Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
29,349
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Charlotte, NC
Its not just that NY has a lot of people, its that they have a lot of people that like hockey and pro sports in general. People who shill for Atlanta keep ignoring the impact of college sports on the pro teams. When you have SEC football and ACC basketball so strong in the region, that makes it harder for pro sports teams to gain a foothold, especially in a sport that's new.

Having lived in 3 cities with Pro Sports, I don't think the numbers by percentage in NY are any higher than they are in Charlotte or Nashville in terms of pro sports. I would say it's even lower in NY than Nashville when it comes to hockey specifically.
 

tucker3434

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maybe Alpharetta.. Forsythe county feels like a whole nother vibe/state than Buckhead.

Im going to buy season tickets and luckily im not chained to a desk 9-5 for my job , but if I was getting up there on a tuesday night for a 7:30 puck drop would be hard af

I’d have preferred the North Point Mall location, but even in South Forsyth, a Buckhead season ticket holder would have an easier time getting to the proposed location than an Alpharetta season ticket holder would have had getting to Philips for a Thrashers game. It’ll be net positive from the jump and only improve as the burbs creep farther and farther north.

All of the proposed locations are more convenient for me than Gas South, and I don’t think it’s awful to get there.
 

AintLifeGrand

Burnin Jet-A
Apr 8, 2009
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I’d have preferred the North Point Mall location, but even in South Forsyth, a Buckhead season ticket holder would have an easier time getting to the proposed location than an Alpharetta season ticket holder would have had getting to Philips for a Thrashers game. It’ll be net positive from the jump and only improve as the burbs creep farther and farther north.

All of the proposed locations are more convenient for me than Gas South, and I don’t think it’s awful to get there.
Not sure I agree, since you're going against traffic going from OTP into DT ...Buckhead folks will be battling rush hour traffic
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
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Attendance started dropping after year 1 before ASG came into the picture. The only time after year 1 that attendance was over 16K after the first year was under ASG ownership. Attendance still dropped the year after they made their one playoff run. While they didn't make the playoffs after that they weren't awful just mediocre

So this conspiracy theory that ASG was tanking for 7 straight years just doesn't hold water.

It's pretty much established fact that Atlanta Spirit wanted to sell the team the moment they bought it, because they simply didn't want it in their arena. It's also established fact that a rift developed between Steve Belkin (the owner based out of Boston) and the rest of the group that prevented any attempt to flip the team.

The remaining owners, having just spent to the cap in 2005 in an attempt to maximize potential sale revenue, tanked the team with poor signings and bad trades (Zhitnik for Coburn, anyone?) as the court battle between Atlanta Spirit and Belkin persisted. Those moves disheartened the diehard fans, and made it less appealing for folks to have a desire to sit in traffic for an hour or more to watch an intentionally created dumpster fire lose another game. Furthermore, it caused pessimism and uncertainty among the fans to develop. Many of us didn't want to admit it at the time, but the fear that the team would move once the case was settled did rest in the back of most people's minds as rumors continued to swirl about the team's future in the market.

I'm sure you'll point to the acquisition of Dustin Byfuglien and Andrew Ladd and say not all the trades were bad. And you'd be correct, until you consider that Belkin reached a settlement agreement with the remaining owners in December 2010. This is something that had been in the works for a while, but once the settlement was reached, there was nothing stopping Atlanta Spirit from selling the team.

The presence of young and highly touted players like Bogosian and Kane, as well as successful vets like Byfuglien and Ladd, allowed Atlanta Spirit to get as much as they did for the team without them spending to the cap. One might ask how an ownership group could be so derelict, could mismanage their assets in this way, and the very idea that it was by design all adds up to something that seems incredibly illogical. You'd be right. It is illogical. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But it happened. Much of the Atlanta Spirit and Ted Turner/AOL saga of Thrashers ownership was published in an article in The Athletic earlier this year.

Folks don't have to like the fact that the league considers the Atlanta market different now than it was 12 years ago, and that the league is open to the possibility of giving the market a third try. However, with all the new rules in place, with a more robust vetting of potential ownership (likely as a direct result to having dealt with Atlanta Spirit from 2004 until 2011), the team would almost assuredly find instant success. But that's a chapter that has yet to be written.

Hope this clears things up. Or, is my direct knowledge of the situation at the time also mere "conspiracy theory"?
 

TheLegend

"Just say it 3 times..."
Aug 30, 2009
38,804
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the ownership didn’t want to pay the billion dollar expansion fee . That’s the jist of it.
It was $500 million then…. And they didn’t have it. They were actively seeking partners in the middle of the application process and that doesn’t look good. The low Loonie to Dollar exchange ratio at the time didn’t help either.
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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Self sufficient= not taking money from other teams to cover their cash flow shortfalls. This isn't complicated, so don't try,

It's not complicated, but that's short-sighted and leads to a stagnated league with limited revenues and a niche status in the business world at best.

The problem is your line of "financial self-sufficiency" is a moving target: Payroll to be competitive.

Because the NHL's entire setup is based on league average, removing struggling teams KILLS THE LEAGUE. The worst team financially in the league is spending 68% of revenues if they want to hit the cap. But that's AFTER revenue sharing. So take away the RS and let's just cut anyone who needs 60% to hit the cap...

You eliminate 5 struggling teams that way. But now the cap goes up $6 million because the bottom revenue teams aren't lowering the average.

Three more teams can't keep up. Traditional fans love it, because you're down to 24 teams and those teams are absolute good NHL markets...

But the cap goes up again, and here comes the big cut because the smaller markets just can't keep up with the mega-markets and you lose places like WIN, EDM, CAL, OTT, STL, PIT, SJ, COL, MIN, etc.

If you keep going, you'd be left with TOR, MON, NYR and BOS in a four-team league that no one wants to put on TV because only about 30m of the 380m in our countries have teams.
 

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
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Its not just that NY has a lot of people, its that they have a lot of people that like hockey and pro sports in general. People who shill for Atlanta keep ignoring the impact of college sports on the pro teams. When you have SEC football and ACC basketball so strong in the region, that makes it harder for pro sports teams to gain a foothold, especially in a sport that's new.
But somehow Atlanta United came in and absolutely kicked ass, DESPITE said college sports. And thats MLS. So...what are we doing here? By your logic no professional sports teams should exist in ATL.
 
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BKIslandersFan

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Having lived in 3 cities with Pro Sports, I don't think the numbers by percentage in NY are any higher than they are in Charlotte or Nashville in terms of pro sports. I would say it's even lower in NY than Nashville when it comes to hockey specifically.
Probably right. I don't think @aqib has any idea just how not popular hockey is here.

Which is not to say people don't care about hockey, they do.
 
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Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
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Charlotte, NC
Probably right. I don't think @aqib has any idea just how not popular hockey is here.

Which is not to say people don't care about hockey, they do.

Generally speaking, sports fans underestimate the number of non-sports fans. The Super Bowl drew a bit over 100 million people, and that’s an event… practically a holiday in the US. Two thirds of the country didn’t watch it. The viewership numbers are less half that for conference championship games. 85% of the country didn’t watch.

I recognize that there are probably flaws in specific numbers there, but it illustrates the point. The number of people you need to be interested in a sport to make a team viable isn’t as big as people think it is. Why else would a place like QC even work? An NHL team in Atlanta could probably be solvent getting engagement with 5-10% of the population. We’re talking 300-600k people.
 

DuklaNation

Registered User
Aug 26, 2004
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It's not complicated, but that's short-sighted and leads to a stagnated league with limited revenues and a niche status in the business world at best.

The problem is your line of "financial self-sufficiency" is a moving target: Payroll to be competitive.

Because the NHL's entire setup is based on league average, removing struggling teams KILLS THE LEAGUE. The worst team financially in the league is spending 68% of revenues if they want to hit the cap. But that's AFTER revenue sharing. So take away the RS and let's just cut anyone who needs 60% to hit the cap...

You eliminate 5 struggling teams that way. But now the cap goes up $6 million because the bottom revenue teams aren't lowering the average.

Three more teams can't keep up. Traditional fans love it, because you're down to 24 teams and those teams are absolute good NHL markets...

But the cap goes up again, and here comes the big cut because the smaller markets just can't keep up with the mega-markets and you lose places like WIN, EDM, CAL, OTT, STL, PIT, SJ, COL, MIN, etc.

If you keep going, you'd be left with TOR, MON, NYR and BOS in a four-team league that no one wants to put on TV because only about 30m of the 380m in our countries have teams.
Keep repeating the same thing, that's shortsighted and leads to losses. Too many teams already don't generate enough revenue. Don't see adding a franchise in Georgia changing that. From a business standpoint, there has yet to be any argument presented here. Other fanbases are tired of subsidizing league experiments.
 
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awfulwaffle

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Jun 20, 2011
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Keep repeating the same thing, that's shortsighted and leads to losses. Too many teams already don't generate enough revenue. Don't see adding a franchise in Georgia changing that. From a business standpoint, there has yet to be any argument presented here. Other fanbases are tired of subsidizing league experiments.

Why do the fanbases care? It doesn't impact their wallet.
 

aqib

Registered User
Feb 13, 2012
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Probably right. I don't think @aqib has any idea just how not popular hockey is here.

Which is not to say people don't care about hockey, they do.
I literally grew up in NY

But somehow Atlanta United came in and absolutely kicked ass, DESPITE said college sports. And thats MLS. So...what are we doing here? By your logic no professional sports teams should exist in ATL.

More proof that its the sport of hockey is what people in Atlanta don't like ;)
 
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AtlantaWhaler

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Jul 3, 2009
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Keep repeating the same thing, that's shortsighted and leads to losses. Too many teams already don't generate enough revenue. Don't see adding a franchise in Georgia changing that. From a business standpoint, there has yet to be any argument presented here. Other fanbases are tired of subsidizing league experiments.
Why do you care so much? You keep posting about how it’s a waste of time to debate a team in Atlanta, yet you keep coming back and posting. Why are you so angry about a team landing in Atlanta?
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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From a business standpoint, there has yet to be any argument presented here. Other fanbases are tired of subsidizing league experiments.

Other than the fact that the NHL BOG has repeatedly and unanimously approved a plan to add markets to increase the number of potential customers by going from 21 to 32 teams in the last 35 years?

The OWNERS have zero problem with expansion and revenue sharing. FANS do, but that's because fans are jealous their teams keep NOT WINNING, and watching Vegas, Florida, Colorado, Tampa, Dallas, Nashville, San Jose, and Carolina in the SCF makes southern expansion easy scapegoats for your team's failure.

If anyone gets that, it's me. My big market team has lost to Tampa Bay twice in the Conference Finals, and Carolina in the playoffs during the the last four years. (In fact, the franchise fell off the rails beginning with FLA/ANA expansion draft that just was descending spiral of terrible decisions). So yeah, I can understand the frustration that some of those teams exist.

But what's more likely? The guys who ran successful businesses that made them rich enough to buy NHL teams don't understand business and growing revenue, so they foolishly support expansion for reasons that don't make business sense? Or that fans think it would be easier to win the Cup if Tampa didn't exist?
 

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
11,944
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Brooklyn
I literally grew up in NY



More proof that its the sport of hockey is what people in Atlanta don't like ;)
Doesn’t honestly sound like it. I still live here and I can tell you for a fact hockey is any more popular then it is in Raleigh for example.

It’s actually a proof that with right ownership NHL will thrive. MLS is a third rate league.

Keep repeating the same thing, that's shortsighted and leads to losses. Too many teams already don't generate enough revenue. Don't see adding a franchise in Georgia changing that. From a business standpoint, there has yet to be any argument presented here. Other fanbases are tired of subsidizing league experiments.
You are not subsidizing anybody. You are not doing shit. You are a nobody. Stop it.
 

nhlfan79

Registered User
Feb 3, 2005
620
1,009
Atlanta, GA
Back on topic... The Atlanta Regional Commission has now given its regulatory blessing to The Gathering development project. The proposal now moves to the county level for ultimate approval.

Here's the part that matters:

The ARC, metro Atlanta’s regional planning and intergovernmental coordination agency, praised the multi-billion-dollar The Gathering at South Forsyth project as part of a recent Development of Regional Impact report. That’s an evaluation required by state law for master-planned projects in ARC’s 13-county jurisdiction large enough to significantly impact transportation and infrastructure.

As one of the largest private development proposals in suburban Atlanta history, The Gathering would certainly seem to qualify.

The ARC’s report applauds various aspects of The Gathering, including its relative density, plans to build less parking than what’s allowed, its prospects as an engine for job growth, and nearby roadway upgrades the Georgia Department of Transportation is implementing that could accommodate visitors and new residents.

The ARC’s favorable review allows The Gathering to proceed to the county level, where Forsyth County officials can now take action on the project, according to the development team.


 

tucker3434

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Keep repeating the same thing, that's shortsighted and leads to losses. Too many teams already don't generate enough revenue. Don't see adding a franchise in Georgia changing that. From a business standpoint, there has yet to be any argument presented here. Other fanbases are tired of subsidizing league experiments.

You outed yourself on that one. It doesn't matter at all what the fanbases want. They don't get a vote. And to attack it from that direction? You want us to believe you're actually concerned that your billionaire owners might not get a few extra dollars in their pocket? Get out of here. You're just another guy wanting to play gatekeeper because you don't think southern markets deserve hockey. But the bad news for you is that southern hockey is good business. The current reach of the league is why the top teams are worth $2b, and you'd better believe the owners would love to expand that reach with the last two low hanging fruit markets out there in Houston and Atlanta. If Atlanta 3.0 submits an expansion bid, it'll be approved by the owners you're trying to protect.
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
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Duluth, GA
You outed yourself on that one. It doesn't matter at all what the fanbases want. They don't get a vote. And to attack it from that direction? You want us to believe you're actually concerned that your billionaire owners might not get a few extra dollars in their pocket? Get out of here. You're just another guy wanting to play gatekeeper because you don't think southern markets deserve hockey. But the bad news for you is that southern hockey is good business. The current reach of the league is why the top teams are worth $2b, and you'd better believe the owners would love to expand that reach with the last two low hanging fruit markets out there in Houston and Atlanta. If Atlanta 3.0 submits an expansion bid, it'll be approved by the owners you're trying to protect.

That's exactly it. The billionaires some fans act like they're defending have their eyes firmly set on the long game being played. Sure, some teams in budding markets will lose money for a while, but if it helps grow the game -- whether it be in the Arizona desert or the Florida coasts, the Piedmont region of North Carolina, and so on -- the owners seem quite content with it. If they weren't, putting teams in Vegas and Seattle would've been off the table.

Is it a gamble? Sure, one wouldn't be wrong to make that argument. All expansion, even to Quebec City, would be a gamble, and all would be gambles for different reasons. But a southern expansion team is no longer a "high risk" gamble, Hockey is working in the southeast, and it's working in Dallas. If it can work in all those places, it can work in the Atlanta market, and with the right ownership, it absolutely will.
 

varsaku

Registered User
Feb 14, 2014
2,675
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United States
After dragging the Bruins around for years, the league has money issues?
Why do you care so much about the league finances?
And are you answering for him now?
We are literally on a Business of Hockey subforum. Most here have interest in either finance or operations, so we will end up having opinions on such matters.
 

StreetHawk

Registered User
Sep 30, 2017
29,252
11,342
You outed yourself on that one. It doesn't matter at all what the fanbases want. They don't get a vote. And to attack it from that direction? You want us to believe you're actually concerned that your billionaire owners might not get a few extra dollars in their pocket? Get out of here. You're just another guy wanting to play gatekeeper because you don't think southern markets deserve hockey. But the bad news for you is that southern hockey is good business. The current reach of the league is why the top teams are worth $2b, and you'd better believe the owners would love to expand that reach with the last two low hanging fruit markets out there in Houston and Atlanta. If Atlanta 3.0 submits an expansion bid, it'll be approved by the owners you're trying to protect.
I don’t foresee the NhL doing open bids. I mean their last open bid process back I what like 2015 netted just LV and QC as applicants.

And with ATL and Hou having NBA teams it’s pretty much a scenario where the nhl can talk to their nba owners about their interests. If then answer is a no, then someone else has to build a new arena outside of the current home of rhe nba teams.

Think next time around the nhl will do it back door vs make it open. Not sure there are many non nba markets left for the nhl to get into.
 

These Are The Days

I need about tree fiddy
May 17, 2014
35,608
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Tampa Bay
Expansion to Atlanta in the not too distant future almost sounds inevitable to be honest. I get why so many fans in longstanding markets are so pissed but I don't know how you can run a business and not potentially engage some 6 million combined people in the Atlanta metro area. Quebec City would be a great peace offering but it's not gonna stop people from getting pissed at Atlanta 3.0. The Thrashers ownership is the most toxic ownership story I think I have ever heard.
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
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Duluth, GA
And with ATL and Hou having NBA teams it’s pretty much a scenario where the nhl can talk to their nba owners about their interests. If then answer is a no, then someone else has to build a new arena outside of the current home of rhe nba teams.

I don't believe the Hawks' ownership has any interest in a NHL franchise, which is fine, because I don't believe the NHL has any interest in downtown Atlanta based on the recent remarks from Daly. The location of the fans, roughly 30 miles north of the city, is one reason why the proposed arena development is in southern Forsyth County.
 

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