GWT: PL Matchweek Catch-Up into (mostly) MW18 & MW19

[Havre]

I see the Mou honeymoon phase is already over?

Hardly the first game this season that ended that way - 5-6th time in the league already.

Did we ever have a honeymoon by the way?

In any case hard to argue that we are any worse now than in the last 6 months with Pochettino.

All a bit absurd really. Spurs are now at least competing in most "big games". No team will ever win all of those so..... but this season the team has for whatever reason completely stopped playing against Newcastle (still a bit unlucky), West Ham, Crystal Palace and Fulham. It is mindboggling. Could have included Wolverhampton as well, but maybe not as bad as the others. WH got a decent team, but you should never give away 3-0. The three others are fairly "weak" teams which should never be allowed to get back in to the game again (even if the goal against Newcastle was very unlucky and a bit random - Spurs still stopped playing). You would think that part was easier to fix than all the things the team has actually improved on.

Didn't like Mourinho's comments after the game. Focusing on missed chances and bad marking. All correct of course, but that doesn't explain why you just give away all the initiative - and completely stop playing yourself. I don't care much if you allow the opposition to control possession in areas that are not dangerous, but then you at least got to try to punish them when you win the ball. You can always concede a random goal (Spurs should know better than any other team at the moment) - so you got to try making it 2-0. Fulham are not getting back from 2-0. Mourinho deserves a lot of criticism for not having been able to improve the team in that aspect.

 

[AB13]

Yeah, it is pathetic for Mourinho to try and play everyone behind the ball at 1-0 up for half a game against a relegation level team. Embarassing.

Bus Parker 1-1 Scott Parker

 

[Havre]

That I believe is a misunderstanding of what Mourinho "wants". It fits the narrative around Mourinho of course, but really nothing to suggest that is what he "wants". Not that it makes it any better that he "wants" something else, but is unable to get the players to do so. When that happens game after game it clearly falls on the manager and not the players.

 

[hatterson]

Did we ever have a honeymoon by the way?

Spurs spent more time at the top of the table under Jose than in the previous decade combined. Seems kinda honeymoonish.

That I believe is a misunderstanding of what Mourinho "wants". It fits the narrative around Mourinho of course, but really nothing to suggest that is what he "wants". Not that it makes it any better that he "wants" something else, but is unable to get the players to do so. When that happens game after game it clearly falls on the manager and not the players.

He might say he doesn’t want that, and he might even believe it. But it’s what he coaches his teams to do, at the very least indirectly.

He tells them that when they get a lead, they shouldn’t be pushing forward near as much, to make sure the don’t expose themselves defensively. The midfield drops deeper, things become flatter, and it’s far harder to just control the play by routinely passing it around the outside. They don’t press the opposition nearly as much, either up high or even in the middle third, and that lets teams get back into games they shouldn’t.

 

[Havre]

Spurs spent more time at the top of the table under Jose than in the previous decade combined. Seems kinda honeymoonish.



He might say he doesn’t want that, and he might even believe it. But it’s what he coaches his teams to do, at the very least indirectly.

He tells them that when they get a lead, they shouldn’t be pushing forward near as much, to make sure the don’t expose themselves defensively. The midfield drops deeper, things become flatter, and it’s far harder to just control the play by routinely passing it around the outside. They don’t press the opposition nearly as much, either up high or even in the middle third, and that lets teams get back into games they shouldn’t.

On the first part I think most would say that was a bit random. Not because Spurs were performing brilliantly (even if the away wins to Southampton and Utd were solid).

Ultimately Mourinho is responsible. I'm not going to disagree with that. But to me it is unlikely to be a "tactical" decision. We all like to ridicule Mourinho, but he isn't that stupid.

When a midfield player receives the ball he might try to turn in a tight spot or he can go for a safe backward pass. Evaluating when it is the right thing to do the first or the latter isn't that easy. The manager will dictate on average how much risk you are taking. To me I believe that is more the problem than Mourinho asking players to completely change their position - falling deeper.

It is not like Mourinho has a history of asking RM, Chelsea, Inter etc. to just give away initiative to bottom 3 clubs just because you are 1-0 up. Spurs didn't do that in the mentioned games against Southampton and Utd either. Doesn't change the fact that he is now failing to get the team to play right, but I would argue that is most likely more down to "incompetence" (as in how to breed confidence into your players) rather than him wanting team like Fulham and Crystal Palace to complete dictate the game against Spurs.

Will definitely be interesting to see how this goes going forward. Giving away wins against "weaker" teams in 1/3 of the games you play can't last. Then he will be sacked come summer.

 

[robertmac43]

Partey on the bench tonight!

 

[hatterson]

On the first part I think most would say that was a bit random. Not because Spurs were performing brilliantly (even if the away wins to Southampton and Utd were solid).

Ultimately Mourinho is responsible. I'm not going to disagree with that. But to me it is unlikely to be a "tactical" decision. We all like to ridicule Mourinho, but he isn't that stupid.

When a midfield player receives the ball he might try to turn in a tight spot or he can go for a safe backward pass. Evaluating when it is the right thing to do the first or the latter isn't that easy. The manager will dictate on average how much risk you are taking. To me I believe that is more the problem than Mourinho asking players to completely change their position - falling deeper.

It is not like Mourinho has a history of asking RM, Chelsea, Inter etc. to just give away initiative to bottom 3 clubs just because you are 1-0 up. Spurs didn't do that in the mentioned games against Southampton and Utd either. Doesn't change the fact that he is now failing to get the team to play right, but I would argue that is most likely more down to "incompetence" (as in how to breed confidence into your players) rather than him wanting team like Fulham and Crystal Palace to complete dictate the game against Spurs.

Will definitely be interesting to see how this goes going forward. Giving away wins against "weaker" teams in 1/3 of the games you play can't last. Then he will be sacked come summer.

I don’t think he’s telling them to drop deep per se, but that’s just a natural reaction of how they’re coached to press forward less and take fewer risks. He did the same thing plenty at United.

In general, at United and now at Spurs, Jose has been more inclined to set up his team overall to sit a bit deeper (all the time) and hit with pace. When that’s your default, and then you enter a phase where you press less and take fewer risks, it results in your position getting deeper and deeper on average.

I would agree it’s not necessarily something he’s intentionally trying to make happen, but it’s a direct result of how he coaches his squad. And that’s not just passed on 15-20 games with Spurs, it’s based on also watching 100 or whatever of him at United, where largely the same things happened.

It’s like training players to hit every shot as hard as they call all the time and then bemoaning that they aren’t very accurate with their shooting. One is a natural consequence of the other except in very, very rare cases.

Regarding the Southampton and United games, Jose also has a habit of doing different things against quality opposition (at the time Southampton were doing very well) sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Also of note in the United game was that United basically gifted Spurs a couple goals and then went down to 10 men, so it’s really hard to say what would have happened if it played out remotely like a normal game and how Spurs would have responded to being up 3-1 against a full strength United squad.

 

[Havre]

I don’t think he’s telling them to drop deep per se, but that’s just a natural reaction of how they’re coached to press forward less and take fewer risks. He did the same thing plenty at United.

In general, at United and now at Spurs, Jose has been more inclined to set up his team overall to sit a bit deeper (all the time) and hit with pace. When that’s your default, and then you enter a phase where you press less and take fewer risks, it results in your position getting deeper and deeper on average.

I would agree it’s not necessarily something he’s intentionally trying to make happen, but it’s a direct result of how he coaches his squad. And that’s not just passed on 15-20 games with Spurs, it’s based on also watching 100 or whatever of him at United, where largely the same things happened.

It’s like training players to hit every shot as hard as they call all the time and then bemoaning that they aren’t very accurate with their shooting. One is a natural consequence of the other except in very, very rare cases.

Regarding the Southampton and United games, Jose also has a habit of doing different things against quality opposition (at the time Southampton were doing very well) sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Also of note in the United game was that United basically gifted Spurs a couple goals and then went down to 10 men, so it’s really hard to say what would have happened if it played out remotely like a normal game and how Spurs would have responded to being up 3-1 against a full strength United squad.

I'm not going to disagree with much there. Generally speaking I think your "understanding" of how Spurs play is very very good for someone not being a Spursfan (obviously - who am I to say etc.).

He is a pragmatic manager of course. I do believe he thinks he has got more fire power with Spurs than he had with the Utd-squad. So I believe he would "allow" the team to be more attacking minded.

As for the Southampton and United games my point was rather the way they played - not how successful they were (even if they won of course).

I am not blind. I do believe there is a risk that this ends up like it did at United. But I don't believe that is some sort of certainty just because it is "Mourinho". Still Mourinho is mainly constructive and reasonable in interviews. His body language is always a bit "depressing", but it hasn't changed for the worse like it did at United. And we haven't seen anything close to the "respect" press-conference. I can't fault the effort either. Which is usually a strong signal - when you start to question the effort of the players you know something is up.

Now it is up to him. As stated earlier I'm almost certain he will get fired come summer if this continues against the kind of teams like Fulham.

 

[robertmac43]

Arsenal have not beaten CP in 4 Prem games. Hopefully we can change that today

 

[AB13]

The balance of the team suffers so much with Tierney out. Much worse offensively and defensively when he isn’t playing.

 

[AB13]

Biggest thing for Arsenal in the second half is sustained pressure, Arsenal have the central compactness in defensive transition with the double pivot but need to counterpress well and be secure technically on top of that, otherwise we really won’t score.

 

[hatterson]

Honestly that kick by Luiz isn't super far from VAR having a look at it. He's making zero attempt at the ball and just absolutely kicking Zaha in the back of the legs.

 

[AB13]

As I suspected. Smith-Rowe is capable as a creator against the bottom teams but as you start to get to mid-table he needs quality to supplement him.
I think after this game if the current dysfunction continues to lean on him we'll start to see a tired version of the youngster, not the shiny card version we've seen so far.
Bad systems can appear to be a drain, even on senior players.

 

[robertmac43]

This game has become more and more scrappy.

I hate Palace, get a late winner please.

 

[SSF]

That 2nd half stunk

 

[AB13]

38 Premier League games in charge for Mikel Arteta now.
57 points.
The only 38 game season where Arsenal have earned fewer was 2019-20 (56).

 

[BKIslandersFan]

This game has become more and more scrappy.

I hate Palace, get a late winner please.

Same. There are bigger clubs in Championship that belongs in Premier League over them. Even with Leeds promoted.

 

[Savant]

 

[hatterson]

Yea but that’s just because Arteta has been playing him wrong and didn’t give him 12 straight games to get into a groove.

 

[Blender]

This is even worse than I thought, and I know he's been pretty awful.

 

[YNWA14]

He's still better than Mane. This is the Klopp vs. Arteta effect.

 

[Savant]

He's still better than Mane. This is the Klopp vs. Arteta effect.

Note to self: put player who is transferring out in the summer on penalty kicks.

 

[S E P H]

The sooner CP get relegated, the better for everyone. They're a rubbish club, the new Stoke City who practically lose to 97% of their matches yet win the home and away against the relegation level clubs. It's pathetic.

Arsenal didn't look bad at all, if this would've been another day we should score two easily. Just some tough luck and some bad decisions in the final third; like AMN deciding to shoot right at the goalkeeper instead of conducting a brilliant through ball to Saka. Also I hope we don't play Luiz again, the bloke just doesn't track opposing players good enough, CP's best chances came when he was giving their forwards so much space compared to Holding. Please, put Gabriel back in, Partey for Ceballos, and maybe Martinelli for Auba who looks like he needs a bit of a break and mental reset.

 

[Savant]

You know, I honestly wouldn’t mind Crystal Palace if they were managed by (almost) anyone rather than Hodgson.

 

[S E P H]

The problem with Pepe is that he has Son's talent, but the desire of a rotten tomato. For as good as Son is, I would debate he's taken the next step above due to his desire in wanting to become a better player. Whereas, Pepe always looks like he has terrible body language out there...not Ozil-level bad, but pretty dang close to it. His eyelids look half open every time he plays and never looks involved that it might not necessarily be the player, but the change in culture between the countries effecting him (a poor fit from the start). I watched him in Ligue 1 before he moved to Arsenal and he was never this bad, maybe some of it was unsustainable in how he scored in France, but zero plays created is Benteke bad and he's one of the worst players I've ever watched.