Post-Game Talk: Poop

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Yeah, the 5v5 argument is a bit too general for my liking.

The issues they're having are more specific and I think, go something like this:

On Offense:
We are generating more shots, but we are not crashing the net. Hunting rebounds, getting dirty, goal mouth goals. Several examples last night of us having possession in the offensive zone and the players without the puck were trying to get open for an east west pass downlow as opposed to positioning themselves for a screen/tip/rebound. We need some second chance goals. We need to get inside the blue paint. Our D and our Fs are not in sync about how to generate 5v5 offense. Shots from teh point with no one in front is a goalie's dream. Too many of our shots are that variety. And I don't really see Foxy or any other D taking those slightly slower shots from the point that are meant for deflections. And far too often the blasts from the point are happening with little to no screens. Pucks are going wide, hitting goalies in the chest and when they do hit the pads, those rebounds without any traffic are being kicked to the corners. The only line that attacked the center of the ice at 5v5 consistently was the Kid Line. And honestly, I thought the 3rd line with Vesey, Goody and Blais was doing an okay job at generating given their general lack of skill.

NZ play
Our counterattack is non-existent. We are ceding too much space in the neutral zone. And thus all of our 5v5 attack starts from behind our own net. We have the skill to be a counterattacking team. And I am starting to wonder if a different 5v5 system ought to be tried where we clog up the neutral zone and counter. Our forwards have not done a great job at creating scoring chances off the cycle. Almost all of our best chances are off the rush. If that's the case, then we need to be a counterattacking team. We could use the extra space counterattacking provides. Right now, our "half-court offense" often creates possession, but generates few high danger chances and NO second chances.

Gosh, could you imagine, being a trap team with Shesty in net? Counter attacking with our offense? Tiring out other teams who can't get through the NZ against us? I don't care if it's boring. Especially since we have such elite players, we could dominate most teams with a counterattack approach.

Turnovers
Because we are letting teams enter our zone pretty easily, we are forced to go 200 to get scoring chances. And we are often playing too loose or too soft. And we have been making lots of mistakes with our puck management. Either turning pucks over at the blue lines or making soft plays to get pucks out. This is what keeps eating us alive. It's not that the other team scores all the time on these mistakes, but it leads to really good chances, long shifts where our D are stuck in their own zone defending, especially later in games. Happened too much against the isles.

Boardwork
The top line isn't working at all 5v5. got trapped in our own zone too much the last two games. And the few chances we are getting at 5v5 with that line are off the rush. the 2nd line was generating far more at 5v5 but again, everything to the outside. The third line with Vesey, Goody and Blais were at times the only line being successful at the style of play we're attempting at even strength. Either we need to switch the lines up, or we need to tweak our approach to how we generate offense at even strength. Our style in the offensive zone is far too east west mixed with lets take more shots and it's making life too easy for opposing goalies who rarely have their eyes taken away and almost never have to deal with a rebound. Our only goals in the past 2 games were from east west plays off of rushes. Just not good enough. And yesterday, our best chances were individual rushes. That speaks to a system that's either not in place or the players are not on the same page.
Great point on the NZ. It's been terrible. We cede all the space up to our dots and allow the team to do what ever they want. Even when there's backcheckers and we out number them.

If we're going counter-attack, might as well get Trotz. Maybe he would open it up a bit with the talent we have.

Just like puck support our puck management has been bad like you've said. When there isn't definitive structure, players do not know where to go or what to do. It's stretch pass, bang off the boarcs or turnover. It needs to be systematic. Our defense, far too often, have no where to go with the puck. With the forwards well out of the picture.

I think it's both. Since there is a 'loose system' in place, players are not on the same page. There needs to be certain demands from each skater. Coming back to X's and O's and we just do not have it. There's too much 'read and react' which slows us down considerably. The whole point of practice is for it to become second nature. In whatever sport your playing, if you're thinking, you're moving/acting slow.
 
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Semantics? That makes no sense. It changes nothing I said.
Having gone to hundreds of games, I'm fairly confident that I can judge how well they play just as competently on TV as in person. They outplayed the Isles. It's subjective, you can disagree, but your OPINION is not some gold standard. hahaha.
The fact that they got a point in those games doesn't mean they didn't lose them. The "Well they got a point" is loser talk. If that's the standard we're striving for then they've already lost this season.

They might have put up a lot of shots on the Islanders but they were in no way impressive in any part of their game last night. They got shutout too. I don't care how many shots you put up, you get shutout out then you very decisively do NOT deserve to win. You, in fact, deserve to lose. That's how that works. You sound like Gallant last night. "I thought we played a great game." Any game you get shutout in is embarrassing.
 
The fact that they got a point in those games doesn't mean they didn't lose them. The "Well they got a point" is loser talk. If that's the standard we're striving for then they've already lost this season.

They might have put up a lot of shots on the Islanders but they were in no way impressive in any part of their game last night. They got shutout too. I don't care how many shots you put up, you get shutout out then you very decisively do NOT deserve to win. You, in fact, deserve to lose. That's how that works. You sound like Gallant last night. "I thought we played a great game." Any game you get shutout in is embarrassing.
Yeah, I didn't say they didn't lose the games, I said they picked up two points in their four losses. That's factual, not semantics. And it matters since points are the number one thing that determines your place in the standings.
By your logic, if you don't win, you don't deserve to win. That's basically your premise. And it's objectively supportable, but then why have the discussion? Or do you have a subjective set of criteria by which you can judge whether, IN YOUR OPINION, they deserved to win a game they lost, I suspect THAT is the case. Guess what? We all have our opinions. Mine was not that they played "great"... I said they outplayed the Isles. I'm not alone in that assessment. My Isles fan friends were saying the same.
I don't embarrass. Sorry.
 
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Yeah, I didn't say they didn't lose the games, I said they picked up two points in their four losses. That's factual, not semantics. And it matters since points are the number one thing that determines your place in the standings.
By your logic, if you don't win, you don't deserve to win. That's basically your premise. And it's objectively supportable, but then why have the discussion? Or do you have a subjective set of criteria by which you can judge whether, IN YOUR OPINION, they deserved to win a game they lost, I suspect THAT is the case. Guess what? We all have our opinions. Mine was not that they played "great"... I said they outplayed the Isles. I'm not alone in that assessment. My Isles fan friends were saying the same.
I don't embarrass. Sorry.
The team that wins is the team that deserves to win. I know they hand out loser points for getting to OT but they don't hand them out for "deserved to win."

The "they picked up points" was you trying to minimize how crappy this team has played, by trying to completely ignore the fact that they have not had a regulation win in over a week and a half, and that is a major issue. They have a -9 goal differential in that span and have scored only 5 goals across 4 games. But hey, they picked up some loser points along the way! Certainly that means they are going in the right direction - right?

If they truly outplayed the Islanders, they certainly would have scored at least once. But they didn't, they got shutout.
 
Also also, I think one of the biggest problems continues to be that we have Kreider and Zibanejad absolutely glued together and they SUCK together.

They might be a couple off the ice but they have zero chemistry on it. The more time passes since trading Buchnevich, the more you realize that KZB worked because they had chemistry with Buchnevich.
That's not quite true, Kreider-Zibanejad-Fast, and Kreider-Zibanejad-Zucc were all very successful lines when they were put together. Undoubtedly Buch was a huge part of that line and team and trading him was a terrible mistake. Problem is Kreider isn't the same player he used to be doing the little things to keep plays alive, forechecking, winning battles, and he isn't the threat he used to be off the rush.

Zibanejad isn't a playdriver at this stage of his career. For someone who is a supposed to be a top line center I would venture to guess he's one of the worst at creating offense in the offensive zone which is where you would expect to see "chemistry" shine. As much as I've liked Kakko's game these two need a high-end distributor to allow Zibanejad to be the guy who is finding soft areas and looking to rip pucks and Kreider needs to be more effective on the walls and winning pucks. If they are gonna be successful that is the formula.
 
Why does this team always look tired..... it's tiring
Do they look tired or is that just what people say when the team is struggling to score? I think it's more of the latter. They put up 40+ shots on back to back nights, they didn't look tired to me. Maybe they ran out of steam after the 3rd goal but before that they carried the play.
 
The team that wins is the team that deserves to win. I know they hand out loser points for getting to OT but they don't hand them out for "deserved to win."

The "they picked up points" was you trying to minimize how crappy this team has played, by trying to completely ignore the fact that they have not had a regulation win in over a week and a half, and that is a major issue. They have a -9 goal differential in that span and have scored only 5 goals across 4 games. But hey, they picked up some loser points along the way! Certainly that means they are going in the right direction - right?

If they truly outplayed the Islanders, they certainly would have scored at least once. But they didn't, they got shutout.
They give out "loser points" to differentiate a win in OT or Shootout from a tie. Or were you not watching hockey in the days of the point apiece tie games in regular season? The extra point is a "winner point," the single point is a point for the tie. See this IS kind of a semantics argument, loser point vs winner point, but my take is the reality of how we got to where we are as far as how points are awarded.
I was putting their play and the seriousness of the situation in perspective. They played crappy the first two losses, they played better the last two.
They outplayed the Isles. You are just doing a version of "if lose you never deserve to win" just using "scoring once" as an arbitrary made up criteria. You're entitled to your subjective take of course, just don't expect it to be universally accepted.
 
That's not quite true, Kreider-Zibanejad-Fast, and Kreider-Zibanejad-Zucc were all very successful lines when they were put together. Undoubtedly Buch was a huge part of that line and team and trading him was a terrible mistake. Problem is Kreider isn't the same player he used to be doing the little things to keep plays alive, forechecking, winning battles, and he isn't the threat he used to be off the rush.

Zibanejad isn't a playdriver at this stage of his career. For someone who is a supposed to be a top line center I would venture to guess he's one of the worst at creating offense in the offensive zone which is where you would expect to see "chemistry" shine. As much as I've liked Kakko's game these two need a high-end distributor to allow Zibanejad to be the guy who is finding soft areas and looking to rip pucks and Kreider needs to be more effective on the walls and winning pucks. If they are gonna be successful that is the formula.

People don't want to hear it but Zibanejad is far closer to the end of his usefulness than the beginning. That 8 year deal is gonna be ugly at some point.
 
So Schenider still sucks.

But maybe that's ok. We let Miller just suck playing big minutes for longer than anyone realizes and then he just got good.

Meanwhile, babying the shit out of Lafreniere and Kakko hasn't developed them.

Throw him in the water and he has to swim.

There's nothing else to do. We have no cap space to add anyone. Overpay for a rental at the deadline? To do what? Win one playoff round? Hard pass.

Other than bringing up Robertson there are no moves to make. Who has more upside, Schneider or Hajek? It's Schneider.

Play him till his legs fall off.

It's the same thing with Kravtsov. Like, what do people want? To bench him so we can call up Johnny Brodzinski? So we can move Ryan Carpenter or Jimmy Vesey up in the lineup?

Just play him. Top 6, top 9, who cares? Who cares about "earning it." We are too thin to be demanding guys earn it. You have to play VK in a spot where he can learn on the job and that's not the fourth line and it's not the press box. Occasional message sending benchings are ok.
 
They give out "loser points" to differentiate a win in OT or Shootout from a tie. Or were you not watching hockey in the days of the point apiece tie games in regular season? The extra point is a "winner point," the single point is a point for the tie. See this IS kind of a semantics argument, loser point vs winner point, but my take is the reality of how we got to where we are as far as how points are awarded.
I was putting their play and the seriousness of the situation in perspective. They played crappy the first two losses, they played better the last two.
They outplayed the Isles. You are just doing a version of "if lose you never deserve to win" just using "scoring once" as an arbitrary made up criteria. You're entitled to your subjective take of course, just don't expect it to be universally accepted.
If they had truly outplayed him, it would have been reflected on the score sheet. But it wasn't, right?
 
It's actually not much to think about.

The overall game has improved. The defense continues to get better and it's not a surprise that we upped our possession game with Lafreniere and Kakko in the top six - despite their offensive frustrations, they drive play. Kakko always did.

On the other hand, the team with more goals wins. This offense has massive holes at even strength. They have for awhile tbh. They can't afford for the PP to hit a skid.

A minority of posters, @DanielBrassard in particular, have been preaching that the main issue is we actually don't have enough skill, and he's right.

Kakko and Lafreniere being Blake Coleman and Ryan Callahan, and Kravtsov being Marcel Hossa, isn't gonna be enough.
Ahem
 
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If they had truly outplayed him, it would have been reflected on the score sheet. But it wasn't, right?
So you are back to "NEVER deserving to win a game you lose," then? Okay. That's not a conversation for you I guess. But remember this when the NYR win a game that you want to say they didn't deserve to win... can't have it both ways. I can freely admit when NYR win a game they are outplayed in. Happened a LOT at the beginning of last year. So I feel okay talking about games like the Isles game as ones they were the better team in.
 
People keep naming these other teams that have zero issues producing 5v5,. We are not comparable imo

The issue isn't so much as the result but how we actually play/execute. I really do not see the style we play being effect. I HOPE I AM WRONG. I do not want to be right in this case. I just dont see it though. It's an outdated take on hockey. It may win some game in the regular season.. Maybe some individual effots can secure a playoff round or two... but until they show to me they can consistently produce 5v5, ESPECIALLY in the Playoffs... I just have a really hard time buying it.

I think we have the roster to win cups and find long term success. I do not believe in our system/coaching. Once again, I hope Turk proves me wrong.

p.s. - making the playoffs and winning a series isn't proving me wrong. I'm talking about winning the whole thing.

The alternative to it being a coaching issue is that it's a talent issue (which it also is, to a degree, but we should be better than this with the talent we have).

If our talent is only this good and it's not a coaching issue, then we have real problems, cause coaching can't fix a talent issue this bad.

Therefore I really hope it's a coaching issue.
 
People don't want to hear it but Zibanejad is far closer to the end of his usefulness than the beginning. That 8 year deal is gonna be ugly at some point.
He will be a useful player through most if not all of the contract. He just won’t be $8.5M dollar useful for all of it.
 
I don't think they've been bad 5x5, it's been their special teams that's let them down these past few games. They had 85 shots on goal the last two games and one of the beat writers posted they outchanced Isles 2-1 in high danger chances last night. They will turn this around.

You have to be able to score more than 3 goals in 3 games at 5v5 though.
 
They have definitely been better 5v5, compared to last season. It's not even close.

I just see the same issues year after year. I still see major flaws in our approach and consistency.. Does it work against the better teams? Can we win 16 games in the postseason? That's where my doubt lies.

The analytics are far better, but the uptick in analytics and possession haven't resulted in an uptick in pucks in the net, which it usually does correspond with.

One of the reasons for that is bad puck luck, but another is poor system and/or a lack of skilled finishing.

While I like watching the Rangers win every night, the pragmatist in me certainly wants to see them continue moving towards winning hockey rather than just riding hot goaltending and a hot PP to a historic and unrepeatable season that doesn't result in a Cup win.

If moving towards winning hockey upsets the apple cart of their hot PP and the goals dry up for the time being, so be it, at least we know what we have to fix next. More forward talent needed is one of them.

There's only one team that does every season and the rest are failures.

Where the natives get a little restless and reject this argument is that for some teams, it's been 80+ years and there is only one Cup.

Sure in any given season you can say "it was a success cause they overachieved," even though they didn't win the Cup, but that treatment gets a little stale when that's all you can ever say about a team.

At some point you have to say getting to the second round or third round doesn't mean anything anymore unless you ALSO get a Cup or two one of these years.
 
You have to be able to score more than 3 goals in 3 games at 5v5 though.
Of course. But for as bad as they've looked at times, they still generated enough quality chances to score more than 3 goals. And if they continue that trajectory, things will probably even out over the course of the season.

Where the natives get a little restless and reject this argument is that for some teams, it's been 80+ years and there is only one Cup.

Sure in any given season you can say "it was a success cause they overachieved," even though they didn't win the Cup, but that treatment gets a little stale when that's all you can ever say about a team.

At some point you have to say getting to the second round or third round doesn't mean anything anymore unless you ALSO get a Cup or two one of these years.
It took Colorado and Tampa 11 and 13 seasons to win. These things take times
 
People don't want to hear it but Zibanejad is far closer to the end of his usefulness than the beginning. That 8 year deal is gonna be ugly at some point.
I don't know if I'd go that far, I guess technically it's true but I'm with you on the contract and I made no bones about that last offseason and which direction I would have gone. He's obviously one of the better shooters in the league especially on the PP and has his strengths but he's not the ideal #1 center for a team that's a cup contender by any means in my eyes.
 
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Do they look tired or is that just what people say when the team is struggling to score? I think it's more of the latter. They put up 40+ shots on back to back nights, they didn't look tired to me. Maybe they ran out of steam after the 3rd goal but before that they carried the play.
They look tired as in not competing hard for loose pucks imo, peeling off and making a lot of mental mistakes.

The only players I've seen engaged are Kakko, Panarin and Tro. A lot of coasting puck watching everywhere else.
 
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Even Webster is laughing at us. The absolute state of this team. SAD!
Nah...but I think Zuccarello wouldn't mind a reunion, his veteran leadership could help.

Kreider was at Zucc's wedding this summer, bonds are still tight.
 
So you are back to "NEVER deserving to win a game you lose," then? Okay. That's not a conversation for you I guess. But remember this when the NYR win a game that you want to say they didn't deserve to win... can't have it both ways. I can freely admit when NYR win a game they are outplayed in. Happened a LOT at the beginning of last year. So I feel okay talking about games like the Isles game as ones they were the better team in.
Hey you know what, that’s fair. But my main point has always been the team that wins is the team that deserved to win. I remember reading a comment from a Pens beatwriter after last years series saying the Penguins deserved to win. They didnt because they lost.

However, I don’t think its wrong or disingenuous to point out a team didn’t play well even if they won, for example, the Anaheim game. You could see the issues there even though it was essentially a decisive victory
 
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