Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?

[DeathToAllButMetal]

I think it's pretty clear that Goldwater intended to interfere with Glendale's economic relations. Regardless of how anyone phrases it, I think Glendale would in substance establish the first part of the test (if that is the test that applies in Arizona at all).

It's the second part that has me stymied. I just don't see it.

The third part is up in the air as well. I would need to see the evidence before making up my own mind.

How could it be deemed interference if the aim is to prevent breaking state law? This seems equivalent to suing the cop because he pulled you over for speeding on the way to work and then you got fired as a result of showing up late.

 

[Wham City]

$40MM of losses already? And not according to the evil Canadian media, but according to Hulsizer and reported in a Phoenix paper?



$210MM as the purchase price? Even with the $100MM from COG and the 'management fees' this looks like a bad deal for MH.

GHOST

Ya the specific numbers are certainly news, but isn't Hulsizer on the record before saying he'd pick up this year's losses?

I guess the question I would ask is why would he be leaking this now?

 

[Killion]

I can't contemplate any scenario where that is illegal, though I am open to other opinions.

To me its a bit of a gray area ABD, and touches on several other socio-political & economic realities going on in the states right now. That the GWI is a pseudo political right wing "think tank" make no mistake. The information thats been available in the public domain for quite some time now is sufficient enough for most Lawyers to determine whether or not the deal struck is legal or illegal, despite GW's constant refrain that they "still need more inf. & time to study". Thats just BS, Looking at it cynically, they could well have arrived at the conclusion that, "ya know what?, its legal, but just barely, and fact is we simply dont like it from a philosophical perspective". So rather than take it to court, they run interference with the letters to underwriters & banks, investment agencies and the like; artificially inflating the interest rates with End of Days claims, These are unelected individuals forcing their will, their ideals, on those that were duly elected by the people.

The question remains; is GW running interference & blocking the deal because its illegal or are they doing so because they simply disagree with the structure & philosophy of it; wanting to close all loopholes in the Az Constitution that the COG is about to drive a Mack Truck through, and doing so legally?. They know they cant win in court, dont want to be painted the bad guys, so have taken the fight to the stakeholders, media & public. I mean, lets face it, the breadth & depth of what Glendale is doing would be equally breathtaking in any other state, none of which even have Gift Clauses' in their Constitutions. But if it is legal, and this has been Goldwaters game all along, whats worse?. The taxpayer being screwed over by a lousy deal or the loss of governance and representation by elected officials through subterfuge by special interest groups with their own agendas?.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

If COG's lawsuit against GWI does end up being filed, I think we should name the next thread:

Phoenix XXV: Charlie Sheen vs. Goldwater Institute

 

[RAgIn]

$40MM of losses already? And not according to the evil Canadian media, but according to Hulsizer and reported in a Phoenix paper?



$210MM as the purchase price? Even with the $100MM from COG and the 'management fees' this looks like a bad deal for MH.

GHOST

One has to wonder when the NHL upped the purchase price? This week?

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

If COG's lawsuit against GWI does end up being filed, I think we should name the next thread:

Phoenix XXV: Charlie Sheen vs. Goldwater Institute

Perfect. You've got my vote.

 

[Ciao]

How could it be deemed interference if the aim is to prevent breaking state law? This seems equivalent to suing the cop because he pulled you over for speeding on the way to work and then you got fired as a result of showing up late.

I don't think it's illegal or unlawful interference, which in Ontario would be the second of three essential elements of a successful lawsuit for intentional interference with economic relations.

Beats me if the law in Arizona is at all similar. Where's Goyotes when you need him? Watching Phoenix defeat Detroit. Lucky stiff!

 

[Dave is a killer]

If COG's lawsuit against GWI does end up being filed, I think we should name the next thread:

Phoenix XXV: Charlie Sheen vs. Goldwater Institute

Lawyers Guns & Money ... come on mods, get with it

 

[PeeBee78]

$40MM of losses already? And not according to the evil Canadian media, but according to Hulsizer and reported in a Phoenix paper?



$210MM as the purchase price? Even with the $100MM from COG and the 'management fees' this looks like a bad deal for MH.

GHOST

We all have to be a bit careful....because over the course of the coming weeks I bet this team makes some of that back. I bet the selling price is still 170m and they will reconcile this at the end of the year....I doubt the loses stay at 40m as some of the games towards the end of the year + playoffs make back some of that money.

 

[GKJ]

How would things be different if they just moved the team there properly? The Suns arena was 4 years old when the Coyotes moves in - an arena not suited for hockey. How does that happen? They shouldn't have even needed a second building, the first one should have been done right if Bettman wanted to move there so badly. That has little to do with "southern expansion" because it works in Dallas just fine.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

I don't think it's illegal or unlawful interference, which in Ontario would be the second of three essential elements of a successful lawsuit for intentional interference with economic relations.

Beats me if the law in Arizona is at all similar. Where's Goyotes when you need him? Watching Phoenix defeat Detroit. Lucky stiff!

Mork, which tort are we talking about? Intentional interference with prospective business or economic advantage? If so, I googled it and here are the elements as set out in a Hawaii decision. I saw similar tests set out for other US jurisdictions:

[T]he following elements have evolved into the tort of intentional or tortious interference with prospective business advantage: (1) the existence of a valid business relationship or a prospective advantage or expectancy sufficiently definite, specific, and capable of acceptance in the sense that there is a reasonable probability of it maturing into a future economic benefit to the plaintiff; (2) knowledge of the relationship, advantage, or expectancy by the defendant; (3) a purposeful intent to interfere with the relationship, advantage, or expectancy; (4) legal causation between the act of interference and the impairment of the relationship, advantage, or expectancy; and (5) actual damages.

http://legalblog.hawaii-attorney.net/tag/commercial-litigation/

GHOST

 

[Ciao]

Mork, which tort are we talking about? Intentional interference with prospective business or economic advantage? If so, I googled it and here are some of the elements as set out in a Hawaii decision. I saw similar tests set out for other US jurisdictions:



http://legalblog.hawaii-attorney.net/tag/commercial-litigation/

GHOST

We would need someone who knows Arizona law to tells us that.

 

[Coach]

Some languages are oral only.

How do you read an oral language.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

We would need someone who knows Arizona law to tells us that.

Actually we would need someone that if familiar with Arizona tort law as it relates to the specific facts in this case if you want to get that specific.

GHOST

 

[Niagara67]

How do you read an oral language.

Make up symbols like they did for the Cree.

 

[Coach]

This isn't going to go on for years. They are going to present the evidence that GWI interfered with a business transaction, and if they can prove it even when all evidence is considering in a light favorable to GWI, then a summary judgment will be issued against GWI, and this could happen in a matter of days. If that fails, the suit may go on, but the team will move unless some large institutional investors steps up to buy the bonds very quickly, despite the risk.

Yeah sure a judge is going to read the over 1000 pages of files in a couple of days and then rule right away. I just don`t see this being possible in less than 2 weeks.

 

[RR]

$210M for a hockey team in Glendale, Arizona. I wonder how much will be too much for Hulsizer to swallow.

If the league is determined to be made whole in Glendale, it's certainly not going to give Winnipeg or any other market a discount.

That said, I can't imagine the $40M is the projected loss should the Coyotes stay. I have to assume that is a projection if it's announced in the next few days the Coyotes are leaving and the COG...wait for it...immediately shutters the Arena.

An exit announcement will eliminate the bump in attendance down the stretch; playoff gate; and concerts and other events that won't be booked. I do believe concert bookings in general are down all over the US. I know Killion will have more than that.

If it's announced next week the Coyotes are leaving, then it's possible, IMO, that the $40M figure might hold up, if it's accurate, and not just posturing.

But I doubt with Thomson's billions it will be an issue. $210M for a franchise in Winnipeg seems like a bargain to me if you consider an expansion fee might run $100M - $150M.

 

[Killion]

Lawyers Guns & Money ... come on mods, get with it

Im digginit. Warren Zevon. Excitable Boy.

We would need someone who knows Arizona law to tells us that.

You apparently completely missed the discussion we had on this in the last thread Mork. For shame. You'll find CF, GSC2k2 & others opining on the subject. I initially threw it out there as I thought GW's letters (links to copies a couple of miles back as well, Im just plain lazy) crossed the line into tortious interference; and, I also wanted to know why the COG rather than standing frozen in the headlights didnt take the fight to GW & seek injunctive relief and slam the door with Enforceable Opinions, right on up to the Supremes if neccessary. Now, its likely too little, too late, and quite possibly completely disingenuous posturing.

 

[danishh]

210M seems like a very convenient number for hulsizer, seeing as it shows that glendale is providing less than half the purchase price.

100/170 = 59%
100/210 = 48%


my guess would be that that number is out there for posturing only.

 

[RAgIn]

What if come Monday there is no lawsuit. That all this leaked information was just a ploy by the COG in order for them to see the reaction of the GWI. A scare tactic if you will. It might be a longshot, but after 2 plus years, anything can happen.

Plus, how did Burnside and ESPN scoop up this information before the locals at AzCentral? Mind boggling. Perhaps, the NHL leaked it to them?

 

[pucka lucka]

If the league is determined to be made whole in Glendale, it's certainly not going to give Winnipeg or any other market a discount.

That said, I can't imagine the $40M is the projected loss should the Coyotes stay. I have to assume that is a projection if it's announced in the next few days the Coyotes are leaving and the COG...wait for it...immediately shutters the Arena.

An exit announcement will eliminate the bump in attendance down the stretch; playoff gate; and concerts and other events that won't be booked. I do believe concert bookings in general are down all over the US. I know Killion will have more than that.

If it's announced next week the Coyotes are leaving, then it's possible, IMO, that the $40M figure might hold up, if it's accurate, and not just posturing.

But I doubt with Thomson's billions it will be an issue. $210M for a franchise in Winnipeg seems like a bargain to me if you consider an expansion fee might run $100M - $150M.

Oh yeah, with all that bargaining power the NHL has right now. We demand you pay $40m more or we'll stay here an lose it ourselves. They got 'em right where they want them.

 

[RR]

Oh yeah, with all that bargaining power the NHL has right now. We demand you pay $40m more or we'll stay here an lose it ourselves. They got 'em right where they want them.

You saying TNSE would tell the NHL to go **** themselves if the price was $210M? Seriously? Are you saying that?

Because if you are, a franchise in Winnipeg is DOA.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

I don't know anything about the law of Arizona, but in Ontario a successful action for intentional interference with economic relations would require proof of three essential elements: (i) intent to injure the plaintiff's economic relations; (ii) interference by illegal or unlawful means; and (iii) resulting economic harm.

Worry about winning later. The point of suing GWI is to make them put forward a decision and the reasoning for it to COG as soon as possible, as GWI has made it clear they aren't going to bother working with anyone else's schedule. Both sides will spend all their time posturing in the meantime which is uninteresting, though so many people here seem to lap it up like it's gospel.

If suing (or even just threatening it) is what needs to happen to get GWI to finally show its cards then so be it.

Oh yeah, with all that bargaining power the NHL has right now. We demand you pay $40m more or we'll stay here an lose it ourselves. They got 'em right where they want them.

The league covered itself for this season before it ever started. These people who think the league is somehow "raising the purchase price of a declining asset" have around twenty thousand posts of catching up to do.

How would things be different if they just moved the team there properly? The Suns arena was 4 years old when the Coyotes moves in - an arena not suited for hockey. How does that happen? They shouldn't have even needed a second building, the first one should have been done right if Bettman wanted to move there so badly. That has little to do with "southern expansion" because it works in Dallas just fine.

Oh ffs. The league doesn't move teams that have approved ownership. The owner does, and it's up to the owner to negotiate these things. America West was acknowledged as unsuitable for hockey from the start, but the owners of the time thought they could make a go of it in Glendale. It has nothing to do with this imaginary belief that "Bettman wanted to move there so badly". Good god.

You want to see REAL legal trouble? Watch a league try to stop someone without an arena deal from moving.

Once again, the commissioner of the NHL is not a farking omnipotent god, and especially wasn't one in 1996!

 

[RR]

So, through 31 home games this year (not including the Prague game, of course), here's what's been reported:

2010-11 attendance is up 6.35% (2009-10 ATD 10,927; 2010-11 ATD 11,621).

And we know from the posts here that the report of current losses being $40M to date includes (to quote the article that referred to the $40M loss-to-date) that the, "number of free tickets doled out this season has dropped by 36 percent from last year, according to the league statistics. The team has sold an average of 1,188 more paid tickets per game this season.

"That has helped the franchise earn 15 percent more money per ticket without raising ticket prices."

So, unless we're only cherry-picking the data reported, that $40M must be the projected combined loss if attendance doesn't get the bump it did last year; the Coyotes don't make the playoffs; and concert and non-hockey event bookings do not increase.

Or am I misreading the data? Since 2009-10 Team and Arena losses (NHL is Arena Manager, so those losses have to be added) combined with the NHLs purchase price pushed the sales price to $160M - $170M.

 

[Coach]

So, through 31 home games this year (not including the Prague game, of course), here's what's been reported:

2010-11 attendance is up 6.35% (2009-10 ATD 10,927; 2010-11 ATD 11,621).

And we know from the posts here that the report of current losses being $40M to date includes (to quote the article that referred to the $40M loss-to-date) that the, "number of free tickets doled out this season has dropped by 36 percent from last year, according to the league statistics. The team has sold an average of 1,188 more paid tickets per game this season.

"That has helped the franchise earn 15 percent more money per ticket without raising ticket prices."

So, unless we're only cherry-picking the data reported, that $40M must be the projected combined loss if attendance doesn't get the bump it did last year; the Coyotes don't make the playoffs; and concert and non-hockey event bookings do not increase.

Or am I misreading the data? Since 2009-10 Team and Arena losses (NHL is Arena Manager, so those losses have to be added) combined with the NHLs purchase price pushed the sales price to $160M - $170M.

According to the recent article the loss is thus far but could go up to 30 million with a few sellouts and playoffs. To me it doesn't make any sense if everything is so much better than last years numbers but the losses are greater than last year. Something isn't right in my opinion.