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Player Discussion: Liljegren Is Back

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zeke said:
OK so then I reiterate - Brodie, Muzzin, Giordano have a defensive focus and are excellent defensively.
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I agree... and Brodie and Giordano are also excellent puck movers.. as are Mo, Sandin, and Liljegren. We've got a very good puck moving team. We don't have many of your traditional defensive defenseman, who are stay at home, net clearing, punishing D... my whole point, was some people think that is how you win... but it's a balance.. maybe we need more physicality.. but then, I don't think Colorado had more physicality in their top 4, and they won. How you view our D, depends on what you think a D needs to have.
 
Fogelhund said:
I agree... and Brodie and Giordano are also excellent puck movers.. as are Mo, Sandin, and Liljegren. We've got a very good puck moving team. We don't have many of your traditional defensive defenseman, who are stay at home, net clearing, punishing D... my whole point, was some people think that is how you win... but it's a balance.. maybe we need more physicality.. but then, I don't think Colorado had more physicality in their top 4, and they won. How you view our D, depends on what you think a D needs to have.
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I don't think it's a fair comparison if you're leaving out Erik Johnson and Jack Johnson who are both massive and nasty. I don't buy evaluating toughness on hits per 60 or whatever. I buy it on how many defencemen a team has that I wouldn't want to skate into the corners against.
 
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zeke said:
It's top 5 in the league. We have four guys who have been top-pair quality dmen their entire careers, and 2 more kids with top pair upside. And then a 7th who's been a solid #4 dman for a top team for a few years now.
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Lol what?!?! On what planet?!
You think the leafs have 4 top pair Dmen?! Four?!?! Seriously….
And you think, And I’m assuming you mean Rasmusn and Tim have top pair upside?!!

This is insane - I’m sure even leafs fan will back me up.

Please tell who you’re 4 top pair Dmen are. I want their names.
 
zeke said:
Go around the league and see how many dcorps you think you can describe having a top-4 of four guys you just described as a #1, #2, #2-3, and #3.
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Zeke my good man. Age is catching up, too many minutes will hurt them in the regular season. They cannot be out of gas at playoff time. We need Sandin and Lili to get significant minutes to develop and be ready when playoffs hit.
I like Gio and TJ but the clock is ticking
 
NewEraGM said:
Lol what?!?! On what planet?!
You think the leafs have 4 top pair Dmen?! Four?!?! Seriously….
And you think, And I’m assuming you mean Rasmusn and Tim have top pair upside?!!

This is insane - I’m sure even leafs fan will back me up.

Please tell who you’re 4 top pair Dmen are. I want their names.
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Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, and Giordano have all been top pair quality dmen their entire careers, for every team they've ever played for, most of them very good teams.

Granted, Gio is now aging out of that role.

Niagara Bill said:
Zeke my good man. Age is catching up, too many minutes will hurt them in the regular season. They cannot be out of gas at playoff time. We need Sandin and Lili to get significant minutes to develop and be ready when playoffs hit.
I like Gio and TJ but the clock is ticking
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Muzzin, Brodie, Gio were definitely not out of gas these past playoffs.
 
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zeke said:
Go around the league and see how many dcorps you think you can describe having a top-4 of four guys you just described as a #1, #2, #2-3, and #3.
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I accept the challenge.

Colorado:
#1 Makar (best d in league by large margin)
#1 Toews (>Rielly)
#2/3 Byram (> Giordano)
#2/3 Girard (= Giordano)

Tampa Bay:
#1 Hedman (2nd best d in league)
#1/2 Sergachev
#3 Cernak (= Muzzin)
#4 Cole

Nashville:
#1 Josi (3rd best d in league)
#2 Ekholm (> Brodie)
#2 McDonagh (> Brodie)
#4 Carrier (good #4)

Carolina:
#1 Slavin (> Rielly)
#1/2 Burns
#2 Pesce (< Brodie, but better than Gio)
#3/4 Skjei

Calgary:
#1 Weegar (< Rielly)
#1/2 Andersson
#2 Hanifin (> Brodie)
#2 Tanev (> Brodie)

Boston:
#1 McAvoy (4th best D in league)
#2 Lindholm (< Brodie)
#3 Gryzelcyk (= Muzzin)
#3 Carlo (< Muzzin)

They're easily top 10, probably top 7.

Unless you're Calgary it's pretty hard to have a top-4 D corpse that's top-5 in the league when your top d is only an average #1, if that.
 
zeke said:
Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, and Giordano have all been top pair quality dmen their entire careers, for every team they've ever played for, most of them very good teams.

Granted, Gio is now aging out of that role.
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Ok glad we got one concession. It went from 4 top pair Dmen, now we are down to 3. Progress….Gio is bottom pair at this point.

As for Muzzin and Brodie, no chance they is a top pair Dman. They are second pair all day long and every body knows it.

Reilly is truly the only top pair Dmen and I wouldn’t even have him in the top 10 Dman in the league so to say leafs have a top 5 D overall, without having a top 10 D is outrageous…especially when the rest of the group is good, but far from great.

Dmen who are better than Reilly:
Hedman, Seider, Ekblad, Fox, Makar, Carlson, Josi, Hughes, Toews, Letang

Right there you have 10 that are clearly ahead and then Reilly is in the next group of McAvoy, Theodore, Doughty, Werenski, Jones, Parayko, etc
 
NewEraGM said:
Ok glad we got one concession. It went from 4 top pair Dmen, now we are down to 3. Progress….Gio is bottom pair at this point.
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there's been no concession. you just can't read.
NewEraGM said:
As for Muzzin and Brodie, no chance they is a top pair Dman. They are second pair all day long and every body knows it.
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They have been top pair dmen their entire careers, and dominated Tampa's top liners as the top matchup shutdown pair in the most recent playoffs.

NewEraGM said:
Reilly is truly the only top pair Dmen and I wouldn’t even have him in the top 10 Dman in the league so to say leafs have a top 5 D overall, without having a top 10 D is outrageous…especially when the rest of the group is good, but far from great.

Dmen who are better than Reilly:
Hedman, Seider, Ekblad, Fox, Makar, Carlson, Josi, Hughes, Toews, Letang

Right there you have 10 that are clearly ahead and then Reilly is in the next group of McAvoy, Theodore, Doughty, Werenski, Jones, Parayko, etc
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yes, Rielly is a solid #1 dman.

of course, top pair dmen include both #1 and #2 dmen.
 
123offtheglass said:
I accept the challenge.

Colorado:
#1 Makar (best d in league by large margin)
#1 Toews (>Rielly)
#2/3 Byram (> Giordano)
#2/3 Girard (= Giordano)

Tampa Bay:
#1 Hedman (2nd best d in league)
#1/2 Sergachev
#3 Cernak (= Muzzin)
#4 Cole

Nashville:
#1 Josi (3rd best d in league)
#2 Ekholm (> Brodie)
#2 McDonagh (> Brodie)
#4 Carrier (good #4)

Carolina:
#1 Slavin (> Rielly)
#1/2 Burns
#2 Pesce (< Brodie, but better than Gio)
#3/4 Skjei

Calgary:
#1 Weegar (< Rielly)
#1/2 Andersson
#2 Hanifin (> Brodie)
#2 Tanev (> Brodie)

Boston:
#1 McAvoy (4th best D in league)
#2 Lindholm (< Brodie)
#3 Gryzelcyk (= Muzzin)
#3 Carlo (< Muzzin)

They're easily top 10, probably top 7.

Unless you're Calgary it's pretty hard to have a top-4 D corpse that's top-5 in the league when your top d is only an average #1, if that.
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I think you're stretching on a bunch of those guys. Especially guys like Carlo, Skjei, Cole who have never been close to top pair quality in their careers and have only been top 4 guys by default. But also guys like Ekholm and McDonagh who really aren't any differet than guys like Muzzin and Brodie. You're also giving lots and lots of credit to a kid like Byram who did well in a very sheltered role, much like our 2 kids did.

But that's fine - you've come up with 6 dcorps that have top-4s comparable or better. Now how many of those have a bottom pair that's as talented and performed as well as Sandin-Lilly did last year?
 
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This news sucks.

Liljegren is one of the Leafs that I was the most interested to see.

Just means more Holl, the Leaf I’m the least interested to see….. :(
 
zeke said:
Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, and Giordano have all been top pair quality dmen their entire careers, for every team they've ever played for, most of them very good teams.

Granted, Gio is now aging out of that role.



Muzzin, Brodie, Gio were definitely not out of gas these past playoffs.
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We lost..they could have been better...55 flippin years, we need to do everything to win. We need them to be 10% better not 10% worse.
 
No idea why people are fighting so hard against the notion that the Leafs do indeed have one of the better, deeper D-cores in the league that has been let down by untimely shoddy goaltending.

It's almost like there is a narrative at play here and in every other thread.
 
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zeke said:
I think you're stretching on a bunch of those guys. Especially guys like Carlo, Skjei, Cole who have never been close to top pair quality in their careers and have only been top 4 guys by default. But also guys like Ekholm and McDonagh who really aren't any differet than guys like Muzzin and Brodie. You're also giving lots and lots of credit to a kid like Byram who did well in a very sheltered role, much like our 2 kids did.

But that's fine - you've come up with 6 dcorps that have top-4s comparable or better. Now how many of those have a bottom pair that's as talented and performed as well as Sandin-Lilly did last year?
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Possibly. It does start to become a lot tighter when you get into the mid #2-#3.

Of those teams, zero. Although I'd maybe take 1 year of Zadorov & Klington over Sandin & Liljegren.

When it comes to comparing the Leafs D to the elite, they have a very strong bottom pair & #7, but the biggest difference maker for me is just how good their #1D is compared to Rielly.
 
Sorry that Lilly is out. I like the kid. I had hernia surgery at the start of the year and if he’s playing in the NHL in 6 weeks he’s a very fast healer.
 
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Felix the Cat Potvin said:
I don't think it's a fair comparison if you're leaving out Erik Johnson and Jack Johnson who are both massive and nasty. I don't buy evaluating toughness on hits per 60 or whatever. I buy it on how many defencemen a team has that I wouldn't want to skate into the corners against.
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Nah? How important is it to include a D man who only gets on average 11 minutes of ice time a game? The premise being, having physical guys on your fourth line, or bottom pairings, isn't going to be the difference makers. You need physicality higher up the lineup.
 
Erik and Jack johnson are nasty? LOL

I guess Holl and Rielly are ubernasty.
 
6 weeks isn't terrible but still not great. Dubas said early mid November as a return for Liljegren
 
Sucks to hear about this, when I was hoping he would finally be able to get some momentum to develop the talent he couldn’t show in his draft year due to mono.

From what everyone says about missing training, hopefully it’s not going to be an uphill climb for him this year. He had potential to be that top 4 right shot d we need him to be.
 
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