Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[BKIslandersFan]

I don't believe the Hawks' ownership has any interest in a NHL franchise, which is fine, because I don't believe the NHL has any interest in downtown Atlanta based on the recent remarks from Daly. The location of the fans, roughly 30 miles north of the city, is one reason why the proposed arena development is in southern Forsyth County.

There is nothing wrong with Atlanta downtown for NHL. Where does Detroit Red Wings play?

 

[These Are The Days]

I don't get it. Two franchises owned by 2 different people can't play in the same building or something? Is there something I missed? Philips Arena was fine

 

[tucker3434]

I don't get it. Two franchises owned by 2 different people can't play in the same building or something? Is there something I missed? Philips Arena was fine

Whoever isn’t the operator sees no benefit from the arena’s other operations and is at the mercy of the operator for the lease. It would be a very delicate situation and difficult to make work long term. You couldn’t put Atlanta 3.0 in that spot indefinitely if you actually wanted it to work.

 

[StreetHawk]

I don't get it. Two franchises owned by 2 different people can't play in the same building or something? Is there something I missed? Philips Arena was fine

Comes down to money.

2 different owners can survive in the same arena. Dallas Mavs and Stars do but they both contributed to the arena costs, thus share the non sports revenues.

But, in cities like Boston, Philly for example, the NHL team owners own the building, but because of TV money, the NBA clubs are actually ok as tenants, though the Sixers are looking to build their own building by the time their lease expires in like 5/6 years. But, will have been with the Flyers for 3 decades by then.

If the situation is flipped and the arena is controlled by the NBA club, like ATL, Houston, Portland, Milwaukee, etc. down the line, an NHL team financially, because of a much lower TV contract, is not viable as a tenant only. Or at least, we have not seen it happen.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Whoever isn’t the operator sees no benefit from the arena’s other operations and is at the mercy of the operator for the lease. It would be a very delicate situation and difficult to make work long term. You couldn’t put Atlanta 3.0 in that spot indefinitely if you actually wanted it to work.

Only remote possibility is if Hawks do not want competing arena and offers Atlanta NHL team a sweetheart deal. Like Bruins do for Celtics.

But thats not happening.

 

[dj4aces]

There is nothing wrong with Atlanta downtown for NHL. Where does Detroit Red Wings play?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. The remarks made by Daly seem to indicate the league's position that a building in the suburbs would be far more favorable, at least in the Atlanta market, than playing in State Farm Arena downtown.

It's important to remember that, while there's a lot of us Michiganders down here in the Atlanta area, Atlanta is not Detroit.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Perhaps. Perhaps not. The remarks made by Daly seem to indicate the league's position that a building in the suburbs would be far more favorable, at least in the Atlanta market, than playing in State Farm Arena downtown.

It's important to remember that, while there's a lot of us Michiganders down here in the Atlanta area, Atlanta is not Detroit.

Looking at the Coyotes debacle I am not keen on suburb arenas.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Looking at the Coyotes debacle I am not keen on suburb arenas.

It depends on where you build it.....

 

[dj4aces]

Looking at the Coyotes debacle I am not keen on suburb arenas.

And that's absolutely a fair concern. It's certainly a bit of an unknown, to be sure. However, much like how Atlanta isn't Detroit, Atlanta also isn't Phoenix. Just because something isn't working in one place doesn't mean it automatically won't work anywhere.

It's a fact that most hockey fans in the Atlanta market are located north of I-285. The league knows this,, otherwise they wouldn't be saying things like "the location is a key factor", and further alluding to the Braves and their move north of the perimeter. So, this proposed arena would be placed in an area where fans already are.

As detailed on the previous page, the new arena proposal now goes to Forsyth County officials for approval. If approved, this is an important first step to seeing the league possibly return to the market.

 

[mikelvl]

Agree or disagree, the NHL is going back to Atlanta and most likely Houston or Salt Lake City as well. It's all about the Benjamins and these franchises will cost a $2 billion expansion fee. Personally, the only team that I want to see back is Quebec City.

 

[StreetHawk]

And that's absolutely a fair concern. It's certainly a bit of an unknown, to be sure. However, much like how Atlanta isn't Detroit, Atlanta also isn't Phoenix. Just because something isn't working in one place doesn't mean it automatically won't work anywhere.

It's a fact that most hockey fans in the Atlanta market are located north of I-285. The league knows this,, otherwise they wouldn't be saying things like "the location is a key factor", and further alluding to the Braves and their move north of the perimeter. So, this proposed arena would be placed in an area where fans already are.

As detailed on the previous page, the new arena proposal now goes to Forsyth County officials for approval. If approved, this is an important first step to seeing the league possibly return to the market.

NY and SoCal (LA) have multiple arenas. Manhattan, Nassau, Brooklyn, Belmont. Then LA, Inglewood with soon to be 2 once the clippers arena opens and Anaheim.

St Paul and Minneapolis work as they are two separate metropolitan areas.

Miami (Heat and Panthers), Arizona (Phx and Glendale). Did the burb arena do as a well?

Been a while but the wings and Pistons were in 2 different arenas with the pistons in Auburn Hills which was in the burbs. If it was renovated to todays standards would the pistons still work there financially?

I get that people point to the Braves but their stadium isn’t competing with another ballpark. This one would compete with SFA for non hockey events.

Pro teams ultimately get sold. So I have my questions when getting a team is part of a real estate play. Glendale arena was to be part of a real estate development. The Sens as well with their arena in kanata there was to be development around it but that didn’t happen.

 

[TheLegend]

NY and SoCal (LA) have multiple arenas. Manhattan, Nassau, Brooklyn, Belmont. Then LA, Inglewood with soon to be 2 once the clippers arena opens and Anaheim.

St Paul and Minneapolis work as they are two separate metropolitan areas.

Miami (Heat and Panthers), Arizona (Phx and Glendale). Did the burb arena do as a well?

Been a while but the wings and Pistons were in 2 different arenas with the pistons in Auburn Hills which was in the burbs. If it was renovated to todays standards would the pistons still work there financially?

I get that people point to the Braves but their stadium isn’t competing with another ballpark. This one would compete with SFA for non hockey events.

Pro teams ultimately get sold. So I have my questions when getting a team is part of a real estate play. Glendale arena was to be part of a real estate development. The Sens as well with their arena in kanata there was to be development around it but that didn’t happen.

One point of clarity with the Coyotes and Glendale.

It's a bit complicated but the Coyotes originally were a part of Westgate. The arena at Westgate was built and owned by the City of Glendale. But operated by the owners of the Coyotes.

That all changed when Steve Ellman and Jerry Moyes split their partnership and the Coyotes were separated from Westgate to stand on their own at the arena.

So it's not as simple as where you locate and arena, it also includes what you have going around it and who owns what.

In Arizona you have two arenas with a possible third coming within the next 3-4 years. No matter where that arena is built it's going to require a hefty amount of secondary income to support it along with any team that plays in it.

 

[dj4aces]

I get that people point to the Braves but their stadium isn’t competing with another ballpark. This one would compete with SFA for non hockey events.

The thing I think people are missing from my posts is, I'm commenting from an objective and neutral point of view. My feelings are not a part of what I'm saying. You don't have to convince me of things, because my subjective view is that I share similar concerns with having a $2bn development 45 minutes away from downtown competing for non-hockey events.

At this point, the proposed development is up to the county, and if those county officials are worth anything, they'll be asking all these questions, as well as questions we haven't even thought of, before they make a decision.

 

[tucker3434]

NY and SoCal (LA) have multiple arenas. Manhattan, Nassau, Brooklyn, Belmont. Then LA, Inglewood with soon to be 2 once the clippers arena opens and Anaheim.

St Paul and Minneapolis work as they are two separate metropolitan areas.

Miami (Heat and Panthers), Arizona (Phx and Glendale). Did the burb arena do as a well?

Been a while but the wings and Pistons were in 2 different arenas with the pistons in Auburn Hills which was in the burbs. If it was renovated to todays standards would the pistons still work there financially?

I get that people point to the Braves but their stadium isn’t competing with another ballpark. This one would compete with SFA for non hockey events.

Pro teams ultimately get sold. So I have my questions when getting a team is part of a real estate play. Glendale arena was to be part of a real estate development. The Sens as well with their arena in kanata there was to be development around it but that didn’t happen.

Atlanta could use some additional capacity. Based on size and central location, it’s an inevitable stop for any tour with a southeastern leg, and there are only so many dates SFA can handle.

They already own the land for the whole development. I’d imagine that wasn’t the case with the others. It wasn’t with Turner Field either. All were promises to build the area with no concrete basis. But these guys are just going to sit on vacant land.

My guess is that the arena would be publicly funded and owned by the county. The secret potential NHL ownership group would put up the cash for expansion. Then there would be an equity swap with the owners of the gathering so that each had interest in the other. The NHL team would have operating rights to the arena. As long as those rights stay stapled to the NHL team, it could be a viable venue indefinitely, regardless of who ends up owning what. The two properties could continue to benefit each other even if common ownership no longer exists.

 

[KevFu]

Agree or disagree, the NHL is going back to Atlanta and most likely Houston or Salt Lake City as well. It's all about the Benjamins and these franchises will cost a $2 billion expansion fee. Personally, the only team that I want to see back is Quebec City.

I believe that big southern US markets HELP Quebec get a team.

Investors like UPSIDE. They want the high reward. They don't want "pay a billion expansion fee and make $5m to $15m profit a year guaranteed." They want "it's $50m to $100m profit if you're good."

They want the Cup T-shirt principle: If Dallas wins the Cup and sells a $20 shirt to everyone who's just a bandwagon fan, that's $160m. If Winnipeg wins the Cup and everyone in Manitoba is a legit die-hard fan who buys a shirt AND a hat, it's $80m. That's why US South teams have won out over markets with "BETTER fan bases."

But the NHL can't take 4 gambles at once. They're going to hedge their bets. The NHL WON'T expand for Quebec City as the 17th team in the East. Quebec and "someone else in the East" makes no sense. But the NHL WILL expand for "Atlanta... and Quebec comes with."

Even if you think SD, HOU and ATL is really stupid... the best path to get QC an NHL team is if investors in San Diego, Houston and Atlanta want in.

 

[cowboy82nd]

I don't get it. Two franchises owned by 2 different people can't play in the same building or something? Is there something I missed? Philips Arena was fine

No, it wasn't. The owners of the Arena, didn't want the Thrashers there at all. But, to get the Hawks and the arena, the Thrashers came with. Once the ten year agreement with the NHL expired, the Thrashers were sold. Local ownership groups were told that they could buy the Thrashers, but the can't play in Phillips Arena anymore. That's why Phillips Arena was NOT fine.

 

[cowboy82nd]

I believe that big southern US markets HELP Quebec get a team.

Investors like UPSIDE. They want the high reward. They don't want "pay a billion expansion fee and make $5m to $15m profit a year guaranteed." They want "it's $50m to $100m profit if you're good."

They want the Cup T-shirt principle: If Dallas wins the Cup and sells a $20 shirt to everyone who's just a bandwagon fan, that's $160m. If Winnipeg wins the Cup and everyone in Manitoba is a legit die-hard fan who buys a shirt AND a hat, it's $80m. That's why US South teams have won out over markets with "BETTER fan bases."

But the NHL can't take 4 gambles at once. They're going to hedge their bets. The NHL WON'T expand for Quebec City as the 17th team in the East. Quebec and "someone else in the East" makes no sense. But the NHL WILL expand for "Atlanta... and Quebec comes with."

Even if you think SD, HOU and ATL is really stupid... the best path to get QC an NHL team is if investors in San Diego, Houston and Atlanta want in.

I don't believe San Diego is in the running. I think it's Salt Lake City. I could be wrong, though.

 

[These Are The Days]

No, it wasn't. The owners of the Arena, didn't want the Thrashers there at all. But, to get the Hawks and the arena, the Thrashers came with. Once the ten year agreement with the NHL expired, the Thrashers were sold. Local ownership groups were told that they could buy the Thrashers, but the can't play in Phillips Arena anymore. That's why Phillips Arena was NOT fine.

Yeah that was my understanding

Yeah I think Atlanta is probably going to happen again one day. No franchise on earth will succeed in those conditions. There and Houston make a lot of sense. But give it 2-10 years. It's getting pretty close to "too many teams" territory

 

[ponder719]

But give it 2-10 years.

Even if the NHL granted them a franchise tomorrow, it would almost certainly be with the proviso that they don't start until the arena is finished, and I don't believe there's any way the entire development would be done before the season after next anyway. The early part of your timeline there is right in line with start of play if everything goes according to plan for Atlanta.

 

[These Are The Days]

Even if the NHL granted them a franchise tomorrow, it would almost certainly be with the proviso that they don't start until the arena is finished, and I don't believe there's any way the entire development would be done before the season after next anyway. The early part of your timeline there is right in line with start of play if everything goes according to plan for Atlanta.

Yeah I probably overdid it. 5 years is probably more realistic

 

[tucker3434]

I believe that big southern US markets HELP Quebec get a team.

Investors like UPSIDE. They want the high reward. They don't want "pay a billion expansion fee and make $5m to $15m profit a year guaranteed." They want "it's $50m to $100m profit if you're good."

They want the Cup T-shirt principle: If Dallas wins the Cup and sells a $20 shirt to everyone who's just a bandwagon fan, that's $160m. If Winnipeg wins the Cup and everyone in Manitoba is a legit die-hard fan who buys a shirt AND a hat, it's $80m. That's why US South teams have won out over markets with "BETTER fan bases."

But the NHL can't take 4 gambles at once. They're going to hedge their bets. The NHL WON'T expand for Quebec City as the 17th team in the East. Quebec and "someone else in the East" makes no sense. But the NHL WILL expand for "Atlanta... and Quebec comes with."

Even if you think SD, HOU and ATL is really stupid... the best path to get QC an NHL team is if investors in San Diego, Houston and Atlanta want in.

Unless the economics of professional hockey change significantly, I don’t think QC will ever be a realistic expansion option. They aren’t really an effective hedge because their floor isn’t materially higher than a southern market. Small markets are difficult everywhere.

People wanting QC needed to reset their focus. Atlanta and Houston aren’t the competition. Arizona is.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

St Paul and Minneapolis work as they are two separate metropolitan areas.

On what planet?

 

[GreenHornet]

Even if the NHL granted them a franchise tomorrow, it would almost certainly be with the proviso that they don't start until the arena is finished, and I don't believe there's any way the entire development would be done before the season after next anyway. The early part of your timeline there is right in line with start of play if everything goes according to plan for Atlanta.

Last I heard, the hope was to have shovels in the ground (for the arena and at least most of the rest of the development) by either late this year or early in 2024, with the idea of having the arena done in time to start the 2026-27 season. In fact, I'm pretty sure shovels have already gone in the ground for a lot of the infrastructure.

FWIW, an old high school chum of mine who knows a lot of (to use a Yiddish term) "machers" around town claims that he's heard a new team could play at State Farm Arena for one season before moving into the new arena. Of course, he's always been something of a blowhard and know-it-all, so I'm not taking that seriously.

 

[dj4aces]

Last I heard, the hope was to have shovels in the ground (for the arena and at least most of the rest of the development) by either late this year or early in 2024, with the idea of having the arena done in time to start the 2026-27 season. In fact, I'm pretty sure shovels have already gone in the ground for a lot of the infrastructure.

FWIW, an old high school chum of mine who knows a lot of (to use a Yiddish term) "machers" around town claims that he's heard a new team could play at State Farm Arena for one season before moving into the new arena. Of course, he's always been something of a blowhard and know-it-all, so I'm not taking that seriously.

I've heard similar (at least insofar as The Gathering). It all depends on when it gets approved. Based on other recent projects, such as the construction of Truist Park and Little Caesar's Arena, it'll be about three years before The Gathering is actually completed. So it all depends on when construction starts.

As for the idea that a team could call State Farm downtown home for a season before moving into The Gathering, I'm with you. I don't see that happening. The only possible way I think it could is if the Coyotes relocate here before The Gathering is completed. I think hockey-starved fans would be okay with having to travel downtown temporarily, knowing a new barn is under construction closer to home.

I should stress that I find that scenario incredibly unlikely, but a relocation prior to the building being ready is the only scenario I can think of where it makes sense for a team to play downtown again.

 

[mikelvl]

Unless the economics of professional hockey change significantly, I don’t think QC will ever be a realistic expansion option. They aren’t really an effective hedge because their floor isn’t materially higher than a southern market. Small markets are difficult everywhere.

People wanting QC needed to reset their focus. Atlanta and Houston aren’t the competition. Arizona is.

Salt Lake City is waiting for Arizona to fail. They already have the arena and they fit the Western team footprint. They would be the closest team to Denver.