Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[nhlfan79]

Edmonton has had rock solid support for almost 45 years, aside from a 4 year dip after Pocklington sold off the dynasty team. The Oilers had to sell 13K season tickets every year to keep their subsidy that was keeping the team afloat. This is was during the era of no salary cap where the best the team could hope for was being the 7th or 8th seed and maybe getting past the first round once every 2-3 years.

The Thrashers attendance dropped by 2K per game from year 1 to year 2. That's before ASG came in etc.

Corporate support only happens if there is an underlying support for the team. A corporation is only buying seats if they can be used as a giveaway to customers and staff. They are only buying sponsorships to gain exposure which only happens if there are eyes on the game. Atlanta hasn't shown that exists. The idea that "hey there are 5 million people in Atlanta, some of them must like hockey" just doesn't hold water.

As far as the other markets go, if given the choice between buying a team in Hamilton and one in Atlanta, any business man unless they were biased would pick Hamilton 100% of the time. When Balsillie tired to move the Predators they got 14K season ticket deposits in 2 days. Look at how fast Winnipeg snapped up 13K season tickets.

Have the Oilers ever gone 11 straight years with only one playoff appearance and no playoff wins, all while surrounded by many other competing options for the fans' disposable dollars? You can't possibly be comparing Edmonton, which has a legendary Stanley Cup dynasty legacy, to an attendance dropoff in year two by a historically horrible expansion team that won only 14 of 82 games.

Further, because the franchise's failure was by the owners' intentional design, how can you possibly know that there aren't enough hockey fans here? If you knew anything about Atlanta demographics, of the 6+ million people here, more than half have moved here since 1990, mostly from other actual hockey markets. That was the Thrashers ultimate problem. They never tried to convert those hockey fans into fans of the Thrashers themselves. They stunk, badly, so most people who came to games came once or twice per season year to see their old hometown team beat up on the local team. That's not how you build success and longevity.

But again, ASG deliberately did not want people buying hockey tickets, so this is all academic anyway.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Edmonton has had rock solid support for almost 45 years, aside from a 4 year dip after Pocklington sold off the dynasty team. The Oilers had to sell 13K season tickets every year to keep their subsidy that was keeping the team afloat. This is was during the era of no salary cap where the best the team could hope for was being the 7th or 8th seed and maybe getting past the first round once every 2-3 years.

The Thrashers attendance dropped by 2K per game from year 1 to year 2. That's before ASG came in etc.

Corporate support only happens if there is an underlying support for the team. A corporation is only buying seats if they can be used as a giveaway to customers and staff. They are only buying sponsorships to gain exposure which only happens if there are eyes on the game. Atlanta hasn't shown that exists. The idea that "hey there are 5 million people in Atlanta, some of them must like hockey" just doesn't hold water.

As far as the other markets go, if given the choice between buying a team in Hamilton and one in Atlanta, any business man unless they were biased would pick Hamilton 100% of the time. When Balsillie tired to move the Predators they got 14K season ticket deposits in 2 days. Look at how fast Winnipeg snapped up 13K season tickets.

Point on Edmonton was that they came within a hair of being moved. I always get that it was because of the economy at the time but doesn't matter.

Anyone can single out a couple years of low attendance for every team. The Thrashers attendance jumped from 03 to 08. Then went back down (magically) every season after ASG bought the team.

Corporate dollars goes way beyond a couple seats to entertain guests. Sponsorships and boxed seats are a necessity...just ask Chipman.

And you can not tell me with a straight face that Hamilton, a city 1/10 the size of Atlanta, would be picked every time. And my point in small markets isn't a one-time sale in tickets, it's the risk of needing the same base of fans, not matter how hockey-crazed they are, to constantly buy tickets. There is minimal growth in these northern markets and there is minimal corporate presence (at least when compared to many of the other large markets). So when the economy is bad or the arena is old or the team sucks, those issues we get a lot of here are amplified 10x. Relying on the same fans to buy tickets 10 years removed from their honeymoon ticket-drive isn't sustainable in many cases (not always).

 

[tucker3434]

Edmonton has had rock solid support for almost 45 years, aside from a 4 year dip after Pocklington sold off the dynasty team. The Oilers had to sell 13K season tickets every year to keep their subsidy that was keeping the team afloat. This is was during the era of no salary cap where the best the team could hope for was being the 7th or 8th seed and maybe getting past the first round once every 2-3 years.

The Thrashers attendance dropped by 2K per game from year 1 to year 2. That's before ASG came in etc.

Corporate support only happens if there is an underlying support for the team. A corporation is only buying seats if they can be used as a giveaway to customers and staff. They are only buying sponsorships to gain exposure which only happens if there are eyes on the game. Atlanta hasn't shown that exists. The idea that "hey there are 5 million people in Atlanta, some of them must like hockey" just doesn't hold water.

As far as the other markets go, if given the choice between buying a team in Hamilton and one in Atlanta, any business man unless they were biased would pick Hamilton 100% of the time. When Balsillie tired to move the Predators they got 14K season ticket deposits in 2 days. Look at how fast Winnipeg snapped up 13K season tickets.

Nah, corporate support is just kinda there. Many of the larger ones have boxes seats for all the major professional sports teams, regardless of how they’re playing. They’d snap up a box for Atlanta 3.0 just because it’s there.

We’re at 6.1m people now. We were at 5m a decade ago. And at some point, “hey there are x million people in Atlanta, some of them must like hockey” is no longer a guess. It becomes a mathematical certainty. Arenas are still 18k, same as they were 30+ years ago. The more people you have. The easier it is to fill them.

Hamilton isn’t realistic because there is active opposition among current owners.

Not sure why you’re bringing Winnipeg up. They’re struggling now for both fan and corporate support. They’re an excellent example why small market Canada isn’t at all a safe bet.

 

[Reaser]

No dog in the fight but as always, laugh at the pages of responses talking about attendance and the parsing of relatively minuscule differences in attendance numbers.

NHL is only a 'gate-driven league' if you exclude broadcast rights.

Whether the Jets are getting 13k or 14k in attendance, it pales in "hockey market" discussion to the 200-300k on average per local broadcast.

FWIW, I believe the Thrashers final season was roughly 8k HHs and that was UP something like 30-40% from previous. Atlanta was always down with the Panthers and Yotes at the bottom of the list. And the bottom had then and still has now embarrassingly bad ratings and viewership numbers. That's "fan support," not whether a team averages 12k or 13k from one year to the next.

 

[tucker3434]

No dog in the fight but as always, laugh at the pages of responses talking about attendance and the parsing of relatively minuscule differences in attendance numbers.

NHL is only a 'gate-driven league' if you exclude broadcast rights.

Whether the Jets are getting 13k or 14k in attendance, it pales in "hockey market" discussion to the 200-300k on average per local broadcast.

FWIW, I believe the Thrashers final season was roughly 8k HHs and that was UP something like 30-40% from previous. Atlanta was always down with the Panthers and Yotes at the bottom of the list. And the bottom had then and still has now embarrassingly bad ratings and viewership numbers. That's "fan support," not whether a team averages 12k or 13k from one year to the next.

“Fan support” only matters to the extent you can monetize it. If 300k Canadian tv sets translated to a mid pack NHL revenue floor that would change this conversation entirely. But it doesn’t. In the current NHL, a southern market with corporate support, 16k+ butts in seats, and only 10k tv sets tuning in is pulling in more revenue than Winnipegs 300k tvs.

 

[Reaser]

“Fan support” only matters to the extent you can monetize it. If 300k Canadian tv sets translated to a mid pack NHL revenue floor that would change this conversation entirely. But it doesn’t. In the current NHL, a southern market with corporate support, 16k+ butts in seats, and only 10k tv sets tuning in is pulling in more revenue than Winnipegs 300k tvs.

When the Thrashers were in the league, their comparables were with the Panthers. I'd have to look it up (I'm not a Jets fan) but I'm pretty sure the Jets get more revenue than the Panthers (haven't seen most recent season and obviously Cup run would boost FLA) and/or are higher on the list of "NHL revenue by team" year-after-year. As well as their valuation (Forbes) being higher than the Panthers. So small market Winnipeg is carried by something, if it isn't "corporate support" (and judging by what came out of WPG, it isn't) and their average attendance is 'only' 14k, they have to be getting revenue from somewhere.

 

[tucker3434]

When the Thrashers were in the league, their comparables were with the Panthers. I'd have to look it up (I'm not a Jets fan) but I'm pretty sure the Jets get more revenue than the Panthers (haven't seen most recent season and obviously Cup run would boost FLA) and/or are higher on the list of "NHL revenue by team" year-after-year. As well as their valuation (Forbes) being higher than the Panthers. So small market Winnipeg is carried by something, if it isn't "corporate support" (and judging by what came out of WPG, it isn't) and their average attendance is 'only' 14k, they have to be getting revenue from somewhere.

Another comparable to the Thrashers was the Predators. The thrashers outdrew the preds for a while. The Preds got some competent management, started winning games, and now they’re in good shape.

There are more southern markets out performing Winnipeg than there aren’t. Of the bottom 5 revenue teams (and Winnipeg is #5) only 2 are in the south and 1 in the southeast. Yeah, they’re making revenue. Just not very much.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

New York likes hockey. New York also doesn't have college sports in any meaningful way. St Johns basketball hasn't been relevant in decades. While you have UCONN basketball but its not really drawing away from NYC teams. There is nothing on par with SEC football

New York doesn't actually like hockey. They like Rangers. And to a much less extent obviously, they like Islanders and Devils.

But they don't like hockey. Once their season is done hockey talk stops. And even during the season hockey talk on radio and media is minimal. Barring something big happens.

I agree there is no big college teams in NYC area, but theres 2 NBA teams, 2 MLB teams, and 2 NFL teams.

But ok I will give you a better example. Why do you think Greater LA metro area has two teams?

 

[AintLifeGrand]

By that logic only people in 30 cities would watch the NFL. There are Premier League bars in cities across North America that don't even have MLS squads.

If you look at the markets that everyone keeps throwing around:

1) Utah - has minor league hockey, high school, and amateur programs
2) Portland - Supports WHL hockey. The hang up is ownership because the Trailblazers are in limbo with Allen's estate
3) Houston - history of supporting minor hockey. Hardcore sports town
4) QC - has an arena and they love hockey
5) Hamilton - has an arena (probably needs another renovation) and they love hockey

Only one of those has had an NHL team in the last 50 years and only lost it because of an old arena. So with all those options why would you pick logically pick Atlanta

Atlanta's Metro Area is larger than SLC, Portland, QC, and Hamilton combined,

there is you reason

Houston's only shot a team are the Fertitta's who won't pay the expansion fee and have shown no interest in a NHL Team

Atlanta's wealth, growth, size and diversity are extremely attractive to the NHL. Want to get more brown and black people into hockey? Want to ensure the NHL doesn't lose steam to the MLS in the next 20 years ? Get more brown and black people into hockey.

Atlanta is "Black Hollywood". We have arguably the largest core populace of affluent and upper middle class blacks in North America- the best way to get a more diverse player and fan base is to ice a competitive team in Atlanta

 

[AintLifeGrand]

The route to go to Alpharetta isn't I-75 - that's what you would take to get to Braves games at SunTrust.

The proposed Thrashers site is up GA 400, which is, for all intents ans purposes, an eight-lane interstate. Important to note: this location is smack in the middle of where the majority of Thrashers STH live, and is central to the amateur hockey community that has grown since leaving.

Realistically, the majority of fans wouldn't be traveling from downtown ATL, they'd be coming from Alpharetta, Cumming, Buford, and other suburbs using surface streets.

Not entirely sure it helps traffic in any discernible way, but it is central to the demographic that is most likely to support it. For the most part, the wealthy Atlanta suburbs are within 10-15 miles of this location. Peachtree City being a notable exception.

Its a pain in the ass to get to from Buckhead, but you are correct on pretty much anything else.

I also think Virginia Highlands, N Druid Hills, Tucker, Decatur, EAV, Cabbage town, o4w, midtown will all comprise a decent portion of the interested fan base.

Ideally the rink would be at the top of Perimeter but I will accept the NorthPt mall site...Forysthe County doesn't have me excited

 

[AintLifeGrand]

Nah, corporate support is just kinda there. Many of the larger ones have boxes seats for all the major professional sports teams, regardless of how they’re playing. They’d snap up a box for Atlanta 3.0 just because it’s there.

We’re at 6.1m people now. We were at 5m a decade ago. And at some point, “hey there are x million people in Atlanta, some of them must like hockey” is no longer a guess. It becomes a mathematical certainty. Arenas are still 18k, same as they were 30+ years ago. The more people you have. The easier it is to fill them.

Hamilton isn’t realistic because there is active opposition among current owners.

Not sure why you’re bringing Winnipeg up. They’re struggling now for both fan and corporate support. They’re an excellent example why small market Canada isn’t at all a safe bet.

I would for the record Support the Jets moving back to Atlanta on the condition the previous 10 seasons be whitewashed, as they have done to our team's legacy

 

[Bostonzamboni]

Gee, I wonder what the Braves are doing.

And...the Hawks are over capacity for almost all games the past 2-3 years (?) whenever I check ESPN box scores.

Just a few games this year, I think, were not sellouts, but very close still. Gone are the not-to-distant days when yes, they'd draw only 9,000 to 11,000 for some games. Just think what a great NBA city it could be nowadays if they ever got to the final 4 or Finals semi-regularly.

And...the new MLS team is a quick, rousing success the past few seasons.

 

[aqib]

New York doesn't actually like hockey. They like Rangers. And to a much less extent obviously, they like Islanders and Devils.

But they don't like hockey. Once their season is done hockey talk stops. And even during the season hockey talk on radio and media is minimal. Barring something big happens.

I agree there is no big college teams in NYC area, but theres 2 NBA teams, 2 MLB teams, and 2 NFL teams.

But ok I will give you a better example. Why do you think Greater LA metro area has two teams?

Anaheim got the Ducks because Michael Eisner thought it would be a good investment for Disney, Orange County built an arena hoping that a major league team would move in, and Bruce McNall needed the cash infusion from getting half the expansion fee to keep his criminal enterprise afloat. It's stupid to have 2 teams in SoCal and only one in Southern Ontario. If the Ducks didn't exist do you think anyone would get behind the idea of expanding their now?


As far as New Yorkers liking hockey, I guess we're back to anecdotal evidence again. While I agree few New Yorkers have hockey as their #1 sport, they like it enough to support it in big enough numbers that each of the 3 teams is viable. Same reason why there are 2 teams in each of the other sports. NY showed over the years that people love baseball, football, and basketball enough that they will support 2 teams in each sport.

Atlanta's Metro Area is larger than SLC, Portland, QC, and Hamilton combined,

there is you reason

Houston's only shot a team are the Fertitta's who won't pay the expansion fee and have shown no interest in a NHL Team

Atlanta's wealth, growth, size and diversity are extremely attractive to the NHL. Want to get more brown and black people into hockey? Want to ensure the NHL doesn't lose steam to the MLS in the next 20 years ? Get more brown and black people into hockey.

Atlanta is "Black Hollywood". We have arguably the largest core populace of affluent and upper middle class blacks in North America- the best way to get a more diverse player and fan base is to ice a competitive team in Atlanta

Atlanta always had a large African-American population. That didn't help the Thrashers. Considering the new arena isn't going to be downtown how is that going to help attract African-Americans to the team? Wasn't part of the reason the Thrashers didn't work was because the downtown location didn't appeal to hockey fans.

Atlanta's Metro Area is larger than SLC, Portland, QC, and Hamilton combined,

there is you reason

Houston's only shot a team are the Fertitta's who won't pay the expansion fee and have shown no interest in a NHL Team

Atlanta's wealth, growth, size and diversity are extremely attractive to the NHL. Want to get more brown and black people into hockey? Want to ensure the NHL doesn't lose steam to the MLS in the next 20 years ? Get more brown and black people into hockey.

Atlanta is "Black Hollywood". We have arguably the largest core populace of affluent and upper middle class blacks in North America- the best way to get a more diverse player and fan base is to ice a competitive team in Atlanta

Atlanta always had a large African-American population. That didn't help the Thrashers. Considering the new arena isn't going to be downtown how is that going to help attract African-Americans to the team? Wasn't part of the reason the Thrashers didn't work was because the downtown location didn't appeal to hockey fans.

 

[William Satterwhite]

Atlanta always had a large African-American population. That didn't help the Thrashers. Considering the new arena isn't going to be downtown how is that going to help attract African-Americans to the team? Wasn't part of the reason the Thrashers didn't work was because the downtown location didn't appeal to hockey fans.

For whatever it's worth, the proposed arena location is not terribly inconvenient for the core of the affluent African-American base in Dekalb County which is anchored largely on the eastern arm of the Perimeter. Downtown would obviously be better if that was ones main audience but as a secondary (if that) market people who want to can get from Dekalb County to Alpharetta.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Anaheim got the Ducks because Michael Eisner thought it would be a good investment for Disney, Orange County built an arena hoping that a major league team would move in, and Bruce McNall needed the cash infusion from getting half the expansion fee to keep his criminal enterprise afloat. It's stupid to have 2 teams in SoCal and only one in Southern Ontario. If the Ducks didn't exist do you think anyone would get behind the idea of expanding their now?

And Anaheim is still there aren't they? Sure they don't get the greatest TV ratings but they are still there. Whether Southern Ontario should have another team is irrelevant to this point. Maybe they should, but they shouldn't. But clearly Leafs don't want them and will block it any way they can.

As far as New Yorkers liking hockey, I guess we're back to anecdotal evidence again. While I agree few New Yorkers have hockey as their #1 sport, they like it enough to support it in big enough numbers that each of the 3 teams is viable. Same reason why there are 2 teams in each of the other sports. NY showed over the years that people love baseball, football, and basketball enough that they will support 2 teams in each sport.

You kinda proved my point. New York population is so big there are enough people that will support 3 teams. Population matters.

Atlanta always had a large African-American population. That didn't help the Thrashers. Considering the new arena isn't going to be downtown how is that going to help attract African-Americans to the team? Wasn't part of the reason the Thrashers didn't work was because the downtown location didn't appeal to hockey fans.

I don't think it will be as good as having a team downtown, but having a team in the metro is better to get those fans aboard than not having it at all. Black fans travel to Braves games in the burb.

 

[KCC]

Point on Edmonton was that they came within a hair of being moved. I always get that it was because of the economy at the time but doesn't matter.

Anyone can single out a couple years of low attendance for every team. The Thrashers attendance jumped from 03 to 08. Then went back down (magically) every season after ASG bought the team.

Corporate dollars goes way beyond a couple seats to entertain guests. Sponsorships and boxed seats are a necessity...just ask Chipman.

And you can not tell me with a straight face that Hamilton, a city 1/10 the size of Atlanta, would be picked every time. And my point in small markets isn't a one-time sale in tickets, it's the risk of needing the same base of fans, not matter how hockey-crazed they are, to constantly buy tickets. There is minimal growth in these northern markets and there is minimal corporate presence (at least when compared to many of the other large markets). So when the economy is bad or the arena is old or the team sucks, those issues we get a lot of here are amplified 10x. Relying on the same fans to buy tickets 10 years removed from their honeymoon ticket-drive isn't sustainable in many cases (not always).

A lot of teams were a hair away from being moved in the 90s. Even some where you couldn't even blame the economy. The fan support just wasn't there.

 

[joelef]

A lot of teams were a hair away from being moved in the 90s. Even some where you couldn't even blame the economy. The fan support just wasn't there.

Don’t tell the Canadian media that.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

For whatever it's worth, the proposed arena location is not terribly inconvenient for the core of the affluent African-American base in Dekalb County which is anchored largely on the eastern arm of the Perimeter. Downtown would obviously be better if that was ones main audience but as a secondary (if that) market people who want to can get from Dekalb County to Alpharetta.

I generally agree- a game in downtown just hits different than a generic development outside the perimeter.

The Former GM site in Doraville
would have been the best compromise but ai believe its been taken over by the film industry.

I wonder if theres a site on the Upper West Side that would be adequate??

African American core area is more east than North East- Think East of Decatur/Stone Mtn and south to Clayton and Henry Counties.

Lilburn/ Snellville just north of there arguably comprise a healthy population of hockey fans but the Forsythe Co/Alpharetta location makes it hard for for a weeknight game. When i played in HS schools like Brookwood , South/North Gwinnett, Collins Hill, Dacula all had solid teams .

The North Eastern ITP/ Briarcliff and North Druid Hills rd area has alot of people who work in Decatur/ Emory/CDC area, who fit the NHL’s demo like a glove. Decent amount of transplants. I grew up around here and anecdotally there was a decent contingent of thrashers fans. Forsythe County/ Alpharetta makes it very hard to make it to a weeknight game from here

Buckhead/ Brookhaven would be about a 45 min drive up 400

East Cobb- which I always associated as a big hockey area (Walton ,Lassiter, Pope always had good teams and former home to Parkaire-RIP) is pretty far from
Alpharetta/ Forsythe too

Hopefully the North Pt Mall site is selected as I think Forysthe county is untenable for about half the fanbase

 

[aqib]

You kinda proved my point. New York population is so big there are enough people that will support 3 teams. Population matters.

Its not just that NY has a lot of people, its that they have a lot of people that like hockey and pro sports in general. People who shill for Atlanta keep ignoring the impact of college sports on the pro teams. When you have SEC football and ACC basketball so strong in the region, that makes it harder for pro sports teams to gain a foothold, especially in a sport that's new.

 

[tucker3434]

I generally agree- a game in downtown just hits different than a generic development outside the perimeter.

The Former GM site in Doraville
would have been the best compromise but ai believe its been taken over by the film industry.

I wonder if theres a site on the Upper West Side that would be adequate??

African American core area is more east than North East- Think East of Decatur/Stone Mtn and south to Clayton and Henry Counties.

Lilburn/ Snellville just north of there arguably comprise a healthy population of hockey fans but the Forsythe Co/Alpharetta location makes it hard for for a weeknight game. When i played in HS schools like Brookwood , South/North Gwinnett, Collins Hill, Dacula all had solid teams .

The North Eastern ITP/ Briarcliff and North Druid Hills rd area has alot of people who work in Decatur/ Emory/CDC area, who fit the NHL’s demo like a glove. Decent amount of transplants. I grew up around here and anecdotally there was a decent contingent of thrashers fans. Forsythe County/ Alpharetta makes it very hard to make it to a weeknight game from here

Buckhead/ Brookhaven would be about a 45 min drive up 400

East Cobb- which I always associated as a big hockey area (Walton ,Lassiter, Pope always had good teams and former home to Parkaire-RIP) is pretty far from
Alpharetta/ Forsythe too

Hopefully the North Pt Mall site is selected as I think Forysthe county is untenable for about half the fanbase

With the way Atlanta is growing, South Forsyth County might seem like Sandy Springs in another decade. These people have to go somewhere and we’re running out of land around the perimeter.

Its not just that NY has a lot of people, its that they have a lot of people that like hockey and pro sports in general. People who shill for Atlanta keep ignoring the impact of college sports on the pro teams. When you have SEC football and ACC basketball so strong in the region, that makes it harder for pro sports teams to gain a foothold, especially in a sport that's new.

Expansion Atlanta United has the highest attendance in the MLS.

We’ve always heard that this is a college sports town, and yeah, most people’s top team is likely to be their college football team. But there’s enough attention and money to go around.

Edit: And it doesn’t hurt that college sports mostly aren’t here. If I want to go see an SEC football game, I’ve got to plan that ahead. If it’s a braves game, you could ask me day-of. The two don’t really compete for me.

 

[Voight]

the ownership didn’t want to pay the billion dollar expansion fee . That’s the jist of it.

Source? AFAIK at no point did Bettman offer them an expansion team.

 

[Voight]

Atlanta's Metro Area is larger than SLC, Portland, QC, and Hamilton combined,

there is you reason

Houston's only shot a team are the Fertitta's who won't pay the expansion fee and have shown no interest in a NHL Team

Atlanta's wealth, growth, size and diversity are extremely attractive to the NHL. Want to get more brown and black people into hockey? Want to ensure the NHL doesn't lose steam to the MLS in the next 20 years ? Get more brown and black people into hockey.

Atlanta is "Black Hollywood". We have arguably the largest core populace of affluent and upper middle class blacks in North America- the best way to get a more diverse player and fan base is to ice a competitive team in Atlanta

I presume you mean interest in buying one? Cause Fertitta has said previously he'd like to bring an NHL team to the city, I agree they won't pay the expansion fee but if Bettman gave him permission to buy and relocate a team (probably never going to happen) to Houston I think he'd be all in.

 

[aqib]

Have the Oilers ever gone 11 straight years with only one playoff appearance and no playoff wins, all while surrounded by many other competing options for the fans' disposable dollars? You can't possibly be comparing Edmonton, which has a legendary Stanley Cup dynasty legacy, to an attendance dropoff in year two by a historically horrible expansion team that won only 14 of 82 games.

Further, because the franchise's failure was by the owners' intentional design, how can you possibly know that there aren't enough hockey fans here? If you knew anything about Atlanta demographics, of the 6+ million people here, more than half have moved here since 1990, mostly from other actual hockey markets. That was the Thrashers ultimate problem. They never tried to convert those hockey fans into fans of the Thrashers themselves. They stunk, badly, so most people who came to games came once or twice per season year to see their old hometown team beat up on the local team. That's not how you build success and longevity.

But again, ASG deliberately did not want people buying hockey tickets, so this is all academic anyway.

You realize that the last Stanley Cup title was in 1990 right? Yes they did go 11 years with only one playoff appearance. 10 straight years with no playoff appearances.

Secondly, this whole "other options thing" that southern fans talk about. I always get a bit annoyed when they act like "our city is so wonderful we have so many things to do you better work hard to get our attention" because its not like cold cities don't have other things to do. There are are 6.7 million people in the Greater Toronto Area, do you think that when there is a Leafs game that the 6.682 million that don't have tickets have nothing else to do?

The sports landscape being so crowded in Atlanta is another reason why its a stupid idea to put a team there. If people's sports dollars are already taken by the Falcons, Braves, Hawks, and college sports then you don't have enough left over for hockey.

The idea of converting fans from other places that have pre-existing loyalties is a fantasy. If you have someone from Atlanta who already likes the sport and the team shows up they will likely convert. If you have someone from New York who has been a Rangers fan all his life and a team shows up he's not going to stop being a Rangers fan. Like if the NFL expanded to Toronto, people who are from Toronto who are fans of random teams would switch over but someone who moved here from another place probably won't flip over.

As far as ASG goes here is the Thrashers attendance chart:

Atlanta Thrashers yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

A historical graph of the yearly attendance for the Atlanta Thrashers of the National Hockey League.

www.hockeydb.com

Attendance started dropping after year 1 before ASG came into the picture. The only time after year 1 that attendance was over 16K after the first year was under ASG ownership. Attendance still dropped the year after they made their one playoff run. While they didn't make the playoffs after that they weren't awful just mediocre

So this conspiracy theory that ASG was tanking for 7 straight years just doesn't hold water.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

Its not just that NY has a lot of people, its that they have a lot of people that like hockey and pro sports in general. People who shill for Atlanta keep ignoring the impact of college sports on the pro teams. When you have SEC football and ACC basketball so strong in the region, that makes it harder for pro sports teams to gain a foothold, especially in a sport that's new.

acc/college basketball is not a thing in ga

 

[AintLifeGrand]

With the way Atlanta is growing, South Forsyth County might seem like Sandy Springs in another decade. These people have to go somewhere and we’re running out of land around the perimeter.



Expansion Atlanta United has the highest attendance in the MLS.

We’ve always heard that this is a college sports town, and yeah, most people’s top team is likely to be their college football team. But there’s enough attention and money to go around.

Edit: And it doesn’t hurt that college sports mostly aren’t here. If I want to go see an SEC football game, I’ve got to plan that ahead. If it’s a braves game, you could ask me day-of. The two don’t really compete for me.

maybe Alpharetta.. Forsythe county feels like a whole nother vibe/state than Buckhead.

Im going to buy season tickets and luckily im not chained to a desk 9-5 for my job , but if I was getting up there on a tuesday night for a 7:30 puck drop would be hard af