Pro Tank Thread "You said that we'd be better now, better now. But you always let us down."

[Horse McHindu]

Actually it does work like that. The Leafs initial rebuild was around Kessel and Phaneuf, and was more of a retool than a rebuild. They were awful. Then Shanahan came in and decided to blow it up. That was the successful rebuild.

But you can keep piping that stat about them having not won a playoff series since 2002 as if it means anything.

So let me get this straight. An organization continuously misses the playoffs since 2002.....tries to compete for a cup for the next 6 years and doesn’t even make the playoffs.....attempt a retool post-Sundin era for another 6-7 years......make the playoffs only ONCE during those 6-7 years, and then along comes a new GM who throws a “Hail Mary” strategy and gets unbelievably lucky with both the lottery odds and who he selects (borderline generational talent), and this is the ultimate sign of a successful rebuild? Really?

Even if Shanahan did blow up the Kessel-Phaneuf core, his model is not duplicable and requires a lot of luck (ie winning the lottery and drafting a borderline generational talent). More times than not, GM’s attempting Shanahans rebuild will end up in far worse positions. Hence - the “Hail Mary” analogy is applicable here.

On top of that - Shanahan didn’t completely build this new core by himself. He inherited guys like Morgan Reilly, Jake Gardiner, Bozak, JVR, etc. from previous GM’s.

 

[Horse McHindu]

What signaled that the Canucks had started rebuilding in 2014?

The Luongo deal.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

The Leafs rebuild did not start in 2015, lmao.

You do realize that they haven’t won a playoff round since 2002 right?

The Leafs started rebuilding slightly at or before Sundin left them......to you know....play with us? 9.5 years ago?

There is a difference between a rebuilding team and a bad team.

 

[valkynax]

So let me get this straight. An organization continuously misses the playoffs since 2002.....tries to compete for a cup for the next 6 years and doesn’t even make the playoffs.....attempt a retool post-Sundin era for another 6-7 years......make the playoffs only ONCE during those 6-7 years, and then along comes a new GM who throws a “Hail Mary” strategy and gets unbelievably lucky with both the lottery odds and who he selects (borderline generational talent), and this is the ultimate sign of a successful rebuild? Really?

Even if Shanahan did blow up the Kessel-Phaneuf core, his model is not duplicable and requires a lot of luck (ie winning the lottery and drafting a borderline generational talent). More times than not, GM’s attempting Shanahans rebuild will end up in far worse positions. Hence - the “Hail Mary” analogy is applicable here.

On top of that - Shanahan didn’t completely build this new core by himself. He inherited guys like Morgan Reilly, Jake Gardiner, Bozak, JVR, etc. from previous GM’s.

Again, find me some sources to backup your claims.

Better yet, would you have the audacity to go to the Leafs board and make a post asking for validation of what you're saying?

My stance, along with many others, is that Leafs most recent attempt to rebuild started in 2015.

You say Leafs started their rebuild back in 2002.

Care to make a post there and see which of the two of us will get chewed up like cheap bubble gum?

 

[CanaFan]

The Luongo deal.

Ya? Finally trading the guy that they had been trying to move since 2012 is what signaled it for ya? The deal that brought back a pile of youth and prospects like 24 year old Jacob Markstrom and 26 year old Shawn Matthias?

*That* is what signaled the rebuild starting for you?

Jeez man, I would have taken the easy choice and just gone with when they traded their #1 goalie for the 9th pick in the draft a year earlier. But the Luongo deal? That is a puzzling one.

 

[y2kcanucks]

So let me get this straight. An organization continuously misses the playoffs since 2002.....tries to compete for a cup for the next 6 years and doesn’t even make the playoffs.....attempt a retool post-Sundin era for another 6-7 years......make the playoffs only ONCE during those 6-7 years, and then along comes a new GM who throws a “Hail Mary” strategy and gets unbelievably lucky with both the lottery odds and who he selects (borderline generational talent), and this is the ultimate sign of a successful rebuild? Really?

Even if Shanahan did blow up the Kessel-Phaneuf core, his model is not duplicable and requires a lot of luck (ie winning the lottery and drafting a borderline generational talent). More times than not, GM’s attempting Shanahans rebuild will end up in far worse positions. Hence - the “Hail Mary” analogy is applicable here.

On top of that - Shanahan didn’t completely build this new core by himself. He inherited guys like Morgan Reilly, Jake Gardiner, Bozak, JVR, etc. from previous GM’s.

You can duplicate the process. Shanahan's teams avoided long-term contracts. They signed one-year deals and then flipped those assets for draft picks. They stockpiled a lot of draft picks. Pretty much the exact opposite approach as the Canucks. They focused on building a young core and made that the focal point of their team, again, opposite of what Benning is doing.

 

[racerjoe]

I want the Hughes brothers so bad. Vancouver needs brothers to lead this team otherwise why do we exist.

What about if we just traded for Emil? That way they could still be Swedish Brothers... and maybe play on the same line together.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The Luongo deal.

So according to you, the rebuilding Canucks decided to go out and spend money on Ryan Miller, Radim Vrbata, and then lock up Loui Eriksson to that long-term contract? Is that consistent with how teams rebuild? And that's not even looking at all the draft picks Benning has traded away.

 

[PG Canuck]

What about if we just traded for Emil? That way they could still be Swedish Brothers... and maybe play on the same line together.

Lets get them all. We have 1 Pettersson and 1 Hughes, lets just finish the deed.

 

[Horse McHindu]

So according to you, the rebuilding Canucks decided to go out and spend money on Ryan Miller, Radim Vrbata, and then lock up Loui Eriksson to that long-term contract? Is that consistent with how teams rebuild? And that's not even looking at all the draft picks Benning has traded away.

Here’s the thing: As long as those signings didn’t prevent any kids from playing in positions that they were ready for, then yes, those signings were ok and consistent with a rebuild.

Not even ONE of our signings in all of Benning’s time here has prevented a kid from playing in a position that he was ready for. Not ONE.


Thanks to Mike Gillis completely and utterly depleting our farm, the Canucks literally had zero prospects ready to make the jump and fill those positions.

When Shanahan took over in Toronto, this wasn’t the case: Yes - Shanahan got lucky and drafted Marner, Matthews, and Nylander, but the Leafs also had some other decent young players within the system thanks to their numerous previous years of COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILURE.

The ONLY guy that was ready to make the jump at that time was Sven Baertschi......and so Chris Higgins was sent down as result.

As time has also proven, Eddie Lack was NOT quite ready to be a number one goalie and so Miller’s presence was necessary.

Bringing in vets to teach the kids the right on ice and off ice habits is also an essential component to a rebuild. Bringing in vets (without sacrificing 1st round picks) so that a team can push for the playoffs is also important, so that the kids get much needed playoff exposure. Now obviously, the latter has not panned out, but this management group and veteran leadership has done an excellent job of getting the kids to compete even when they were long eliminated from playoffs. This type of mindset WILL pay in the long run.

As far as “all of the draft picks” that Benning has traded away, look no further than the quality of our farm and prospect pool to see if that had any negative impact.

1) Our farm is deeper than its ever been (prospects selected from ALL rounds),

2) we have lots of young guys on the Canucks

3) the Canucks are playing a modern and exciting style of hockey.

4) Our long term depth at Center seems to be solved, while our goaltending long term also doesnt seem like it will be an issue (one of Demko or Dipietro should pan out, while Markstrom is also still young enough to be a viable long term option for us. Markstrom looks like he might have taken a leap in his game). With Hughes, Juolevi, and Tryamkin likely to make/comeback to the Canucks within the next 1-2 years, our defense also appears likely to be set. Hughes being a top pairing PMD, Juolevi being a 2nd pairing PMD, and Tryamkin being a 2nd pairing stay-at-home, are all very realistic and attainable projections.

Finally - just take a look at who scored our goals the other night.

Pettersson, Virtanen, Goldobin, Leipsic, Motte.

Amazing how we criticize Benning for trading for reclamation projects, and yet we have five young guys (Baertschi, Granlund, Goldobin, Leipsic, and Motte) all in our line-up who appear to be poised and ready to succeed in their positions.

Is any of this sinking in?

 

[Chairman Maouth]

No politics.

 

[Peter10]

Here’s the thing: As long as those signings didn’t prevent any kids from playing in positions that they were ready for, then yes, those signings were ok and consistent with a rebuild.

Lots of weird stuff..

Will be interesting how you spin all this in a couple of months when the Canucks are at the bottom of the league and the likes of Motte have faded out quickly and the Canucks play a boring trap game in order to stay in games.

On Wedenesday the Canucks played a good game against terrible Flames who looked completly out of sync. If it wasnt for Markstrom and that piss poor PP of the Flames, Vancover loses that game easily. Yet you hang your high hopes on this and think all your ridiculous predictions come true.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Will be interesting how you spin all this in a couple of months when the Canucks are at the bottom of the league and the likes of Motte have faded out quickly and the Canucks play a boring trap game in order to stay in games.

No need to wait for a couple months. If the Canucks are at the bottom of the standings in a few months, my mantra will be the same:

1) Keep fighting hard night in night out
2) Keep good on ice and off ice habits
3) let the chips fall where they may. If we’re destined to be a bottom feeder this year, we will likely get another Hughes/Pettersson type prospect.

On Wedenesday the Canucks played a good game against terrible Flames who looked completly out of sync. If it wasnt for Markstrom and that piss poor PP of the Flames, Vancover loses that game easily. Yet you hang your high hopes on this and think all your ridiculous predictions come true.

Coulda shoulda woulda. Listen - you, Flame fans, Leaf fans, and other Canuck haters can pray on the downfall of the Canucks all you want, but at the end of the day, our boys got the win. We had one power play opportunity and they had seven. Markstrom played tremendous and appears to have elevated his game. A great goalie *will* bail out his team in crucial moments. Despite the Flames having 7 PP’s, the Canucks were able to net 5 goals.

 

[Eddy Punch Clock]

No politics.

Talking politics on a Hockey message board makes baby Jesus cry.

 

[Horse McHindu]

There is a difference between a rebuilding team and a bad team.

Agreed. A team that hasn’t won a playoff round in over 15 years, and has been rebuilding since circa 2008, is a bad organization.

Are the Leafs promising now? (Finally). Of course they are. They have the tools now (after 15 years), and so let’s see what they do.

 

[CanaFan]

Agreed. A team that hasn’t won a playoff round in over 15 years, and has been rebuilding since circa 2008, is a bad organization.

Are the Leafs promising now? (Finally). Of course they are. They have the tools now (after 15 years), and so let’s see what they do.

What tools did they add 15 years ago?

The bulk of the Leafs core has been added since 2012. Being bad 15 years ago has no relevance to where they are today.

 

[Horse McHindu]

The bulk of the Leafs core has been added since 2012.

Fair enough.

Since Shanahan took over in 2014, can all of us atleast agree that Shanahan didn’t completely build the Leafs that we see today, and that, some young pieces on the Leafs that we see today were there BEFORE he came?

 

[CanaFan]

Fair enough.

Since Shanahan took over in 2014, can all of us atleast agree that Shanahan didn’t completely build the Leafs that we see today, and that, some young pieces on the Leafs that we see today were there BEFORE he came?

Sure, just as Horvat, Tanev, and a bunch of trade chips were here waiting for Benning. No GM builds a team completely by himself, but the TO rebuild moved into high gear after 2014.

 

[northwestern comfort]

Fair enough.

Since Shanahan took over in 2014, can all of us atleast agree that Shanahan didn’t completely build the Leafs that we see today, and that, some young pieces on the Leafs that we see today were there BEFORE he came?

Can you are anyone here name a GM that oversaw a complete overturn of players and prospects? Your definition of a rebuild is pretty strict.

 

[Peter10]

Sure, just as Horvat, Tanev, and a bunch of trade chips were here waiting for Benning. No GM builds a team completely by himself, but the TO rebuild moved into high gear after 2014.

McPhee

 

[Horse McHindu]

Ya? Finally trading the guy that they had been trying to move since 2012 is what signaled it for ya? The deal that brought back a pile of youth and prospects like 24 year old Jacob Markstrom and 26 year old Shawn Matthias?

When Luongo requested his original trade request, we still had Schneider (an in prime #1 goalie). When we moved Luongo in 2014, we no longer had Schneider and were now looking at building up Lack and Markstrom.

24 is considered young for a goalie. Goalies generally peak at a much later age than forwards and defensemen.

Jeez man, I would have taken the easy choice and just gone with when they traded their #1 goalie for the 9th pick in the draft a year earlier. But the Luongo deal? That is a puzzling one.

Again. The Canucks had two number one goalies at the time and so they were attempting to trade from a position of strength. Gillis finally realized as to how badly he screwed the pooch in terms of the farm, and so he was desperately trying to stock the cupboards.

Gillis ROYALLY screwed up the Luongo/Schneider situation. Luongo should have been moved after the 2011-2012 season ended, but Gillis’ asking price was stubborningly high.

Gillis also made a lot of other strange moves after the cup finals (Hodgson for Kassian). Instead of acquiring *win now* pieces during what was our window, Gillis was desperately trying to cover his butt after he realized just how anemic our farm was, and just how much damage he had caused to the future of this team.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

leafs failed their first rebuild when they thought phaneuf and kessel as the core will carry them forward.

they realized how awful the team is and decided "ok **** it" and traded away their core, hoarded up picks, and with careful planning and some luck, they achieved in 3 years what Dim Jim couldn't even pretend to dream to do in 5.

They haven’t achieved a GD thing except convince a bunch of gullible people to buy their snake oil. “Sleep doctors” 2.0

 

[Horse McHindu]

Can you are anyone here name a GM that oversaw a complete overturn of players and prospects? Your definition of a rebuild is pretty strict.

Fair enough point, but the truth of the matter is the Leafs *up until two years ago* were a running joke in Canada. To praise the Leafs and ignore their terrible track record since 2002 is absurd in my opinion.

MANY GM’s tried to fix Toronto through various strategies and they all failed. Shanahan comes in, throws a “Hail Mary” strategy, gets lucky with the lottery draft and some picks, and he’s heralded as a genius?

To quote Al Borlin from Home Improvement, “I don’t think so Tim.”

Leafs threw a “Hail Mary” strategy after years of abject failure, and they beat the odds. Their model for a rebuild isn’t duplicable however.....and requires some Lady Luck. Many teams have attempted what the Leafs did an either

A) Failed
B) Took longer than 7 years to rebuild

If I go to a casino and win $1,000,000, it doesn’t mean that gambling at a casino is a more effective long term financial strategy than saving money in an RRSP.

 

[Horse McHindu]

You can duplicate the process. Shanahan's teams avoided long-term contracts. They signed one-year deals and then flipped those assets for draft picks. They stockpiled a lot of draft picks.

So other than Matthews, Marner, and Nylander, which of these “stockpiled” picks have made the team or are on the verge of making the team?

Pretty much the exact opposite approach as the Canucks. They focused on building a young core and made that the focal point of their team, again, opposite of what Benning is doin.

If the Leafs didn’t get lucky with the lottery odds AND draft a borderline generational talent in Matthews, they wouldn’t be a playoff team. At best, they would be Calgary Flames EAST. Replace Matthews with Pierre Luc Dubois, and all of a sudden, Shanahan doesn’t look like a genius. #HailMary

 

[Peter10]

When you are a new GM and start your rebuild by signing an 34y old goalie to a 18m/3y deal and a 33y old winger for 10m /2y