OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball

ImporterExporter

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Jun 18, 2013
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Trading Keller a season after signing him to a new deal feels shitty to me personally, and it does nothing to dissuade the idea that the Pirates are a cheap franchise that won’t pay anyone money to compete.

Who cares? Your post is strictly emotional and based on feelings rather than logic and facts.

Trading Keller opens up money for Skenes to be signed long term. Keller is our 3rd best P and probably below that mark by the end of the year if Chandler is who we think he is. I'm also bullish on Ortiz based on the last 2 months, if he can show being able to handle a larger workload.

I'd trade hurt feelings for Skenes being here even just 1 year beyond what we have him now for currently.

That's really the bottom line not to mention Keller is going to net a solid return, and probably better than solid if you go straight 1 for 1.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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BTW, draft lottery at 530 PM EST.

Outside shot at #1 but just hoping we don't slide.

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bigdaddyk88

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Who cares? Your post is strictly emotional and based on feelings rather than logic and facts.

Trading Keller opens up money for Skenes to be signed long term. Keller is our 3rd best P and probably below that mark by the end of the year if Chandler is who we think he is. I'm also bullish on Ortiz based on the last 2 months, if he can show being able to handle a larger workload.

I'd trade hurt feelings for Skenes being here even just 1 year beyond what we have him now for currently.

That's really the bottom line not to mention Keller is going to net a solid return, and probably better than solid if you go straight 1 for 1.
Jones is still developing I am even sure if he better than Ortiz.
I don’t think Skenes is going to sign
Keller is our Jack Flarrety
 

Ulf5

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I suppose he hasn't graded out well. But what we heard about Rooker is that he was unplayable in the field. We have not heard the same about Casas.

Plus we'd have plenty of control on the guy going forward. At some point, Cutch is gone. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Casas immediately becomes our best hitter if he comes here.
BoSox supposedly offered him to Seattle for either Bryce Miller or Bryan Woo and were turned down. I don't know who, if anyone, we have equivalent to either of those two.
 

BusinessGoose

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May 19, 2022
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Cutch is a free agent, so they aren't carrying him currently. Also, I am not sure how he would be handcuffing anything even if they did still have him. The Pirates have shown no inclination or ability to get anyone better at hitting than even old-ass Cutch and his 105 OPS+ from last year. The only things handcuffing the Pirates are a cheap owner and a GM who couldn't identify a hitter if he walked up to him and smacked him in the side of the head with a bat.
Him at DH does clog things

We already have multiple dudes who need hitting practice but go through wildly ineffective streaks on the field

Cutch can not play at all. And he isn't really a good DH either.

I dunno, the team is flawed. Having to keep DH open cause your misfits need to slot in there, it's a bigger problem really.

And there's zero chance he continues to play and it's NOT on the pirates, not at this point.

Just be cool to have like fielders who aren't near the Mendoza Line. Big ask, apparently.
 
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Empoleon8771

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Who cares? Your post is strictly emotional and based on feelings rather than logic and facts.

Trading Keller opens up money for Skenes to be signed long term. Keller is our 3rd best P and probably below that mark by the end of the year if Chandler is who we think he is. I'm also bullish on Ortiz based on the last 2 months, if he can show being able to handle a larger workload.

I'd trade hurt feelings for Skenes being here even just 1 year beyond what we have him now for currently.

That's really the bottom line not to mention Keller is going to net a solid return, and probably better than solid if you go straight 1 for 1.

If they're trading Keller to open up money to sign Skenes, I would be all for it. But the context of trading Keller on the last page wasn't based on that.

To me, trading Keller right now would likely not come with signing Skenes to an extension because it's the Pirates. And it also wouldn't come with adding a significant UFA because again it's the Pirates.
 

DJ Spinoza

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1) What consistency did Jones demonstrate? Surely not after he returned from injury.
2) "Overrun" with Mitch Keller - I love you man, but even if the Pirates were a playoff team, Vegas would have them as underdogs in a Keller-started game.
Sorry, I don't mean overrun in the sense of 3 pitchers who will totally dominate a la what the outrageous expectations (though obviously warranted) for Skenes will be headed into the year.

I mean that winning series will mean converting the opportunities of those pitchers and what we're able to get out of Ortiz, Chandler, Oviedo, Veteran Reclamation more often than not, but especially those pitchers.

Regarding Jones, if you just don't like him, I don't know what to say. There are reasons to be cautious and skeptical towards him, and he had some struggles in his half a dozen starts to end the year. But he bumped his innings up by about 50 and still had several very good starts by most any standard.

I will grant that consistency isn't the best adjective to throw around with him, and I also get that people don't love him on a game-to-game, I'm-watching-this-guy-and-sweating-the-Pirates-winning-or-losing-right-now type of vibe, but he has massive swing and miss stuff and even without accounting for a young player continuing to take steps forward, that translates to impact in the W-L column, especially if you can surround him with different kind of pitchers in the rotation which better allow the manager to use leverage arms as needed on days where the efficiency isn't as great as you'd want.

All in all, I really don't get the appeal of Casas for a pitching talent with as much upside as Jones. It's a mark on the Pirates and has been for years but for me it's kind of two separate problems that we can't produce any offense, even the most offense-only position of 1B, on the one hand, and using pitching depth to improve on the other. The perennial challenge of the latter route is that teams know the Pirates have few avenues to improve (since they refuse to even sign mid-level FAs) and in general, all teams are stingy with high quality young talent. Taking a swing at a high ceiling young talent like a Roman Anthony would be the perfect move, but teams don't usually want to give up that kind of player for anything.

I think we should be just about as protective as Jones, because he has the high pedigree and has already established himself in MLB. This is probably an unfair way to try and put it, because so many others also recently graduated with him, but an exercise that could help illustrate this is placing Jones on the FanGraphs top prospect list now. He graduated in the 55 tier, already a pretty high echelon for how stingy they are in terms of anything 60 or higher, and he would clearly currently be the clear #1 on the list (it's not fair to say because obviously if we re-ranked others, Merrill and Chourio would be above him easily). But I don't think any of that tier of prospect - i.e. guys like Basallo, Lawlar, Anthony, Jenkins etc - would be someone to trade for Casas, a pretty good, 1B only guy who might be able to reach 28-32 HRs if he puts a fully healthy year together.
 

Empoleon8771

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Like I said yesterday, I think trading Ortiz for Casas would make more sense than trading Jones for Casas. The Sox asked for two Jones equivalent pitchers for Casas from the Mariners and the Mariners said no, the Pirates should also say no with Jones. That said, I think Ortiz falls in that category of a guy who would have decent value and the Pirates could afford to trade. Ortiz still offers that MLB ready pitcher with moderate upside for the Sox, it's just not Jared Jones caliber upside.

You may need to add to Ortiz, but Ortiz+ for Casas makes more sense to me than Jones for Casas+. Especially with the likely inevitable Keller trade in the next 2 years.
 

DJ Spinoza

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We stayed at pick #6, which I guess is both pretty pointless and pretty fitting. The Mariners and Cardinals having much longer odds and still managing to leap frog us is kind of annoying, but hard to really feel much about just sticking to the spot we "earned", especially given teams like the Marlins and Rockies falling.

I don't know the first thing about the draft besides Holiday and a couple of vague names, and in any case it's way too early to care. I don't believe the lottery shakeup will really impact things that much with the slot system. In theory, we'll have more money to potentially leverage for an over slot than the Mariners and Cardinals would, but we are in the same comp round as them and I imagine the higher money we have from regular rounds 2-10 will be offset by them having higher slots in round 1 and also getting the 2 million boost of the comp round.

In short, I doubt we'd have much of a chance to try and bully someone down to 6, which might have been the case if a team like Boston or San Fran had jumped ahead of us.

From a quick scan, it doesn't necessarily appear that the top prospects are great for us in terms of what I'd gravitate and I imagine would be true of others too, namely college bats. Laviolette is a slugger who is usually among the first couple of names, but then I am seeing a lot of prep bats and a couple college pitchers.
 
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ChaosAgent

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Regarding Jones, if you just don't like him, I don't know what to say. There are reasons to be cautious and skeptical towards him, and he had some struggles in his half a dozen starts to end the year. But he bumped his innings up by about 50 and still had several very good starts by most any standard.
I like him. He is a superb prospect with nasty stuff, athleticism and a great demeanor. I just don't like him as much as what I perceive the market does.
Conversely, I like Ortiz more than what the market does. Probably not as much as Jones, but it's much closer for me than it is for others. I have also come around on Chandler as he seems to be getting better each year.

Overall, I also think hitting prospects > pitching prospects. Aside from freaks like Skenes, TINSTAAPP. There’s (Almost) No Such Thing As a Top Pitching Prospect

Finally, I will continue to question whether he can maintain his velocity as a starter with his slight frame. Already he missed two months for a lat strain last year. I don't know if 5'11 guys can sling it 98+ MPH 60 times a game. From purely a standpoint of injury prevention, regardless of what any stats say I'd rather have a portly dude who is 4 inches taller like Ortiz. Oh also, I don't believe he's 6'1 as mentioned earlier.
 

Ulf5

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Guess we got a lotto pick.

Cardinals having a 0.1 percent chance or whatever and getting the same speaks to itself. This is always such a dumb and random system, and watching it is even dumber. This is like the pure essence of MLB.
Let me just say how stupid this draft lottery is. I completely understand the prevention of tanking. But having not 1 but 2 winning teams picking top 5? GTFO of here. That's completely moronic and Pejorative Slured.
 

Empoleon8771

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He was dealt to Cleveland.

Yes but Cleveland doesn't need him, he was likely acquired to be flipped. That's why the tweet mentioned a third team, the Pirates may be looking to trade futures to Cleveland to get him. Cleveland has Naylor at 1B and Fry at DH, so I don't really see a spot for Horwitz.

That said, them trading Naylor and sticking Horwitz at 1B also makes a lot of sense to me. I'd be also very interested in Naylor as well.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Maybe there are more pieces, maybe I am a prospect hugger, but I do not like giving up Ortiz to get Horowitz. He has had some positive run in MLB but he really feels like a guy we are buying high on.

The only slight caveat to add immediately might be the Hague connection but still..... immediate reaction not good.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Seems like that's the full trade. I don't think Kennedy or Hartle are huge losses except in the sense that Cleveland is a dangerous team to deal pitching to.

I don't like Ortiz for Horowitz. Ortiz is someone who was important glue for the rotation. He gives you a solid quantity of innings, has flashed some big ceiling, and still is plenty young. I worry how he'll look after the Guardians pitching lab has some time with him.

You have to have quite a lot of faith that Horowitz is not a flash in the pan. This is a little bit silly to throw around, but I mean somewhat in the sense that he's a Max Muncy type profile who can break the mold of the late bloomer that's just good in brief spurts but then flames out. It's a pretty hard player type to overcome. Obviously, there are organizational connections between us and them that are even more reinforced with Hague. But still, Horowitz had a nice enough 3 months. The opportunity will be wide open in front of him because he is surely, absolutely the everyday starting first baseman.

To me, this just reinforces the fallout of not being willing to pay market prices to fill needs. Horowitz could be a great Muncy type addition that we all think is a vital contribute to a revitalized team next year. There's also a pretty plausible world where he flames out into Edward Olivarez, Bryan de la Cruz, blah blah, AAAA player land whereas Ortiz emerges as a front of rotation workhorse in Cleveland.
 

ChaosAgent

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Maybe there are more pieces, maybe I am a prospect hugger, but I do not like giving up Ortiz to get Horowitz. He has had some positive run in MLB but he really feels like a guy we are buying high on.

The only slight caveat to add immediately might be the Hague connection but still..... immediate reaction not good.

I guess in for a penny, in for a pound. I was down to trade Jones (while shipping off Hayes' salary) to get Casas, so I should like this.

It gives me the heebie jeebies that Cleveland seemingly orchestrated all of this just to get Ortiz, after he gave a dominant performance against them in September. They are a much better organization than us.

That said:
1) Horowitz profiles as a fantastic late bloomer. The guy dominated minor league baseball. He got a late start as a late round pick out of college and then he lost 2020 so he was always overage. But the stats indicate that the guy was simply better than his competition. I think he has a very high floor offensively, though I question the ceiling given the lack of power.
2) As much shit as I give Cherington, I think he recognizes that solely shopping for bats in free agency is a way to get fleeced. Now he basically just needs one hitter - either Kepler or Grichuk - and to bring Cutch back. He will however need to target an arm. I think a reunion with Quintana or Heaney is warranted. Griffin Canning also reeks of "future Pirate" as a back-end flyer.

Not for nothing - they just lost their 2nd and 3rd best pitchers in 2024. They need help in the pen again. They are heavily relying on Bednar, whose fastball was exposed last year.

As I've made very clear, I liked Luis Ortiz a lot. I don't hate this trade though.
 
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ChaosAgent

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Horwitz has put up amazing K/BB numbers at every level he's been at, albeit maybe a year older. He had an excellent AFL in 2021.

Before we traded Charles McAdoo, when things were looking especially bleak with Hayes (well they still do), Triolo and we hadn't acquired Yorke, a few of us were dreaming that he'd be this kind of late bloomer.

It's definitely a risk but just reading the stats I have a Pirates trade comp: Jason Bay.

That said, caveats galore and I would have probably traded every pitcher except Skenes/Jones/Chandler in our system before trading Ortiz. It should be lost on no one that the Guardians traded for Ortiz shortly after this game: Pirates 3-0 Guardians (Aug 31, 2024) Final Score - ESPN
 

DJ Spinoza

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I guess in for a penny, in for a pound. I was down to trade Jones (while shipping off Hayes' salary) to get Casas, so I should like this.

It gives me the heebie jeebies that Cleveland seemingly orchestrated all of this just to get Ortiz, after he gave a dominant performance against them in September. They are a much better organization than us.

That said:
1) Horowitz profiles as a fantastic late bloomer. The guy dominated minor league baseball. He got a late start as a late round pick out of college and then he lost 2020 so he was always overage. But the stats indicate that the guy was simply better than his competition. I think he has a very high floor offensively, though I question the ceiling given the lack of power.
2) As much shit as I give Cherington, I think he recognizes that solely shopping for bats in free agency is a way to get fleeced. Now he basically just needs one hitter - either Kepler or Grichuk - and to bring Cutch back. He will however need to target an arm. I think a reunion with Quintana or Heaney is warranted. Griffin Canning also reeks of "future Pirate" as a back-end flyer.

Not for nothing - they just lost their 2nd and 3rd best pitchers in 2024. They need help in the pen again. They are heavily relying on Bednar, whose fastball was exposed last year.

As I've made very clear, I liked Luis Ortiz a lot. I don't hate this trade though.
I think this is fair as an optimistic take on Horowitz that's still worried about what Cleveland will do. In fairness to Horowitz, the hit tool looks very good and he ran some pretty crazy on base numbers.

I find the value harder to assess with everything because the trade that set it up was Cleveland getting out of Gimenez's contract, a guy who has displayed a very high ceiling but whose contract looked bad for a penny pinching team like them or us.

It still seems like a net negative, though, given how valuable pitching seems to be at the moment.

Ultimately I think it's a trade that only looks a lot better when other pieces are in place and there's still impact acquired on top of Horowitz. He can be a nice OBP guy with moderate pop, but it's not the classic 1B profile and he doesn't seem to offer much defensively. Maybe part of it with Hague is thinking that there will continue to be more power to tap into, but that's all projection.

I don't think the "reasonable" Pirates targets are quite enough. Hitting on the right free agent would help out over internal options or more pure reclamation/upside guys (such as Cabbage, who I do tend to like somewhat), but we need some mashing. There's no sense in bringing him up for several obvious reasons, but adding Horowitz for the top of the lineup and then Santander to be RF/eventual DH as a masher for the middle of the order would sure go a long way towards really bolstering the offense.

And maybe there's a crazy world where Santander's few years of mashing are disvalued by some of the heavy hitters who would rather either save their money for the true premium options or just unload it on pitching. I still would imagine that a mid-range team that actually fields a real salary would pay him better than the top we'd reach in this crazy world.

While I'm saying fantastical and pointless things, I guess I'd add that losing Ortiz immediately to kinda help the offense would be softened a bit if we were indeed somehow able to pull off Sasaki. I don't really think there's anything, but I did raise an eyebrow seeing that he'd be open to smaller teams who are not historically strong as far as popular teams in Japan, plus the upside of the pitching development. I said this before in an idealistic ramble, but if the Pirates could somehow sell him by pointing to Skenes and saying we can get you to be your best here, given that he's effectively an entry level rookie who has to look towards a potential long career, the development angle isn't that insane to try and dream on.

Still, even if we wanted to blow smoke up this team's ass on pitching, maybe deservedly, other teams have outstanding pitching programs. We'd need some combination of him being persuaded by the immediately recent example of Skenes together with the possibility of being the guy who makes the Pirates a popular team in Japan and maybe throw in some weird way that he'd care about a team who doesn't have much chance to win if it were not for talented young players like Skenes or him. Besides just dreaming up nonsense, the only thing that gives me slight pause is that the Pirates have been a lot more internationally active and surprising in the past several years. Stranger things have happened.
 

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