Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?

[Ernie]

The NHL has an awesome deal where they have cities in the US paying for arenas for their teams. In exchange, the NHL is showing they will remain fiercely loyal to the cities that build arenas.

But not to the owners who lose hundreds of millions on the teams in those buildings.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

But not to the owners who lose hundreds of millions on the teams in those buildings.

The NHL is not a charity.

 

[Free Edler]

The NHL is not a charity.

..but clearly it loves cities which give it big expensive things (arenas) for free.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

We are blurring the line between speculation and fact again. Let's clarify that you speculate there was a material misrepresentations. There has been no finding of fact to support your position.

ARIZONA COMMERCIAL TORTS Interference With Contract
(Elements)

To establish this claim, plaintiff must prove:
1. [Name of plaintiff] had a contract with ;
2. [Name of defendant] knew about the contract;
3. [Name of defendant] intentionally interfered with the [name of plaintiff]’s contractual relationship with , which caused a breach or termination of that relationship;
4. [Name of defendant]’s conduct was improper; and
5. [Name of plaintiff] suffered damage caused by the breach or termination of [name of plaintiff]’s contractual relationship with .

I think COG would likely sue on the basis of the tort of interference with prospective advantageous business relations, which is a similar but broader tort than interference with contractual relations, which presupposes an existing contractual relationship.

One important element is 4) improper conduct. Some of the factors to consider in determining whether the interference that was "improper" include:

1) the nature of the actor's conduct;
2) the actor's motive;
3) the interest of the other (plaintiff) with which the actor interfered;
4) the social interest in protecting the freedom of action of the actor;
5) proximity of actor's conduct to the interference; and
6) relationship between the parties.

Some other points:

Justification. Important point when considering this tort: to determine if the interference was justified, public policy considerations must be taken into account. Justification on such grounds constitutes a primary defense to an action. For example, some judicial opinions refer to the tort as "intentional interference without justification."

Causation. The essential thing is the purpose to cause the result. If the actor does not have this primary purpose, his conduct does not subject him to liability even if it has the unintended effect of deterring the third party from dealing with the other (plaintiff).

The above are just a few points I gleaned from a v.8 of a famous text sitting in front of me: The American Law of Torts. As you can see, this is not a slam dunk case for the COG in any case (assuming they intend to sue using such tort).

GHOST

 

[Coach]

In my opinion, I believe the rate is higher than 9%, assuming anyone is interested. It's possible that no one will bite with the lawsuit potential clearly articulated, but if I may speculate, 9% wouldn't get it done or else COG might have already issued. These are the only two possibilities.

I don't believe the bonds can sell for more than 9% without going back to the CoG for another vote to approve the additional expenditure.

 

[headsigh]

Please don't take this as any sort of attack on Atlanta or the fanbase. I personally think of the 2 problem franchises, ATL should get a legit chance with a decent, committed owner. I think that the Thrashers still have a good chance at success with the proper work.

I do however take issue with the bolded part of your message.

The Oilers have been terrible for the past 4 years, had one magical run where they barely made the playoffs in 2006, and bounced between bad and mediocre before that. The team continues to sell out despite being a last place team in the league.

I think the fact that the Canadian economy has managed so well through the recession, and a change in mentality in Canadians and their wealth/ disposable income has led to not only an increase in attendance, but a big increase in merch sales. You can see the trouble Edmonton, Vancouver, Calgary and Ottawa had drawing in the mid 90's but look at it now.

I do believe in less traditional markets, success is very important in drawing fans. Dallas has shown this. Atlanta needs a good owner/ management team to grow a perennial playoff team. That will go a long ways in growing a dedicated fan base.

I think you misquoted me (I'm not billy blaze), but thanks for the input. I didn't mean it to be an attack on Edmonton or anything, more as an example that every team usually has financially down years during their down years.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

..but clearly it loves cities which give it big expensive things (arenas) for free.

OMG the league does things to try and make its franchises stronger? What criminals!

 

[Crazy_Ike]

As you can see, this is not a slam dunk case for the COG in any case (assuming they intend to sue using such tort).

Too much emphasis on "winning". Assuming they do file, the primary reason will be to flush out GWI's reasoning and get them to commit. GWI has spent too long letting a threat do the work of actually filing suit. Getting them to commit forces GWI to take an action which could have much more serious political consequences down the road, which they tried to avoid by simply using the threat instead.

 

[htpwn]

The NHL ALWAYS pulls out everything they have to keep teams where they are as long as there is some hope of a resolution at some reasonable point.

Every franchise situation throughout league existence is different and there's different levels of hope and ability of the league to help them. Learning the differences is of course a lot more difficult than believing the propaganda mouthpieces in Toronto chanting "buttman hates Canada", though.

Honestly, one mention of the fact that the NHL has done more for Phoenix then they ever did for other markets and you come out with guns blazing.

So... seeing as you fired the first shot, I'll return fire. My post, the epitome of Canadian propaganda, or so I hear. So much so that it included Hartford. Oh wait, apparently Hartford isn't a part of Canada. But fair enough, geography doesn't appear to be your strong suit so I guess I'll let that go.

I also apparently quoted some articles saying "buttman hates Canada." Hmmm... I don't recall doing that but I may have let me check... nope, definitely didn't. So making things up now too Ike?

On a serious note, I am entitled to an opinion, on a message board nonetheless. I am well aware of the situations that took place in each of the cities mentioned and I am well aware with what has occurred thus far in the Phoenix saga. If you don't like my opinion, fine but people like you and some other posters here (and we all know who they are) really need to get off their high horses. Just because you accuse people of being ignorant, directly or indirectly, doesn't mean it is true.

 

[Coach]

I'll throw my speculation into the mix. I preface this by acknowledging this is in part based on media reports that I am prepared to consider accurate. Nothing stated here, no matter how it is phrased, should be mistaken as the presentation of fact.

- The NHL is actively promoting the bond sale and it's reasonable to think they can successfully find a small handful of investors to buy the bond at a lucrative interest rate.

- It makes no difference what that interest rate is. Glendale (ie- Scruggs, 3 Council Members) have already sold themselves for this deal. They will support any amount if the result is keeping the team.

- The lawsuit against Goldwater is likely a loser. Glendale is likely aware of that. However, filing such a claim would be a significant chip to play politically. Assuming the NHL finds the investors and Glendale eats the interest, when the bill comes due and Glendale has no means to pay, Scruggs & Co. can point at Goldwater and their attempt to prevent the higher interest rate by legal action.

- Goldwater's suit for violation of Gift Clause, if filed, is also likely a loser. Goldwater is likely aware of that. However, much like Glendale, Goldwater has gone too far down the road to abandon their position. While they may never file a complaint, they are unlikely to respond to Glendale's litigation threat by surrendering.

Or in summary, the NHL will facilitate the sale of the bonds at a insane interest rate; Glendale will eat the extra cost and turn around and sue Goldwater; they'll lose the suit but use the filing to protect their political lives; Goldwater will not file a claim for Gift Clause violation.

And if I'm wrong... sue me!

Is there any money in sueing a bead salesman?

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

So who's willing to put cash on the table that CoG will actually file the suit against GWI?

I think at the end of the day, no lawsuits will be filed.

Not COG's because it's a transparent negotiating tactic.

Not GWI's because they seem to be doing enough damage by just threatening one.

 

[Confucius]

Is there any money in sueing a bead salesman?

One managed to buy Manhattan, so ya never know.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

So... seeing as you fired the first shot, I'll return fire. My post, the epitome of Canadian propaganda, or so I hear. So much so that it included Hartford. Oh wait, apparently Hartford isn't a part of Canada. But fair enough, geography doesn't appear to be your strong suit so I guess I'll let that go.

Could you indicate where I said anything about your post being the epitome of Canadian propaganda?

I also apparently quoted some articles saying "buttman hates Canada." Hmmm... I don't recall doing that but I may have let me check... nope, definitely didn't. So making things up now too Ike?

Could you indicate where I said YOU posted "buttman hates Canada"?

On a serious note, I am entitled to an opinion, on a message board nonetheless. I am well aware of the situations that took place in each of the cities mentioned and I am well aware with what has occurred thus far in the Phoenix saga. If you don't like my opinion, fine but people like you and some other posters here (and we all know who they are) really need to get off their high horses. Just because you accuse people of being ignorant, directly or indirectly, doesn't mean it is true.

/shrug

The fact remains, anyone who makes the claim that the NHL "did more for Phoenix than Winnipeg" is ignoring, probably deliberately, the fact that the situations, the risks, the options, and the ability of the league itself were completely different for those, just like they were for every other franchise situation.

And for all that is holy, learn to parse my posts better please, especially if the alternative is that you are going to be incorrectly criticizing me for geographical knowledge or falsely accusing me of making things up about you.

 

[Coach]

New Globe and Mail article.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-prayers-about-to-be-answered/article1931713/

 

[Koss]

The NHL ALWAYS pulls out everything they have to keep teams where they are as long as there is some hope of a resolution at some reasonable point.

Every franchise situation throughout league existence is different and there's different levels of hope and ability of the league to help them. Learning the differences is of course a lot more difficult than believing the propaganda mouthpieces in Toronto chanting "buttman hates Canada", though.

You're probably too young to remember how Winnipeg and Quebec were left hung out to dry. One of the biggest reasons I can't stand Bettman, moving Quebec and Winnipeg was part of the plan when he was hired to take over the league.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

New Globe and Mail article.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-prayers-about-to-be-answered/article1931713/

The lawsuit, if it is indeed ever filed, is going to take time, and it’s going to be messy, and neither time nor mess are things the NHL governors can tolerate any longer without having to again reach into their own pockets. So anywhere NHL hockey was being played this past weekend, the chatter among reporters and agents and team officials was that the announcement of the Coyotes’ relocation to Winnipeg was both inevitable and imminent.

It sounds like people in NHL circles think that it's over.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

You're probably too young to remember how Winnipeg and Quebec were left hung out to dry. One of the biggest reasons I can't stand Bettman, moving Quebec and Winnipeg was part of the plan when he was hired to take over the league.

LOL

Not only is the idea I am "too young" for anything very amusing, I guarantee you I have looked at twenty pieces of evidence for the situation of both teams for every one you have, probably just by including posts I've made on both here in the past.

Winnipeg and Quebec aren't for this thread. Be that as it may, neither team were "left hung out to dry" by the league. Period.

 

[headsigh]

It sounds like people in NHL circles think that it's over.

It just sounds like more G&M posturing. They had like a similar article in November that it would be over and the Yotes were packing their bags. For them, it's the "hometown rub", free views, and more interest so when they make similar articles they get even more hits.

 

[htpwn]

The fact remains, anyone who makes the claim that the NHL "did more for Phoenix than Winnipeg" is ignoring, probably deliberately, the fact that the situations, the risks, the options, and the ability of the league itself were completely different for those, just like they were for every other franchise situation.

And for all that is holy, learn to parse my posts better please, especially if the alternative is that you are going to be incorrectly criticizing me for geographical knowledge or falsely accusing me of making things up about you.

I took a lot of implications from your post, some of them absurd. The absurd ones were meant to be absurd, to be quite honest with you. Similarly though, you implied that I was ignorant about the Winnipeg/Quebec/Hartford/Phoenix situations. You implied that my comment was based off some nationalist agenda that I had picked up off what you perceive to be "propaganda" pieces in Canadian media.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

I took a lot of implications from your post, some of them absurd. The absurd ones were meant to be absurd, to be quite honest with you. Similarly though, you implied that I was ignorant about the Winnipeg/Quebec/Hartford/Phoenix situations. You implied that my comment was based off some nationalist agenda that I had picked up off what you perceive to be "propaganda" pieces in Canadian media.

I'm not making judgements on anyone. If you acknowledge that the situations between cities/franchises are different, then what I said doesn't apply to you. Same goes for anyone else.

If anyone thinks they are the same, and therefore believes, mistakenly, that the league could or should have done for Winnipeg what it is doing for Phoenix, then it does apply.

If anyone wants to debate whether or not they should have done more, well I'm perfectly willing to do that fight once again in the proper threads.

What DOES directly refer to you, however, was the implication the league doesn't do whatever it can to protect franchises where they are. It does. Maybe you don't personally believe what you said, but you did say it.

Oh, and I am not just "perceiving" the Canadian sports media as pushing an agenda here. We know from the bankruptcy statements themselves that they (the G&M at least) DO, for a fact.

 

[Confucius]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/are-winnipegs-nhl-prayers-about-to-be-answered/article1931713/

relocation to Winnipeg was both inevitable and imminent.

Well that ends that, if you know what I mean (He jinxed it). Wish he hadn't used the word, Immi...

 

[jamwires]

honestly, quit the ****ing bickering. None of us know how this is going to play out. If you want this kind of pointless fighting, watch Jersey Shore or some ****...

 

[Gump Hasek]

The headquarters are NY now. The only reason why the Canadian teams besides Toronto Montreal are doing well is because of the Cap and Dollar.

Yeah! None of the other Canadian teams have buildings full of fans paying high prices, nor do they have any corporate support whatsoever. [/sarcasm]

 

[Free Edler]

Well that ends that, if you know what I mean (He jinxed it). Wish he hadn't used the word, Immi...

So.. two more weeks?

 

[The Pouzar]

The fact remains, anyone who makes the claim that the NHL "did more for Phoenix than Winnipeg" is ignoring, probably deliberately, the fact that the situations, the risks, the options, and the ability of the league itself were completely different for those, just like they were for every other franchise situation.

The NHL was less inclined to save the markets in QC, WPG and HFD because they were originally WHA teams and the old guard who controlled the NHL was being punative IMO. I can't rememer where I read it but I recall that Bill Wirtz and other owners absolutely hated the WHA for what it did to their player costs.