Prospect Info: Pittsburgh Penguins Prospects Thread: 2023-2024 Edition

[Gurglesons]

But... I mean... that's kinda what's been happening?

I really don't have an agenda, here. I'm basing it off precedent.

Not to be contentious but the people saying "they'll play these guys in the top six/third line and get them lots of minutes and it'll be great for their development" are the ones preaching fantasy. Not me. Puus KINDA got a chance this past year but his usage was all over the place. DOC got in there, too. I'll grant that. But it took them like... years of spot use and being yo-yo'd up and down from the farm.

I think young players need not just coaching up but also stability and a distinct understanding of their role and some leeway to make mistakes along with confidence and trust from the staff. I don't see that currently being a thing at the NHL level, here.

DOC got a chance once Sullivan was basically forced to do it.

 

[Jacob]

If he’s like me then the higher stress of the NHL will make him dry heave and have diarrhea, not good for putting on weight.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It needs to be done gradually in parallel with skating and development. If you take Yager and put him in weight room all summer with the goal of packing on 20lbs of lean muscle, you can do that but it's going to slow him down, affect his skating, affect his shot, etc. He's 20. Has plenty of time to gradually gain muscle mass and find what works best for him.

I'm actually in the camp of thinking that Yager doesn't need to necessarily need to put on 20lbs. of lean muscle to play in the NHL if the rest is there. If he's having problems holding on the puck in a scrimage, then by all means send him to wherever we can, but really the question should be about playing time against the best competition we can find.

Also, I'm of the school of thought that if you're thinking about benching young players for weeks at a time, just send them down or trade them. It's so stupid.

If he’s like me then the higher stress of the NHL will make him dry heave and have diarrhea, not good for putting on weight.

But good for getting the defender off your back.

 

[The Old Master]

There is nothing that suggests at this point that playing Yager in the NHL would "ruin his development".

Buffalo kept up Zach Benson in the NHL last year, did they ruin his development? Benson was taken 1 spot above Yager and he had 30 points in 71 games last year. His 5v5 points/60 of 1.76 was roughly equal to Rakell and Smith.

zach might be short but he's not small. he's much more physically ready for the nhl than yager.

 

[Empoleon8771]

zach might be short but he's not small. he's much more physically ready for the nhl than yager.

Benson is listed as basically the same exact size as Yager.

 

[SEALBound]

Sorry I ninja-edited to illustrate my point a little better.

I just don't agree that the current environment on the NHL club is conducive to developing young players properly. Based on this team's track record of... uh... *gestures broadly* -- I don't think I'm being negative or controversial, here. Would love to be proven wrong... having a real training camp where multiple young players win jobs of significance would be fun.

Not to mention a crucial part of any winning strategy. Young players with something to prove on ELCs are a massive advantage if you can leverage it and have a coaching staff that leans into that ethos. But that last part is a big hurdle, here IMO.

It's soooo hit or miss. You can look at Marino, Sheary, Rust, Wilson, Kuhnhackl, Jake, DOC, ZAR...and it makes you think - Hey, this staff is willing to play youth. I just can't subscribe to the "Sullivan hates youth" notion because there's plenty of evidence against it. At the same time, we do appear to be awful at player development. It seems like it's either yes or no from the start. You're either Jordan Staal or you're Spronged off the team. And obviously, under Sullivan, it wasn't always that way (2016/17 coming to mind). It just seems like, when they do get the chance, either it's yay or nay. They will work or they won't. I don't really know the last Sheary/Jake/Rust/etc where they were up and down a little bit and there was a clear notion of development. Outside of Jake, we don't have a "hey, we developed this top 6 wing". I don't really count Puustinen because I think he's benefiting greatly from a garbage-tier prospect system. He's a "Navy 10" so to speak.

I think you're spot on though in the sense that, they need to establish what they want to do with the player and then develop from there. And it just simply CAN NOT be the prototypical "he PK's and is defensively responsible...and offense, meh, we don't care". I'm both excited and nervous for Pono,Koi,Yags because I think they have good offensive potential but I worry that will be stripped from them if it's demanded they go the route of "well, you're on the 3rd line and that's a defense only line so...5min a night because you're not a defensive stalwart like my boy Matt Nieto here."

100% on your last line. I said that not long ago, I believe during the Marner discussions, that if you can look to guys like Poulin, Pono, Koivunen, and Yager to provide talent on their ELCs, it fronts you the space to go get a guy like Marner who will take up a significant portion of the cap.

Rakell-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Marner
DOC-Pono-Koivunen
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

With a guy like Bemstrom or Gruden to fill in for the bottom 6 and Yager to fill in for the top 6, you can have a playoff caliber team.

I'm actually in the camp of thinking that Yager doesn't need to necessarily need to put on 20lbs. of lean muscle to play in the NHL if the rest is there. If he's having problems holding on the puck in a scrimage, then by all means send him to wherever we can, but really the question should be about playing time against the best competition we can find.

Also, I'm of the school of thought that if you're thinking about benching young players for weeks at a time, just send them down or trade them. It's so stupid.


But good for getting the defender off your back.

Agreed. If after 2-3 seasons everyone, including Yager, say "jeez, I'm just not strong enough" then sure, hit the weight during an off-season. As is, there are plenty of guys that play well enough at his height and weight, especially at his age.

To your second sentence - yeah, that's why the AHL would be best for him.

Benson is listed as basically the same exact size as Yager.

He's 1-2" shorter depending on what roster spec you look at.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It is worth remembering that Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhakl, Jake, et al. came up almost a decade ago. It doesn't make much sense to compare that 2015-2016 season to now when it looks like an outlier that was a little under 9 years ago.

 

[The Old Master]

Benson is listed as basically the same exact size as Yager. same weight 2'' shorter.

 

[chethejet]

I watched Yager in the Memorial cup playoffs and he is a very good IQ and skill. But he is not strong enough to grind in the NHL. For 8 games yes for 80 no. He will need to mature and add strength which with S&C programs adding 10 pounds to 15 pounds in 2 years is very achievable. Writer from DK Sports as noted above mentioned Pickering added 20 pounds since the draft and is 195 or so. Now again once they get to 23 or 24 that is about it as to where they will be as to their body.

 

[Jacob]

The list seems fine to me and also probably based heavily on input from the team.

 

[Ryder71]

The list seems fine to me and also probably based heavily on input from the team.

If you listen to Dubas it isn't. And if you look at their respective bodies of work from last year it isn't. Koivunen was the key piece in the deal. Kyle talked about him quite a bit in the interviews related to that trade.

 

[Ryder71]

Here's the REAL LIST

1. Yager
2. Kovunen
3. Blomqvist
4. Pono
5. Ilyin

 

[Ryder71]

St. Ivany shouldn't be on the list because he's already playing in the NHL. Poulin is a bust!

 

[Empoleon8771]

She butchered that list, highly disappointing, but not very surprising.

I mean, she's an actual reporter who seemingly got insight from the team for her rankings. I think that's more qualified that some random person posting on here

I'm a bit surprised that she had Koivunen over Ponomarev, but I have a feeling I may be underrating Ponomarev/overrating Koivunen a bit.

 

[Ryder71]

I mean, she's an actual reporter who seemingly got insight from the team for her rankings. I think that's more qualified that some random person posting on here

I'm a bit surprised that she had Koivunen over Ponomarev, but I have a feeling I may be underrating Ponomarev/overrating Koivunen a bit.

She had Pono ahead of Koivunen.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Pens relinquished rights to Thimo Nickl and Nolan Collins today. It was the deadline to sign them to entry level contracts.

Neither is a surprise. They aren't prospects, Nickl spent all last year in Wheeling and was unremarkable. Collins has had injury issues.

 

[Ryder71]

As far as being NHL ready goes, well, that's a different order, but as far as potential and high end ability and likely to play at the NHL level my list stands.

NHL ready:

Pono and St. Ivany are obviously most NHL ready, then maybe Blomqvist, Koivunen and Yager.

If some here are convinced Poulin isn't a bust he's likely third behind Pono and StIvany. I think Poulin has some serious issues though and won't stick. But to get a cup of coffee with a few injuries, yeah I could see that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sub out St. Ivany and replace with Ilyin and that's a very good list I think.

Odd that she didn't rate the Jake Boys 1, 2 and 3 though. #Haul

 

[Ryder71]

Pens relinquished rights to Thimo Nickl and Nolan Collins today. It was the deadline to sign them to entry level contracts.

Neither is a surprise. They aren't prospects, Nickl spent all last year in Wheeling and was unremarkable. Collins has had injury issues.

Still waitin on Kyle to sign Yager, why are we still waiting? GET IT DONE, NOW!

Sub out St. Ivany and replace with Ilyin and that's a very good list I think.

Odd that she didn't rate the Jake Boys 1, 2 and 3 though. #Haul

#HUGEHAUL

 

[Rudy Russo]

I don't think St. Ivany is a prospect anymore. He looks like a decent bottom pairing D at the NHL level. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pickering spend some time in the E. He seems to be a real project. Pono's recent AHL stats don't inspire confidence, but I haven't really watched him play. What I saw of Poulin wasn't all that impressive, but he really didn't get much of a chance. We'll see.

Bottom line is our prospect pool is extremely shallow. Hopefully, we'll be able to build it up in the next few years.

It didn't help that Rutherford traded 1st round picks for both Zucker and Kappy. Both players should of gone for a 2nd round pick since Zucker was demoted to the 4th line before traded to the pens and Toronto was up against the cap.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It didn't help that Rutherford traded 1st round picks for both Zucker and Kappy. Both players should of gone for a 2nd round pick since Zucker was demoted to the 4th line before traded to the pens and Toronto was up against the cap.

You can never fault JR for doing what it takes to go out and get his guy.

It's just that uh... in latter years "his guy" was usually mediocre to flat out bad.

Reaves for a first was a real knee-slapper, too.

 

[Ryder71]

It didn't help that Rutherford traded 1st round picks for both Zucker and Kappy. Both players should of gone for a 2nd round pick since Zucker was demoted to the 4th line before traded to the pens and Toronto was up against the cap.

We're still much better off than we were before the GUENZTEL TRADE. Koivunen and Pono are nice prospects. Bunting has already paid some nice dividends. And CAR gets nothing. lol

I love it!

 

[Jacob]

It’s really a matter of how much you factor NHL-readiness over NHL upside.

St. Ivany has low upside but is extremely likely to reach his upside. Koivunen, for example, might be the exact opposite.

And under no metric would Poulin not be considered a prospect. He’s 2 years younger than St. Ivany. 1 year older than Pono.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It’s really a matter of how much you factor NHL-readiness over NHL upside.

St. Ivany has low upside but is extremely likely to reach his upside. Koivunen, for example, might be the exact opposite.

And under no metric would Poulin not be considered a prospect. He’s 2 years younger than St. Ivany. 1 year older than Pono.

Yeah this is the main reason I think Ponomarev is ranked above Koivunen. I think Ponomarev's upside is a playmaking 2-way 3C (think Alex Wennberg), while Koivunen's is a playmaking middl6-6 winger (think Jussi Jokinen). However, it also seems like Ponomarev is a lot safer of a bet to reaching that upside than Koivunen, which probably makes up for the upside difference there. It's not like Koivunen has a monstrously high upside to negate out the extra risk with him.

 

[Ryder71]

Pono conceivably would be the safer pick. Koivunen is a bit more boom or bust. I'd prefer the guy with more upside. But Pono is more NHL ready, long term I have much more confidence in Koivunen to have a bigger impact.