Pro Tank Thread "You said that we'd be better now, better now. But you always let us down."

[LeftCoast]

Why are you here, are you even a Canucks fan?

You forgot - Y2K's brilliant plan for a rebuild: Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose ... STANLEY CUP!!!

 

[tyhee]

...

You also have to remember the Canucks were very competitive for most of 2016. My memory is starting to fade a bit, but I seem to recall them being in or near playoff contention around the 2016 deadline.

The Canucks absolutely free falled when they lost Sutter and (Edler was it?) to injuries at the start of March.
...

You are right that the Canucks went into freefall in March, but they had been outside playoff position since the middle of November and at no time after did they look like they'd seriously challenge.

December, 2015	Games	Points	Pt %
1	Dallas	39	59	.756
2	LA	37	50	.676
3	Min	36	46	.639
4	Nash	38	43	.566
5	St L	40	50	.625
6	Chi	39	48	.615
7	SJ	36	38	.528
8	Az	37	39	.527
9	Col	38	39	.513
10	Ana	36	36	.500
11	Van	38	37	.487
T12	Calg	37	36	.486
T12	Wpg	37	36	.486
14	Edm	39	33	.423

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

While the Canucks were clearly outside the playoffs at the end of December, they weren’t far enough out to have lost hope. They weren’t looking good by then so there were already arguments that the team should be trading players and arguments in favour of trading Vrbata had been going since preseason.

January	Team	Games	Points	Pt %
1	Dal	50	67	.670
2	Chi	53	70	.660
3	LA	49	63	.643
4	St L	52	64	.615
5	Ana	47	55	.585
6	SJ	48	56	.583
7	Min	49	55	.561
8	Nash	50	56	.560
9	Col	52	57	.548
10	Az	49	53	.541
11	Van	50	51	.510
12	Wpg	49	47	.480
13	Calg	48	45	.469
14	Edm	50	43	.430

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

By the end of January, the Canucks had remained in 11th place in the west, surged slightly to their best pts % for some time, but were further out of the playoff picture and frankly not looking like a playoff team. Still, they were only 5 pts out of playoff position and it would have been hard for Benning to give up at this stage.

After the games of February 28 (with the trade deadline being February 29) we had:

February 28/16	Team	Games	Points	Pt %
1	Dal	63	82	.651
2	Chi	64	83	.648
3	LA	62	78	.629
4	St L	65	81	.623
5	Ana	61	76	.623
6	SJ	61	72	.590
7	Nash	63	73	.579
8	Col	64	68	.531
9	Min	63	66	.524
10	Az	62	60	.484
T11/13	Calg	61	56	.459
T11/13	Wpg	61	56	.459
T11/13	Van	61	56	.459
14	Edm	64	53	.414

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

By the day before the trade deadline the Canucks had fallen 12 points (6 wins) out of a playoff spot. Pretty clearly they’d been out of contention for at least 6 games and realistically they’d been out of contention since Feb 6, when they lost to Calgary for their fourth loss in a row.

Certainly there should have been nobody, anywhere, who still considered the Canucks had any chance when they announced on Feb. 12, 2016 that Alex Edler was out for 6 weeks and Brandon Sutter for 6-8 weeks. At that time they were already 8 points behind 8th place Colorado (and Colorado made it 10 pts by winning that night.)
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So realistically there should have been no doubt for three weeks before the trade deadline and none at all for over two weeks before the deadline. So the Canucks by the deadline were looking at:

-a team that had finished out of the playoffs 2 of the last three seasons and hadn't won a playoff series in almost five seasons
-a team that was already 12 points out of playoff position, tied for 2nd last in the Western Conference and which would eventually go on to finish the season tied for the 2nd worst record in the league

Yet on Feb. 11, 2016 Jim Benning was talking about adding players for a playoff push. (Sighs, Damned Lies, and Season Tickets)

He didn't manage to move Hamhuis or Vrbata and in the offseason didn't look at the team and decide they needed to start a rebuild but instead pursued Milan Lucic in free agency and when Lucic picked the Oilers, signed about to turn 31 years of age Loui Eriksson to a monstrous 6 year contract, after having traded McCann, a high 2nd round pick and a 4th round pick for Erik Gudbranson and a 5th rounder.

While realistically management should have started to rebuild immediately on being hired, once they decided not to embark on it immediately it made sense to follow through until mid-February of 2016. To wait longer seems to me impossible to comprehend.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

You forgot - Y2K's brilliant plan for a rebuild: Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose ... STANLEY CUP!!!

Actuall the plan is to cheer for losses until we get rid of the incompetent management that makes building a good team impossible, then start cheering for wins again when that limiting factor is no longer here and the team can actually be rebuilt into a contender.

Maybe we should post that in the OP of every tank thread. We keep having to explain it over and over again....

 

[y2kcanucks]

You forgot - Y2K's brilliant plan for a rebuild: Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose, Lose ... STANLEY CUP!!!

Ahh so let's just go with your plan: mediocre, mediocre, mediocre, keep Benning and Weisbrod in the front office, more mediocrity, more mediocrity, bad trade, bad signing, mediocre, mediocre......mediocre?

 

[y2kcanucks]

Actuall the plan is to cheer for losses until we get rid of the incompetent management that makes building a good team impossible, then start cheering for wins again when that limiting factor is no longer here and the team can actually be rebuilt into a contender.

Maybe we should post that in the OP of every tank thread. We keep having to explain it over and over again....

Some people just don't get that simple concept. Either they're so delusional that they think the team can turn things around under Benning, or that Beagle is going to get everyone else a Stanley Cup ring, or perhaps they think that Benning will get fired if the team starts winning hockey games.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Why are you here, are you even a Canucks fan?

Why are you posting in a pro-tank thread if you don't want the team to tank? Do you not understand what a pro-tank thread is? Do you need help with the definition?

 

[Curmudgeon]

Why are you posting in a pro-tank thread if you don't want the team to tank? Do you not understand what a pro-tank thread is? Do you need help with the definition?

Understanding losing is a means to an end is one thing, whether you call it tanking or rebuilding, but relishing your team's defense getting ventilated or getting embarrassed and wishing for it to be replicated on an ongoing basis takes it to a stupid level. I can accept losing while young players are successfully developed and integrated into the team as part of the deal and would consider that "tanking".

Do you truly want a rebuild or would you prefer just establishing a losing culture you can't shake? Your tone is consistently indicative of the latter.

 

[LeftCoast]

Ahh so let's just go with your plan: mediocre, mediocre, mediocre, keep Benning and Weisbrod in the front office, more mediocrity, more mediocrity, bad trade, bad signing, mediocre, mediocre......mediocre?

I'm no fan of Benning and certainly not of Weisbrod. I just think that at some point you need to walk before you run. We have finished in the bottom 6 in the league 4 of the last 5 years - that's hardly mediocre. If your rebuild extends beyond 4 or 5 years, you end up burning through the entry level contracts of your earlier high draft picks - and if they are good - end up in a cap pinch before your later picks hit stride.

Additionally, the new lottery format has pretty much taken the benefit out of tanking. Even with a bottom 3 finish you have as good or better a chance of drafting at #5 or #6 than in the top 3. Come to accept it - no matter how the team finishes this season we will NOT win the lottery or have a chance to pick Jack Hughes.

I don't like Benning - but I'll give him credit for amateur scouting and draft that has been better than average and way better than any of the previous GMs, but the professional scouting has beeh poor and the retirement contracts to mediocre "lunch bucket" role players have been brutal. His best trades (probably Baertschi, Goldobin, Dahlen and Granlund) have been swamped by many many more horrible trades and the way tradeable assets like Vrbata, Hamhuis, Vanek - and now Hutton have been managed is almost criminal. So no - I'm not a Benning fan. But I'm a Canucks fan, and I would rather see the team succeed than Benning fail. I'm too old to wait for the next era.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Understanding losing is a means to an end is one thing, whether you call it tanking or rebuilding, but relishing your team's defense getting ventilated or getting embarrassed and wishing for it to be replicated on an ongoing basis takes it to a stupid level. I can accept losing while young players are successfully developed and integrated into the team as part of the deal and would consider that "tanking".

Do you truly want a rebuild or would you prefer just establishing a losing culture you can't shake? Your tone is consistently indicative of the latter.

And why do you think a losing culture won't take root just from the team being bad without tanking?

 

[CanaFan]

Actuall the plan is to cheer for losses until we get rid of the incompetent management that makes building a good team impossible, then start cheering for wins again when that limiting factor is no longer here and the team can actually be rebuilt into a contender.

Maybe we should post that in the OP of every tank thread. We keep having to explain it over and over again....

Not to mention that the guy currently tied for 1st in NHL scoring came as a result of the 2017 tank.

You’re welcome ya bunch of ingrates.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Understanding losing is a means to an end is one thing, whether you call it tanking or rebuilding, but relishing your team's defense getting ventilated or getting embarrassed and wishing for it to be replicated on an ongoing basis takes it to a stupid level. I can accept losing while young players are successfully developed and integrated into the team as part of the deal and would consider that "tanking".

Do you truly want a rebuild or would you prefer just establishing a losing culture you can't shake? Your tone is consistently indicative of the latter.

And that's where you're wrong. First of all, what the Canucks are doing is not rebuilding. There's a difference between rebuilding and a bad team. Many similarities, but they're two different concepts. Secondly, this is the same defense as last year. This is Jim Benning's team. Jim Benning's defense. And I am greatly enjoying seeing Jim Benning's team get shit kicked game after game. I hope to see this team victimized game after game. I want to see the worst regular season of any team in NHL history.

I truly want a rebuild, which is why I can't support the garbage that management has fed us. They've tried for the playoffs year after year and failed miserably, building the worst team in the NHL over the last 3 year period. Yet Benning still got an extension. If that isn't a losing culture I don't know what is.

 

[Carl Carlson]

Fair enough but you ever hear the quote "win with humility, lose with grace"? Nothing graceful about relishing the fact your so-called home team's defense is getting ventilated.

It may not be graceful, but as a fan of the team, I'll boo them relentlessly if they suck. Watching the D that our current management did absolutely nothing to address over the summer get ventilated is great. I want the entire management team fired. They messed up. Not addressing the horrid D is just one, one of many many issues that I and I'm sure many fellow fans can't stand about this management team. I want complete change and this is one way to get it. Our D is not NHL good, its AHL good.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I'm no fan of Benning and certainly not of Weisbrod. I just think that at some point you need to walk before you run. We have finished in the bottom 6 in the league 4 of the last 5 years - that's hardly mediocre. If your rebuild extends beyond 4 or 5 years, you end up burning through the entry level contracts of your earlier high draft picks - and if they are good - end up in a cap pinch before your later picks hit stride.

Additionally, the new lottery format has pretty much taken the benefit out of tanking. Even with a bottom 3 finish you have as good or better a chance of drafting at #5 or #6 than in the top 3. Come to accept it - no matter how the team finishes this season we will NOT win the lottery or have a chance to pick Jack Hughes.

I don't like Benning - but I'll give him credit for amateur scouting and draft that has been better than average and way better than any of the previous GMs, but the professional scouting has beeh poor and the retirement contracts to mediocre "lunch bucket" role players have been brutal. His best trades (probably Baertschi, Goldobin, Dahlen and Granlund) have been swamped by many many more horrible trades and the way tradeable assets like Vrbata, Hamhuis, Vanek - and now Hutton have been managed is almost criminal. So no - I'm not a Benning fan. But I'm a Canucks fan, and I would rather see the team succeed than Benning fail. I'm too old to wait for the next era.

Except this isn't a rebuild, it's a bad hockey team. And it's going to extend even longer because they aren't rebuilding. Jim Benning has built bad team after bad team, for years trying to push for the playoffs. It's that level of incompetence that has brought the team to where it's at. And yet he still got an extension. So, until he's gone I hope the team gets shit kicked game after game.

Benning gets no credit for amateur scouting and the draft. I wouldn't say it's been better than average at all considering the team's draft position. We have the prospect pool that's about what you would expect given where the team has picked. Blowing the 6th pick in 2014 and the 5th pick in 2016 really hurt. He's made some great picks as well. They even out to merely average IMO. His job performance in every other aspect has been abysmal. And if you're listing Granlund on his list of good trades, even Goldobin, that should tell you all you need to know about how awful his job performance has been.

I'm a Canucks fan, and I want to see the Canucks win the Stanley Cup. For that they need new management, and in order to get new management this thing has to get ugly. I'm not one who believes in unicorns. This thing isn't going to magically change and get better. I live in the real world. Come join me sometime.

 

[Curmudgeon]

And why do you think a losing culture won't take root just from the team being bad without tanking?

I'm not saying it won't but seemingly wanting it to is another thing.

And that's where you're wrong. First of all, what the Canucks are doing is not rebuilding. There's a difference between rebuilding and a bad team. Many similarities, but they're two different concepts. Secondly, this is the same defense as last year. This is Jim Benning's team. Jim Benning's defense. And I am greatly enjoying seeing Jim Benning's team get **** kicked game after game. I hope to see this team victimized game after game. I want to see the worst regular season of any team in NHL history.

I truly want a rebuild, which is why I can't support the garbage that management has fed us. They've tried for the playoffs year after year and failed miserably, building the worst team in the NHL over the last 3 year period. Yet Benning still got an extension. If that isn't a losing culture I don't know what is.

I get it, negativity is clearly your schtick. You've noticeably refrained from acknowledging any positives resulting from the Pettersson arrival and initial impact as one example, most of your posts are management related and you're not entirely wrong on those as I have posted similarly myself, but you have minimal if any balance to your posting history, it's almost all toxic, and as a result, you pretty much put out a vibe that you're not even a Canucks fan.

Yes, it's in their best interest to lose and get the highest pick they can but it can't occur without progression in at least some areas and as fans we should at least have something positive to cheer for and gain optimism from.

[mod]

 

[MadaCanuckle]

I'm not saying it won't but seemingly wanting it to is another thing.



I get it, negativity is clearly your schtick. You've noticeably refrained from acknowledging any positives resulting from the Pettersson arrival and initial impact as one example, most of your posts are management related and you're not entirely wrong on those as I have posted similarly myself, but you have minimal if any balance to your posting history, it's almost all toxic, and as a result, you pretty much put out a vibe that you're not even a Canucks fan.

Yes, it's in their best interest to lose and get the highest pick they can but it can't occur without progression in at least some areas and as fans we should at least have something positive to cheer for and gain optimism from.

[mod]

The positives will be trumped by the fact that we don't have any direction with this management team. He can be negative just because he saw a lot sooner than most of us that Benning and co. are one of the worst in the NHL.

Funnt stuff, people still want progression when "all those progression moves" only get us even far behind. You can cheer for all you want (as I did yesterday when Pettersson scored) but people really need to think about the big picture. And aside of Pettersson and Boeser, this management team didn't bring anything relevant of good, with a lot of very bad moves.

 

[Curmudgeon]

It may not be graceful, but as a fan of the team, I'll boo them relentlessly if they suck. Watching the D that our current management did absolutely nothing to address over the summer get ventilated is great. I want the entire management team fired. They messed up. Not addressing the horrid D is just one, one of many many issues that I and I'm sure many fellow fans can't stand about this management team. I want complete change and this is one way to get it. Our D is not NHL good, its AHL good.

That's fine, I boo them too and I've been critical of ownership and management moves as well.

As far as the defense goes, I had asked other posters previously about the defensemen that moved over the summer and which ones they would have targeted and what price would they have paid to outbid the teams that acquired them in order to upgrade what the Canucks have but never saw a response. People point out the obvious, and I'm not happy about it either, but they offer nothing up.

So which defenseman that moved over summer would you have outbid the other team for and with what?

 

[NoShowWilly]

Our October - December schedule seems pretty packed. We got our multiday breaks scheduled right away. Play for the most part every other day. 4 back to backs.

3 games

2 day break

10 games

3 day break

11 games

2 day break

3 games

2 day break

2 games

2 day break

7 games

Christmas.

5 multiday breaks until Christmas. Only one more than 2 days. Lots of hockey.

Contrast that with January when we only play 9 games, 6 after the 5th all at home.

Look at other Pacific teams and only Las Vegas plays 37 as well but over two extra days.

 

[Curmudgeon]

The positives will be trumped by the fact that we don't have any direction with this management team. He can be negative just because he saw a lot sooner than most of us that Benning and co. are one of the worst in the NHL.

Funnt stuff, people still want progression when "all those progression moves" only get us even far behind. You can cheer for all you want (as I did yesterday when Pettersson scored) but people really need to think about the big picture. And aside of Pettersson and Boeser, this management team didn't bring anything relevant of good, with a lot of very bad moves.

Progression is young players being successfully developed and integrated into the team. Do you really think a team can finish near the bottom of the league for several years and accumulate a stable of good young players without them getting better as a team as they add those players into the mix? You're saying outside of Pettersson and Boeser, every other player they've drafted and brought in is of little or no value? That's outlandish.

 

[CanaFan]

Progression is young players being successfully developed and integrated into the team. Do you really think a team can finish near the bottom of the league for several years and accumulate a stable of good young players without them getting better as a team as they add those players into the mix? You're saying outside of Pettersson and Boeser, every other player they've drafted and brought in is of little or no value? That's outlandish.

Which ones would you say are of significant value?

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I'm not saying it won't but seemingly wanting it to is another thing.



I get it, negativity is clearly your schtick. You've noticeably refrained from acknowledging any positives resulting from the Pettersson arrival and initial impact as one example, most of your posts are management related and you're not entirely wrong on those as I have posted similarly myself, but you have minimal if any balance to your posting history, it's almost all toxic, and as a result, you pretty much put out a vibe that you're not even a Canucks fan.

Yes, it's in their best interest to lose and get the highest pick they can but it can't occur without progression in at least some areas and as fans we should at least have something positive to cheer for and gain optimism from.

[mod]

People aren't just going to become optimistic about Jim Benning being able to build a playoff team when he has shown he can't.

 

[desiboyyessir]

People aren't just going to become optimistic about Jim Benning being able to build a playoff team when he has shown he can't.

he cannot even build a decent 6 man unit on defense lol

 

[Seattle Totems]

Fair enough but you ever hear the quote "win with humility, lose with grace"? Nothing graceful about relishing the fact your so-called home team's defense is getting ventilated.

I don't really look at this as my defense. I feel like the Canucks are being held hostage by a couple of stooges in management and Im waiting for a competent group to come in and clean house. There are at least a couple of Benning acquisitions that I can not cheer for and want off the team.

 

[Canucker]

People aren't just going to become optimistic about Jim Benning being able to build a playoff team when he has shown he can't.

I'll bet he can build a playoff team, but that is the extent of his vision...he will build a team that will squeak into the playoffs with the hopes of catching lightning in a bottle to win a round. This is NOT a soundly built team, nor does it have the prospects to make it one...the playoffs are the ceiling for this team.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Which ones would you say are of significant value?

I guess it depends if you see a guy like Baertschi as a top 6 forward, whether you think prospects like Hughes, Dahlen, Gaudette, Juolevi, Lind, or Woo have significant futures with the team or whether Goldobin and Virtanen continue to progress and Tryamkin comes back. There's a big difference between significance and "this management team didn't bring anything relevant of good". Those are the moves that help teams gradually get better and I can be optimistic about and cheer for along the way.

And that's not at all to dismiss the fact they've crapped the bed with a whole host of other moves as I've posted previously across the board.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I don't really look at this as my defense. I feel like the Canucks are being held hostage by a couple of stooges in management and Im waiting for a competent group to come in and clean house. There are at least a couple of Benning acquisitions that I can not cheer for and want off the team.

That's fine, I've stated before I thought he should be fired but it's bigger than that, ownership is a problem too. I agree on some of the acquisitions, Gagner for sure was one of those.