And it wasn't Copp's fault or initiation. Chevy was not offering over 2 mil, nor long term ( unless he signed under $2 mil). Copp is worth more than Pionk or Demelo easily, and MPerreault, too.
Player Discussion: PLD
- Thread starter Hunter368
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Right now both Pionk and Demelo are worth way more than Copp unless he learns to play as a top 4 D.
A few successful games and suddenly Copp is a star....
I guess the "My Way or the Highway" attitude would be a little easier to swallow if the Jets had won a Cup in the past 4 years. It's a bit of a tougher sell when all "My Way" has to show for itself is two playoff series wins in 9 seasons...
tbcwpg
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My point is that the "My Way or the Highway" attitude is not unique to Winnipeg and no one complains that Crosby and Malkin set the tone in Pittsburgh because they won. Culture and fit are a huge part of any group, professional and otherwise, and sometimes people can have opposite methods and attitudes (as Laine and Wheeler/Scheifele obviously did) and be stubborn about it.
The issue is, when I see posts about how the captains pushed Laine out of the team, they don't really say what should've been done to placate Laine other than giving him everything he wanted, all the time. That creates group animosity. It's a no win situation. I think Dubois is going to fit better than Laine with the Jets culture and the team will be more successful going forward.
I think PoMo mentioned in a recent presser that he talked to Copp about playing RW, or maybe it was Copp who mentioned it? Either way, I think you see Stats move down to the 3rd line eventually. Maybe Copp at first. But it'll be interesting to see whose getting that last top 6 spot between the two. You got an older UFA whose shown no loyalty to the team, and a younger RFA whose emerging as an offensive guy who developed his defensive game first which is rare. His arbitration didn't go well, but hasn't closed the door on a future here either. I think that opportunity will tell us a lot about how the team feels about Copp moving forward. Even if we do move on from Copp this summer, I think keeping him in the top 6 if he's continuing to produce bodes well for us as asset management, weather that be he's broken out and seen as a top 6 guy, or significantly bosting his trade value. No way PLD isn't slotted on the 2nd line, no matter how well that line is playing currently. If in game adjustments are needed, its a line PoMo can revert to if needed.
Agreed. I may be looking into things too much, but its hard not to take PoMo's comments on Perfetti as a dig at Laine. I think PLD will fit in seamlessly with the core group which is favorable for us to retain him long term. Hopefully he continues to produce and develop into a ppg guy or more.
Hunter368
RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
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StumpyTown
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I don't think Maurice should break up the Ehlers-Stastny-Copp line as long as they are as productive as we've seen the last couple games. You don't break up chemistry like that until you have to. A really great welcome to Winnipeg and a way to get Scheif and Wheels going would maybe be nice to see Scheif-PLD-Wheels as the first line for a game or two. Two centres who can change in and out on the fly during play could make that a truly fearsome line. Moving Connor down to play with Lowry and Perrault would be a pretty impressive third line.
Long term, however, I think the Jets have to play both Scheif and PLD at centre, but not until that Stastny line goes south for a stretch. At that point I'd like to see this as the top 9:
Connor-Scheif-Wheels
Ehlers-PLD-Stastny
Copp-Lowry-Perreault
Long term, however, I think the Jets have to play both Scheif and PLD at centre, but not until that Stastny line goes south for a stretch. At that point I'd like to see this as the top 9:
Connor-Scheif-Wheels
Ehlers-PLD-Stastny
Copp-Lowry-Perreault
If the culture of the group is chasing away young, high-end talent and has nothing to show for it in terms of success, then I'm not sure we should just shrug our shoulders because everyone does it. Winnipeg has a hard enough time attracting talent without a culture that can't accommodate a cocky teenage goalscoring phenom.
Even if Phil Kessel was chased out of Pittsburgh because of not fitting into the culture, at least they have a culture that's proven to win Stanley Cups (although they won 66% of their Crosby-era Cups with Kessel playing a big role, so I dunno how much that culture was a part of the winning). What have Wheeler, Scheifele and Maurice won? 2 playoff series since 2011. Ironically, it seems that Wheeler was traded out of Boston because he didn't fit into their culture...and then they promptly went on to win a Cup...while Wheeler went on to put up big individual numbers leading mostly terrible hockey teams for the next decade.
The locker room culture being aided and abetted by Paul Maurice and his vet-coddling only makes things worse. Laine saw nothing was ever going to change for him here because TNSE's Loyalty Program guarantees Wheeler runs the room until 2024, and Maurice is the coach until he retires.
I kind of think this lineup wastes Schief, Stastny, Copp, and Perreault. Schief needs someone (Ehlers) to help him drive play, Stastny can anchor a line as a center, Copp can drive a line and bring up its defensive numbers, and Perreault is playing well and can make plays for other shooters.
I'd prefer something close to:
Copp - Schief - Ehlers
Connor - PLD - Wheeler
Harkins - Stastny - Vesalainen
Perreault - Lowry - Appleton
Or something similar. Copp and Ehlers will help line 1 vs top matchups and boost Schief's production. PLD will *hopefully* drive line 2 enough to make good use of Connor's scoring. Stastny can offer solidity to a line to serve as a jumping off point for newer players to show their talents and score VS softer matchups (can always swap Vesa / Apples / Lewis). And that is a very good 3rd line right now so it would be a beastly 4th.
This is also a lineup that separates enough of Maurice' 'room leaders' and leads to saner TOI.
tbcwpg
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But the culture of the group isn't chasing away young, high-end talent. 24 year old Kyle Connor has committed until 2026. 24 year old Nikolaj Ehlers has committed until 2025. Connor Hellebuyck was 25 when he signed a 6 year extension. Josh Morrissey is 25 now and has committed long-term. These players were not their current ages when they re-signed - Connor was 23, Ehlers was 22, Morrissey was 24.
Also check out the ages of the top 6. Wheeler is the oldest at 34, Scheifele is 27, Connor is 24, Ehlers is 24, Stastny is 36 but is likely to be bumped down by a 22 year old C, Copp is 26.
The Jets are in the bottom third, or one of the 10 youngest teams by average age in the NHL. Young players are committing long-term and contributing at high levels. "Vet coddling" comes from playing some experienced guys over rookies, not because young players are being "held back" once they're on the team.
I'm not sure where you got that Wheeler was traded out of Boston because he didn't fit into their culture. Even if that were true, we're now 10 years on so it's moving into the range of not really being relevant.
What did Laine want to change for him here? Play top line minutes? He did last season - people will try to diminish this because "he was only there because Little was hurt" - but he played top line minutes last season, and was demonstrably LESS effective in the offensive zone than CSW has been. He was in his preferred spot on the PP. So the question still is - what did he want to change? The only conclusion I can draw is that Laine wanted to be the unquestionably number 1 player on the Jets and felt that just by scoring goals, he deserved that. It doesn't matter that the analytics show that he is, to quote the Athletic's stats guru Dom Luszczyszyn, "an extreme liability on defence" and "one of the league's worst defensive players". It doesn't matter that he can score goals but do nothing else on his own. No, the idea from Laine is "I have a really good shot and score goals so we should just build the team around me and do whatever it takes to make me happy, who cares about everyone else".
This idea that Wheeler and Scheifele are "pushing out young players" is demonstrably false. We'll see how Dubois fits in but I think he'll get along just fine and I think the team is far better with Dubois than Laine.
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It hurts to see Laine go (especially if he goes on to score 50+ elsewhere) but it's not like Jets were a powerhouse team with him anyways? I know a big part of that falls on our inability to ice a quality D, but centre depth can play as big role in tilting the ice in our favor and there arent many young centres in the league that can shore up our centre position as well as PLD. I mean the Pens won back-to-back cups with a D-core who's only player I can name is Letang (and even he was out during their 2017 run)
I guess I just don't foresee goal-scoring being much of an issue for the Jets now or in the future even without Laine, so it makes a lot of sense to use our assets to balance out our lineup to optimize our ability to roll four lines.
My only leaning point to other opinion is that both Ehlers & Connor are lesser "need the spot-light cocky personal attention matters" type young player personalities. All the demotions/relegations to very little or no top ppl time for Ehlers over 5 years and rarely even full 2nd-line minutes ( until much more recently) have not pushed him to complaining in the media or pouting publicly. Likewise with Connor, early in his start. He has been given full optimum linemates/ icetime and positioning to succeed, which he has continually earned more and more.
If either, or both were more cocky and "all about me1st and then the team" types, friction with Scheifele and Wheeler would be much more prevalent, don ' t kid yourself.
Both Wheels and Scheif's took great offence to Laine public decrying of Bryan Little's poor help/ production with Laine and Ehlers. Leadership addressing yes, but there was more to it than that.
Anyhow, Laine is "yesterday and soon to be long yesterdays ago". Excited to see how, where PLD fits and grows and produces in the organization. And ultimately teammates reaction and acceptance and growing him, ( especially including the leadership group).
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tbcwpg
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There's always going to be friction between "cocky, me first" types with anyone, because they will inevitably come into conflict with anyone they come across - they will eventually put themselves first at the expense of everyone else. That's not really proving anything - the only way to placate those types of people is to put them first, which is exactly what I'm arguing against happening. In a team environment, you have to have some degree of acceptance that sometimes the needs of the team are ahead of yourself, and people have varying levels of acceptance of that.
So of course, if Ehlers and Connor were more "me first" type players, then yes, there would obviously be more friction. I think players like that ultimately hurt teams they are part of.
Haringoth
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Trouba - Left for his wife's career
Armia - Was a trade, not a chasing for Christ's sake
Petan - Cause he did so well given another opportunity
Beaulieu - Is still on the team and beloved by Wheeler
Hayes - Was always a rental
Stafford - Traded
Frolik - Free agency loss
Harrison - lol
Ladd - We made off like bandits
Setoguchi - lol
Well he did a piss poor job chasing Beaulieu away!Kane
Trouba
Armia
Petan
Beaulieu
Hayes
Stafford
Frolik
Fraser
Harrison
Ladd
Setoguchi
Howard Chuck
Registered User
I’m trying to make a concerted effort to not participate or even read posts about the ‘culture’ in the dressing room.
It almost ruined my enjoyment of the team and their games. Now that Laine is gone, I’m using that as a jumping off point.
Just going to enjoy the team.
It almost ruined my enjoyment of the team and their games. Now that Laine is gone, I’m using that as a jumping off point.
Just going to enjoy the team.
There's considerable evidence that other highly talented young players have fit in fine with the Jets. Recently, Connor signed a long term deal while most young stars were angling for shorter second contracts.
Well he did a piss poor job chasing Beaulieu away!
Given he's already got a black eye and stitches on his face and he's still getting into scraps at any opportunity, I'd say the guy doesn't get chased off easy..or if he does he comes straight back for another round.
Maybe 26 just got bored and said f it you can stay...
Agree that KC and Nik seem to be less alpha than some teammates (a good thing, given the competition) but I suspect that any NHL locker room is going to be chock-full of me-first players -- that's who they've been for much of their careers, and that's who it makes sense to be from a career/earnings perspective. Maybe the difference between me-first and team-first is less an indicator of moral character (how often did we see terms like "entitled" or "spoiled brat" or "crybaby" or even "millennial" crop up in the Laine for PLD saga?) and more a question of a player's specific needs/wants being met or not at a given point in a career.
Laine may have been a me-first player for the Jets; maybe he won't be for the Jackets. I can well imagine Scheifele being less of a team player with a prolonged demotion to the 3rd or 4th line -- how team-first are 55's long shifts and weak defensive play? And Wheeler might be less of a team player once plucked from the 1st line to hold down a mentoring role on a kids' line without PP time, and Helle for sure is less of a team player while watching Broissoit coast to the lion's share of starts.
Maybe it's easy for fans to be too romantic about team first-ness, or put too much weight on it in terms of coaching decisions on who plays where and for how long. Investment banks are full of me-firsters who are there as long as they're making rain, and they and the banks prosper. I feel like much of what passes for coaching at the pro level is channelling all that alpha behaviour into the direction of winning games, often by making it clear that player needs/wants and team needs can coincide, and then everyone wins. Hopefully it works, but a fair bit of it seems like myth-making, especially in the world we live in now.
Guardian17
Strong & Free
That's the part about all this culture stuff that drives me nuts. Hellebuyck, Ehlers, Connor, Scheifele, Morrissey all signed long term contracts. Beaulieu, Sbisa, Brossoit re-signed as UFAs. Stastny came back after he went chasing dollars, although I don't know if he had a say this time. For every one player who wanted out there's probably two that want to stay.
Agree.
Connor, Scheifele, Ehlers, and Morrissey have committed to the team long term. They have bought into the culture. Perhaps Laine looked at the team, his draft position, and felt pressure to make it “his team”, more so than “our team”, as a young player wanting to achieve success. Not saying he’s selfish, just wanting to be in the best position to help lead the team. That ego is important to be the best, but seems counter to the team culture the Jets are building.
It was interesting to hear PoMo talk about Perfetti. Not having an ego. Wanting to be a sponge and learn from others. Understanding he has much to learn but wants to learn from others. It I didn’t know better, I would think that was a subtle chirp at Laine. Either way, I think Perfetti is smart enough to read the culture and learn from vets, before demanding he plays on the 1st line with better players. Dubois might want to practice that as well. If they do, they will fit in just fine.
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