Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?

[peter sullivan]

if extracting $100m out of that parking lot was not a risk to the taxpayer, hulsizer would have simply done it himself and he would have been the owner of this team for months now.

we can lawyer it to death but it all boils down to that simple fact in my opinion....

 

[pirate94]

My experience with Litigation cry Lawyers in particular (US) would suggest otherwise pirate. Most are alomost clairvoyant in projecting outcome; the majority of cases settled out of court as a result. I consider that particular species of the profession the Great White's, to be avoided at all costs.... No interest in surfing Queensland thanks....

I don't necessarily want to send this into a debate on lawyers. Most aren't all, there is always room for error and i'm doubting this would get to a "settled out of court" based on the GWI's lust for the issue. A laywer who doesn't see a possibility for a case is either a bad lawyer/poor lawyer or has the confidence of Charlie Brown.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Wow ... I'm sick for a couple of days and I come back to billions more Coyotes posts. Madness.

I really hope this ends soon, and I think if the team moves to Winnipeg, everybody is going to come out of this unscathed except the CoG.

NHL: Went above and beyond to do everything possible to save the team in Glendale. (Looks good to southern fans, did their best, etc.) Moved the team back to Canada (looks good to Canadian fans, 'righting a wrong'). Plus, in TNSE, the league adds some very respectable (not to mention very wealthy) owners to its ranks.

GWI: Acted in the taxpayers' interest, according to their mandate. I'm sure these guys annoy people all the time doing what they do, but the people who support them will no doubt be very happy with their work enforcing the gift clause. I think as far as they're concerned, as long as they can prove they were doing their job and the CoG was, in fact, acting illegally, they're not too concerned with public perception.

Hulsizer: Did what he could, made an attempt to keep the team in Glendale, can act all despondent and sorry it didn't work out when the team moves. Fans like him because he tried. Now has a working relationship with the NHL, and an in should he desire to purchase another team in the future.

TNSE: Kept their mouths shut, followed the rules, got a team. Winnipeg is happy. Canada is happy. The universe becomes cosmically re-aligned.

CoG: Totally pooched.

CoG: Dodged a bullet. Can finally begin thinking of a Plan B for the arena and Westgate development that makes financial sense. A chance to elect a new mayor that does not see him- or herself as a risk taking entrepreneur using tax payers' money.

GHOST

 

[OthmarAmmann]

I'm so depressed, now I know how jets fans felt.

I really do feel for the fans in Phoenix. I'll take shots at MH, the COG, the NHL, or the GWI (even the players too) but I feel for the fans. Anybody from Winnipeg really should too.

Has anyone seen the BIG promo add on the AZ Republic website?

It says 3 Coyote Tickets for $49. That's like $16 per ticket. No wonder this team is losing 40-45 million this season.

It says "starting at"

Want to bet it's for the last six rows of the upper deck behind the Coyote's goal?

 

[LeftCoast]

Whether it's a subsidy in a "legally punishable in Arizona" kind of way, may still be a matter of conjecture, although CoG's continued public whining strongly suggests it is.

But whether it's a subsidy in a meat-and-potatoes practicality of running a business sense - of that there is no doubt, it's a subsidy, and a hefty one at that.

A "back of the envelope" analysis indicates it's pretty clear subsidy.

Hulsizer is leasing BOTH the arena AND adjacent parking areas for approximately $6M/year for the next 23 years. At the end of the lease, the buyout / residual value of the lease (including parking rights) is $40M. Using a 6% discount rate (I don't know the interest rate on the lease, but this is reasonable), the present value of what the city is receiving from Hulsizer over the next 23 years is approximately $89M.

The City is purchasing back from Hulsizer the parking rights (only a portion of the whole property) for 23 years for $100M. They are borrowing that $100M now, and paying it back over the next 23 years at what could be as high as 9% interest rate and hoping that the revenue from parking offsets the cost of the bonds.

So how is this not a subsidy? They leased the entire property to him for $89M and then bought back only a portion of it for $100M.

It's as if I borrowed $1.8M at 6% for 30 years to build a house. After 7 years I decided to lease it to you for a total value of $900K over the remaining term. Then I decide to borrow another $1M at 9% over 23 years, which I give to you up front for the rights to use the garage - which I hope to break even on by renting out.

Oh yeah - and then I pay you close to $170K per year to maintain the house - something that the previous tenants paid for themselves.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

You do appreciate just how tongue in cheek those of us down here take the admonishment and advice we get from Canadian media? He is certainly entitled to his opinion, but our best interst I doubt is his motivation.

I'm just curious. Are you a resident of Glendale?

GHOST

 

[cbcwpg]

Given the following:

The CoG owns the Arena
The NHL owns the Team

GWI in a letter to the CoG says:

As you know, the Gift Clause requires a tangible quid pro quo for payments made to a private company or individual. The crux of the deal is the City obtaining parking rights in exchange for giving a payment of $100 million to the purchaser. . The purchaser in this case being Matthew Hulsizer.

But, concidering IMO that at this point in time Matthew Hulsizer owns nothing ( he has not yet purchased the team, nor the parking) , how can the CoG give MH $100M for the rights to parking when he does not yet own those rights? I could see the CoG trying to pay the NHL for those rights, if in fact the rights to parking are owned by the same entitiy that owns the team.

So either the NHL owns the parking or the CoG owns the parking, in either case the CoG can't give MH $100M for parking rights.

Or this has been going on too long and I forget when Hulsizer got the rights to parking, in which case all the above can be ignored.

 

[pirate94]

I really do feel for the fans in Phoenix. I'll take shots at MH, the COG, the NHL, or the GWI (even the players too) but I feel for the fans. Anybody from Winnipeg really should too.

I'm on the side that i don't feel for the fans of the Coyotes. I'll sound harsh and cold, but i won't apologize for feeling that way, it sucks that it didn't work out but i guess at this point they can focus on the teams that they really support down there.

 

[LeftCoast]

Given the following:

The CoG owns the Arena
The NHL owns the Team

GWI in a letter to the CoG says:

As you know, the Gift Clause requires a tangible quid pro quo for payments made to a private company or individual. The crux of the deal is the City obtaining parking rights in exchange for giving a payment of $100 million to the purchaser. . The purchaser in this case being Matthew Hulsizer.

But, concidering IMO that at this point in time Matthew Hulsizer owns nothing ( he has not yet purchased the team, nor the parking) , how can the CoG give MH $100M for the rights to parking when he does not yet own those rights? I could see the CoG trying to pay the NHL for those rights, if in fact the rights to parking are owned by the same entitiy that owns the team.

So either the NHL owns the parking or the CoG owns the parking, in either case the CoG can't give MH $100M for parking rights.

Or this has been going on too long and I forget when Hulsizer got the rights to parking, in which case all the above can be ignored.

Hulsizers rights to the parking stem from his leasing the facility from the CoG. The problem is that the CoG is paying Hulsizer more for the parking rights than Hulsizer is paying the CoG for the whole facility including the parking.

 

[CBJ goalie]

I just can't see how the COG will be able to proceed with the bond sale - everything they have worked out is supposed to cover the $$$ given to MH - but if the rate on the bonds does happen to be 9%, and ends up costing an additional $100M, wouldn't they have to amend the lease again?

 

[MAROONSRoad]

garylawless

Goldwater tells the Free Press this morning its position has not changed and G-dale/Hulsizer agreement appears to be illegal from their view

 

[pirate94]

garylawless

Goldwater tells the Free Press this morning its position has not changed and G-dale/Hulsizer agreement appears to be illegal from their view

I think Goldwater is the best thing to happen to Winnipeg since The Forks

 

[Dado]

Goldwater tells the Free Press this morning its position has not changed and G-dale/Hulsizer agreement appears to be illegal from their view

In before complaints that GWI is delaying giving an opinion...

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

I can't wait until COG releases the agenda for next Tuesday's meeting.

 

[Coach]

I'm so depressed, now I know how jets fans felt.

Not yet, but likely shortly. You still have hope.

 

[cbcwpg]

Hulsizers rights to the parking stem from his leasing the facility from the CoG. The problem is that the CoG is paying Hulsizer more for the parking rights than Hulsizer is paying the CoG for the whole facility including the parking.

Ok. If I look at say leasing a car, the person doing the leasing never actually owns the car. You either have to return the car at the end of the lease or you can buy it out. And if I equate that to Hulsizer leasing the arena which entitles him to the parking rights while under lease, he can sell the parking and make money off of the parking, but the CoG still owns the parking. At the time the lease ends, the parking would revert back to the CoG. Or MH could buy the rights to parking from the CoG, but not the CoG buying the parking from MH.

I don't mean to confuse things, but that's how I see a lease working. I need one of the lawyers on here to comment.

 

[Retail1LO*]

"I got your number. I'll give you a call"


Here's another way to look at it.

If the City of Glendale had taken the $50M from Jim Balsillie to terminate the lease, and bought an annuity at 6%, it would have paid the $6M arena lease costs for the next 12 years - without any events, parking or event revenues at all.

LOL

Ouch.

I wonder what it's like for Balsillie to wake up every day and watch how this is going down. It's gotta be a solid mix of sheer laughter and amusement with some aggrevation tossed in.

A guy with loads of money, ready to purchase a team and put it in Canada. The league denies him for so many reasons.

Fast forward to now, and we could very well end up seeing this team in Canada anyway.

It sure as hell amuses ME.

 

[Duckhole]

I'm on the side that i don't feel for the fans of the Coyotes. I'll sound harsh and cold, but i won't apologize for feeling that way, it sucks that it didn't work out but i guess at this point they can focus on the teams that they really support down there.

Alot of people do support the team, I suppose they wouldn't matter to you. Why should they move to wpg when they didn't give the team proper support either. Maybe they should go to Quebec instead.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

The ironic thing is, there's be no chance whatsoever that Winnipeg would reacquire the Jets if it wasn't for Balsillie.

The NHL would have sold the team to Reinsdorf and lived happily ever after.

 

[Retail1LO*]

Ok. If I look at say leasing a car, the person doing the leasing never actually owns the car. You either have to return the car at the end of the lease or you can buy it out. And if I equate that to Hulsizer leasing the arena which entitles him to the parking rights while under lease, he can sell the parking and make money off of the parking, but the CoG still owns the parking. At the time the lease ends, the parking would revert back to the CoG. Or MH could buy the rights to parking from the CoG, but not the CoG buying the parking from MH.

I don't mean to confuse things, but that's how I see a lease working. I need one of the lawyers on here to comment.

It sounds like a real cluster****.

 

[cbcwpg]

The ironic thing is, there's be no chance whatsoever that Winnipeg would reacquire the Jets if it wasn't for Balsillie.

The NHL would have sold the team to Reinsdorf and lived happily ever after.

Never say never. The rumor at the time was Reinsdorf was just in it to buy a team on the cheap and flip it in 5 years. So if he had bought the Coyotes, we would just be finishing up year 2 of the Reinsdorf ownership trial. Nobody can say what things would have been like if he had bought the team.

 

[pirate94]

Ok. If I look at say leasing a car, the person doing the leasing never actually owns the car. You either have to return the car at the end of the lease or you can buy it out. And if I equate that to Hulsizer leasing the arena which entitles him to the parking rights while under lease, he can sell the parking and make money off of the parking, but the CoG still owns the parking. At the time the lease ends, the parking would revert back to the CoG. Or MH could buy the rights to parking from the CoG, but not the CoG buying the parking from MH.

I don't mean to confuse things, but that's how I see a lease working. I need one of the lawyers on here to comment.

It can depend on if the lease is for the arena and land, arena alone....etc.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Have Bettman or Daly released any statements yet regarding the state of the sale or the possibility of relocation?

Usually they're very quick to shoot down rumors and say that the sale is progressing and will be completed "imminently".

 

[Fugu]

Now I may be taking this out of context but this upsets me. He's not looking forward to it? Is that Ego/Attitude talking that he doesn't want Winnipeg back in the fold or is he being politically correct saying he doesn't want to pull the plug on Glendale? Or both?

I read it as softening the blow, yes, we tried to help CoG so I'm not looking forward to having to do the deed.

if extracting $100m out of that parking lot was not a risk to the taxpayer, hulsizer would have simply done it himself and he would have been the owner of this team for months now.

we can lawyer it to death but it all boils down to that simple fact in my opinion....

I keep repeating this same thing. MH isn't willing to assume the risk. Why? Because there is nothing that suggests these numbers are remotely achievable since the history suggests otherwise.

Given the following:

The CoG owns the Arena
The NHL owns the Team

GWI in a letter to the CoG says:

As you know, the Gift Clause requires a tangible quid pro quo for payments made to a private company or individual. The crux of the deal is the City obtaining parking rights in exchange for giving a payment of $100 million to the purchaser. . The purchaser in this case being Matthew Hulsizer.

But, concidering IMO that at this point in time Matthew Hulsizer owns nothing ( he has not yet purchased the team, nor the parking) , how can the CoG give MH $100M for the rights to parking when he does not yet own those rights? I could see the CoG trying to pay the NHL for those rights, if in fact the rights to parking are owned by the same entitiy that owns the team.

So either the NHL owns the parking or the CoG owns the parking, in either case the CoG can't give MH $100M for parking rights.

Or this has been going on too long and I forget when Hulsizer got the rights to parking, in which case all the above can be ignored.

No, you're on the right track. Someone owns the team and someone owns the parking rights. We know the NHL owns the team. There "may" be a gray area about the parking rights, per GWI's admission.

If the NHL owns the rights, then MH is paying some portion for the team and some for the parking. I asked earlier about the tax implications because that's the best way to follow the money trail.

Thing is--- he has to get the money from Glendale in order to buy the team and the rights from the NHL? Why is Glendale giving him the money then? (Or he bridges the deal with his own money, acquires the rights from the NHL, then flips these to Glendale. Sweet.)


If CoG owns the rights by default after Moyes canceled his agreement with them..... well, that would be very interesting.

If the City of Glendale had taken the $50M from Jim Balsillie to terminate the lease, and bought an annuity at 6%, it would have paid the $6M arena lease costs for the next 12 years - without any events, parking or event revenues at all.

Baum did ask them quite pointedly if they were sure they wanted to turn that down. Even he could do the math.

Iirc, he was going to give them that money even if he lost the ruling (which was likely).

 

[Coach]

Your question is one of causation. I think the CoG could show that the GWI's actions proximately caused an otherwise acceptable interest rate to become inflated. The CoG's position would be selling the bonds, even at a higher rate, mitigated against any damage of the team leaving. I don't think the CoG would have even a remote problem showing causation. The more difficult issue to prove is did the GWI do enough to actually cross the line by sending threating letters and making public comments about the legality of the transaction, to actually tortious interfere? I believe while Glendale used the term "potential" when discussing the unconstitutionality of the transaction and their intention to sue, they crossed the line and if their position on the legality of the transaction is ultimately shown to be wrong, the GWI is going to get drilled for significant damages that could bankrupt the organization. At a minimum, staff needs to tell the Board this is a possibility if every went against them.

I'm no lawyer, but the fact that even Hulsizer is on record as stating the CoG didn't release the documents in a timely manner and the admission that 400 pages were released last Friday probably doesn't play into CoG favour. Especially when they have a court order to do so. Scrugs stating that GWI has all documents regarding the sale for months isn't true and inaccurate comments such as these aren't a positive. I really don't think the CoG councillors are going to want everything that went on behind closed doors brought up to the public. Something a lawsuit likely would do.