Blue Jays Discussion: Post Non-Waiver Trade Deadline Edition

[canucksfan]

He was one of the prospects I was most interested in after the first month of the season. He raised his flyball percentage by about 10% before he got injured and has an ISO of over .100 for the first time in his career. Now it was only 20 games so obviously SSS, but it seems like he has continued where he left off.

If he can hit reasonably well that would be a huge bonus. He's great defensively.

Hernandez after a very slow start is starting to get going.

 

[Canada4Gold]

So the Mets have been switching D'Arnaud and Cabrera between 2nd and 3rd all night long tonight. With all the shifts these days when the 3rd baseman goes between the 1st and 2nd baseman we don't see an official scoring position change that the SS is now the 3rd baseman and the 2nd baseman is now the SS, and the 3rd baseman is now the 2nd baseman. During a shift a 3rd baseman can still be a 3rd baseman playing between 1st and 2nd, so why can't D'Arnaud just be a 3rd baseman playing between 1st and 2nd, and vice versa instead of the scorer having to switch the listed positions everytime?

 

[phillipmike]

Just so I'm clear...

You're arguing that casual fans care more about seeing linear pitching matchups in a series than having multiple elimination single game playoffs?

That's a bold argument, considering it flies in the face of historical TV ratings, attendance, and basically everything we know about North American sports.

I am moreso open to the argument that people would be open to more series (as more series = more games = more viewers since TV ratings are generally consistent amongst WC/DS games by market). But due to the nature of baseball, if you have 8 series that means you're going to have either 4 or 8 games per day. Which in theory sounds good, but it does absolutely nothing for TV ratings (outside of the small local market bump) since there's only so many timeslots in which you can play baseball. Having two wildcard games in primetime on separate days basically offsets adding two more games and six more teams to the playoffs from a TV perspective.

Its one of my lesser arguments but not a main one. I think anyone would straight up lying if they could remember off their head any recent tiebreak games or think of them as memorable. I just see them as another unneeded speed bump to what players really want to play in and fans really want to see... playoff games.

Like i said my main argument is i would value and prefer a series over 1 game decider.

That's another problem i have with the playoff schedule. As i Toronto fan i couldnt go to some home Toronto playoff games or see the away games because im stuck at work for the 4pm starts. Unlike the NBA and NHL who see no problems with having multiple games on at the same time the MLB feels the need to start playoff games in the day on weekdays to offset them.

 

[phillipmike]

We should skip past the Divisional and Championship series and go right to the World Series, why would we delay the World Series for that other lesser stuff that fans don't care about. Now that I think of it, lets skip the Regular season as well.

When you dont get it you dont get it. Well you propose extreme idiotic statements that you dont believe to mock mine then why stop there? Lets just have the two previous finalists play one series for the championship... lets skip the regular season... dumb.

I say get rid of tiebreaker games (keep in my 3 other sports dont have them so it isnt that farfetched) and we have Canada4Gold here jumping to the conclusion of "We should skip past the Divisional and Championship series and go right to the World Series, why would we delay the World Series for that other lesser stuff that fans don't care about."

I wonder what your response would be if i brought up adding another roster spot to the 25 man. We will have Canada4Gold here saying "why not have a 100 man roster!!!"

Really stupid argument.

My other favorite part of your post was where you suggested that Discoverer should also advocate for tiebreaker games in other sports when he's literally been doing that in replies to your own posts in this very thread.

Which would have the same flaws in the NBA/NHL/NFL as the MLB could have.

edit: Also not sure why we're all here arguing about which aces are going to be pitching wildcard games. If there's anything close to a 5 way tie to close the season, teams are going to be either pitching their normal rotations until the end of the year which could involve their best pitchers ending the season and not being available for said games, or teams scrambling to line it up for that to happen so they get that 1 extra start for their best guys to maximize their chances of actually getting to the WC game. Tiebreaker games wouldn't change that. Teams would just end up pitching the next guy up. Jays could be in a position where they end the year Happ, Estrada, Stroman, and if they were to make a WC game it could be Biagini pitching.

You havent been reading my posts. For this season i have been proposing a bigger gap between the end of the RS and the start of the playoffs like the NBA and NHL does to prevent a 4th starter going in a do or die game.

I said;

The NBA usually has a 2 day gap between the end of the RS and the start of the playoffs and the NHL had a 3 day gap for some teams. It would be even better if there were 2-3 game gap between the end of the RS to the start of the WC games to ensure both team's best pitchers are rested and ready.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=135240473&postcount=652

But read what you want and respond to what you want.

 

[canucksfan]

If Goins is injured does Gurriel get the call up?

 

[phillipmike]

If Goins is injured does Gurriel get the call up?

If the Jays think they are in it and think Goins is out for awhile they need to make a trade because they have nothing in AAA or AA at SS that should be on this team... Gurriel isnt ready to be a contributing MLB midde infielder. Cozart comes to mind but i assume he doesnt make through waivers and if he does the price could be still steep.

 

[theaub]

Its one of my lesser arguments but not a main one. I think anyone would straight up lying if they could remember off their head any recent tiebreak games or think of them as memorable. I just see them as another unneeded speed bump to what players really want to play in and fans really want to see... playoff games.

Like i said my main argument is i would value and prefer a series over 1 game decider.

I'm going to assume you're just talking about Game 163's here and not the wildcard (considering that basically every wildcard game has been immensely entertaining).

The last one was not overly entertaining (David Price winning in Texas 5-2). The other three this millennium?







I mean hell according to SI there's the seventh and eighth best games of the decade in there

 

[Eyedea]

The way Vladdy Jr is hitting, how can he not start in NH next year?

 

[phillipmike]

I'm going to assume you're just talking about Game 163's here and not the wildcard (considering that basically every wildcard game has been immensely entertaining).

The last one was not overly entertaining (David Price winning in Texas 5-2). The other three this millennium?

That is correct. If you can honestly say you remember those games of the top of your head or remember watching them from start to finish without searching them then all the power to you.

The only one i remembered was one that had the Tigers. I dont even know who they played. I thought Cleveland was in one but after i looked it up i was wrong.

I think the end of a regular season is exciting and fun to watch (Tampa getting in on the last day of the RS with Longoria's frozen rope and the Red Sox blowing a lead) but i feel tiebreakers are overkill and mostly forgotten.

 

[Discoverer]

There's no difference between a tie-breaker game and a Wild Card game.

 

[theaub]

I feel tiebreakers are overkill and mostly forgotten.

Well, there's been only four since 2000, and one since 2009. And there has only been one instance where there's been a tiebreak game to a tiebreak game.

 

[phillipmike]

There's no difference between a tie-breaker game and a Wild Card game.

There is. One is considered a regular season game and another is a playoff game. Ask David Price if he would've liked that 2013 tiebreaker winning start come up in his playoff record.

Also can come into play when discussion season records. Holliday was 2nd in RBIs in 2007 with 135 but he got the opportunity to play game 163 and had two RBIs to give him 137 over Ryan Howard's 136.

Tulo had a 4 hit game 163 that added a lot to his resume... He lost the ROY by 2 points to Braun. That game could had a lot of meaning to awards and contract incentives.

In 1995 the Mariners won game 163. They went to the playoffs with a 79-66 record and Pinella wins Manager of the year. If Pinella loses that game he misses the playoffs and likely loses the award. Instead they win and the California Angels lose and miss the playoffs their Manager Lachman has a losing record next year and gets the axe. If it were head to head they would have had the tiebreaker over Seattle 7-6. In game 163 the Mariners had Randy Johnson and the Angels didnt have their Ace Finley and used Langston lost

Anyone who doesnt like the tiebreaker and is in favor of the tiebreaker game because it is better to play the game out is a little hypocritical because they use that exact tiebreaker to determine who get home field advantage. Or if there is more than 1 team tied they use the same tiebreakers to determine which team gets to pick a first round bye or not.

 

[canucksfan]

The way Vladdy Jr is hitting, how can he not start in NH next year?

Will be interesting to see what they do next year. Personally I would start him and Bo at AA. Defense for both could be a focus though.

 

[phillipmike]

Well, there's been only four since 2000, and one since 2009. And there has only been one instance where there's been a tiebreak game to a tiebreak game.

Which is my point... although against it in years past i wasnt as vocal. I am more vocal now due to better parity and the increased chance of more than 1 tiebreak game... we will see what happens at the end of the year but this could be an every year thing now.

 

[Lightsol]

The only one i remembered was one that had the Tigers. I dont even know who they played.

Minnesota Twins.

 

[phillipmike]

Minnesota Twins.

Thanks.

 

[Discoverer]

There is. One is considered a regular season game and another is a playoff game.

*sigh*

I mean there's no actual difference. I don't care how the league defines them. I care about the game's impact and the excitement they bring among baseball fans. Would you prefer tie-breakers if they were re-classified as postseason games so the stats didn't have an impact on the regular season?

Ask David Price if he would've liked that 2013 tiebreaker winning start come up in his playoff record.

Also can come into play when discussion season records. Holliday was 2nd in RBIs in 2007 with 135 but he got the opportunity to play game 163 and had two RBIs to give him 137 over Ryan Howard's 136.

Tulo had a 4 hit game 163 that added a lot to his resume... He lost the ROY by 2 points to Braun. That game could had a lot of meaning to awards and contract incentives.

In 1995 the Mariners won game 163. They went to the playoffs with a 79-66 record and Pinella wins Manager of the year. If Pinella loses that game he misses the playoffs and likely loses the award. Instead they win and the California Angels lose and miss the playoffs their Manager Lachman has a losing record next year and gets the axe. If it were head to head they would have had the tiebreaker over Seattle 7-6. In game 163 the Mariners had Randy Johnson and the Angels didnt have their Ace Finley and used Langston lost

I don't understand how any of that is relevant. You're just listing a bunch of things that happened in tie-breaker games (or, worse, things that almost/could have happened). So... what's the actual argument here? That some things would have happened differently if they didn't play an extra game?

You know what else comes into play with season records? Rain outs that aren't made up because they have no impact on the standings. Should the league force those teams to play the games?

Anyone who doesnt like the tiebreaker and is in favor of the tiebreaker game because it is better to play the game out is a little hypocritical because they use that exact tiebreaker to determine who get home field advantage. Or if there is more than 1 team tied they use the same tiebreakers to determine which team gets to pick a first round bye or not.

Yikes. There's no way I should actually have to explain why this is a terrible, terrible argument, but just in case:

Everyone else is in favour of playing the games because it's fun and exciting. If you're going to play the games, you have to determine home-field advantage somehow, so using the tiebreaker format makes more sense than... I don't know... a coin flip the way they used to, or whatever other random option there is.

There's nothing even remotely approaching "hypocritical" about that.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

If the Jays think they are in it and think Goins is out for awhile they need to make a trade because they have nothing in AAA or AA at SS that should be on this team... Gurriel isnt ready to be a contributing MLB midde infielder. Cozart comes to mind but i assume he doesnt make through waivers and if he does the price could be still steep.

To be fair, Ryan Goins isn't a Major League Baseball player, so having Gurriel or Urena (both on the 40 man) come up wouldn't really present a material change.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

The way Vladdy Jr is hitting, how can he not start in NH next year?

I think the goal should be 450 PA's in Double-A in 2018, which would mean they should start there, as long they're healthy.

All bets are off after that.

 

[zeke]

vladdy should get a september callup.

but yeah both he and bo should start in AA next year.

 

[Discoverer]

vladdy should get a september callup.

but yeah both he and bo should start in AA next year.

This year? That would be kind of silly. Fun, obviously, but silly.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/summer-top-100-prospects/

Vlad at 7, Alford at 33, Bo at 44.

 

[zeke]

This year? That would be kind of silly. Fun, obviously, but silly.

I'm looking for downsides and I can't find'em.

 

[Woodman19]

I'm looking for downsides and I can't find'em.

Only one I can think of is there is no need to add him to the 40 man yet and unless he's going to be in the majors next year I wouldn't add him to the 40 man.

 

[Discoverer]

I'm looking for downsides and I can't find'em.

He still hasn't shown much power in Dunedin, and his 3B defense is still questionable. Let him work on that kind of thing for now.

Right now, Dunedin would be a playoff team, so he'll likely be playing into September anyway.

Most importantly, though, there are some fringe prospects who are close to the majors that the team will have to decide what to do with next year, so if they're going to shuffle guys around to make room on the 40-man, they would be better off adding guys like Fields or Lopes to get a better look and see if they think they can be real depth pieces in 2018. Hell, even Jansen.

I'm actually struggling to find an upside.