at the time, I think people were expecting a bit too much too soon. I do understand why people would, but I mean come on, a defence consisting of Marincin, Gardiner, Hainsey, and Zaitsev isn't going to win any cups. It's a well known fact that Tavares makes players around him better, you can go look at any article discussing this during his time at New York, and trying to downplay the mans ability because the Leafs haven't won a cup in 2 seasons, is a bit harsh. He made guys like Parenteau , Okposo , and Moulsen to name a few have career years playing on his line. You can't simply ignore that

Tavares has won, 2 Gold medals at the world juniors, 1 olympic gold , and a world cup of hockey.
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it also a well known fact which is ignored and never mentioned that when you play on a line with JT in NY your ice time/pp time/o zone starts go way up so yes JT helps his wingers stats but he's far from the only reason there points went up

JT won Gold on stacked team Canada's and his pro wins came when he was a depth winger , hell one of the wins came when he blew out his knee and barely played

also in 9 season on the Island the team made the playoffs just 3 times and won 1 round , in the two seasons since he left they've made the playoffs both years and have won 3 rounds and a play in rd yet there's still people crapping on the Islanders like they were the one's holding poor Johnny back and now it's our turn to make excuses for why our team hasn't been any better with him

also i really don't get why everybody gets thrown under the bus to defend JT , he's accomplished absolutely nothing yet the way people go on it's like he's a Messier type leader with a fist full of rings , it's very strange
 
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hotpaws said:
Johnny Teflon was brought in to put us over the top , the facts are we're no better with and him and his old team is much better without him . 11M should buy you a player that can control the flow of the game and not just vulture around the net because he's too slow to be able to do anything else .

JT has never won anywhere , not in jr and not in the NHL yet it's never his fault and always his teammates fault for letting poor Johnny down .
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Bring in an unrestricted free agent and you get an unrestricted free agent- getting older, slower, weaker and more injury prone.

Leafs Nation loves unrestricted free agents and eat all of that President's Choice Memories of When They Were Good, and then we bring them here, and they are not so good.

Everyone needs to remember: This is the Golden Age of Leafs Management -we have an analytics department - the point is to pay for what a player will be tomorrow for us, and with inflation in the cap, that contact is cheap for the last 2 years. And players on the upswing of their career are not going to be impacted by diminishing returns and it is a good investment.

Conversely, the Leafs Nation and proven disastrous way, is to pay a player to come here for cups hoisted elsewhere, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
 
hotpaws said:
it also a well known fact which is ignored and never mentioned that when you play on a line with JT in NY your ice time/pp time/o zone starts go way up so yes JT helps his wingers stats but he's far from the only reason there points went up

JT won Gold on stacked team Canada's and his pro wins came when he was a depth winger , hell one of the wins came when he blew out his knee and barely played

also in 9 season on the Island the team made the playoffs just 3 times and won 1 round , in the two seasons since he left they've made the playoffs both years and have won 3 rounds and a play in rd yet there's still people crapping on the Islanders like they were the one's holding poor Johnny back and now it's our turn to make excuses for why our team hasn't been any better with him

also i really don't get why everybody gets thrown under the bus to defend JT , he's accomplished absolutely nothing yet the way people go on it's like he's a Messier type leader with his fist full of rings , it's very strange
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Tavares debut season with the Leafs was one of the best for any Leafs centre in the history of the team.....

Blaming Tavares for thr fact that Isles were horribly managed and coached means you simply weren't paying much attention to that teamm during those years; they were one of the worst run teams in the NHL.

You're being absolutely ridiculous here
 
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Menzinger said:
Tavares debut season with the Leafs was one of the best for any Leafs centre in the history of the team.....

Blaming Tavares for thr fact that Isles were horribly managed and coached means you simply weren't paying much attention to that team during those years; they were one of the worst run teams in the NHL.

You're being absolutely ridiculous here
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most people believe we signed JT to help us win , obviously you don't since you believe his time here has been a success

and it's always funny how it's always everyone else who gets blamed when JT's team never amounts to crap . it's truly astounding how many people feel compelled to crap on everybody to deflect any criticism away from JT

case in point is how for 9 f***ing years on the Island all you heard was how poor JT had to lug a pitiful group of AHL'ers on back every year but now that they've had some success without their savoir people are spinning themselves stupid to try to make excuses why they could possibly win without Johnny Teflon
 
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hotpaws said:
most people believe we signed JT to help us win , obviously you don't since you believe his time here has been a success

and it's always funny how it's always everyone else who gets blamed when JT's team never amounts to crap . it's truly astounding how many people feel compelled to crap on everybody to deflect any criticism away from JT

case in point is how for 9 f***ing years on the Island all you heard was how poor JT had to lug a pitiful group of AHL'ers on back every year but now that they've had some success without their savoir people are spinning themselves stupid to try to make excuses why they could possibly win without Johnny Teflon
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Pointing out you're making a nonsensical argument isn't "deflecting". A single great player can't carry a terrible team (see McDavid in Edmonton): critiquing Tavares for the Islanders lack of success isn't grounded in the slightest bit of reality or grasp of how that team was constructed.

Tavares is a 7 year investment for the Leafs. It's far from over yet.
 
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Menzinger said:
Pointing out you're making a nonsensical argument isn't "deflecting". A single great player can't carry a terrible team (see McDavid in Edmonton): critiquing Tavares for the Islanders lack of success isn't grounded in the slightest bit of reality or grasp of how that team was constructed.

Tavares is a 7 year investment for the Leafs. It's far from over yet.
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and yet that exact same terrible team has had quite a bit of success after there superstar bolted , funny how you keep missing this point

yup can't wait for the last 3 years of this investment and what bs you'll be spinning at that time
 
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All these signings of Spezza, Thornton, Simmonds tell me something about his leadership, and it isn't good.
 
hotpaws said:
and yet that exact same terrible team has had quite a bit of success after there superstar bolted , funny how you keep missing this point

yup can't wait for the last 3 years of this investment and what bs you'll be spinning at that time
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There’s more to the Islanders newfound success than simply Tavares leaving. Yo know this. There’s also bigger reasons for the Leafs failures than anything Tavares has done.
 
Jimmy Firecracker said:
There’s more to the Islanders newfound success than simply Tavares leaving. Yo know this. There’s also bigger reasons for the Leafs failures than anything Tavares has done.
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yup poor Johnny , all he wants is to get all the glory for any success and none of the blame for any of the failure

and i'm pretty sure his teammates on the Island are thrilled he left so they don't have to listen anymore how they were all garbage and holding poor Johnny down like they did for the 9 years he was here
 
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