Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever

[MNNumbers]

Wiki is simply on observer who have experience with the league's misinformation practices. His suggestions IMHO do not always come from inside sources.

His reflexions are more logical bets and scepticism to what many of the so-called sport reporters state.

Thank you. And, I like the creativity in the new avatar.

 

[Nordskull]

Thank you. And, I like the creativity in the new avatar.

Those are t-shirts sold somewhere on the web. Fun isnt?

 

[cbcwpg]

She hasn't stopped to take a breath, it would seem. She mostly blames some sort of unspoken "hurdle" thrown in front of the dashing Jamison that prevented him from coming through as she expected. She has gone so far as to trot out the farcical Pollack analysis (based on Hocking's goofy figures) to claim that the Jamison deal would have been a net financial "win" for Glendale, even though Skeete and colleagues have finally admitted that the Jamison deal would have actually resulted in a greater need for budget cuts than without.

Oh, and she hasn't relented in her ongoing diatribe against the current mayor and council.

This woman has issues, that's for sure...

Telling Ken Jones that if his water bill is too high... conserve. Not a bad idea , but maybe there is another reason why his bill is high.

Joyce Clark ‏@clarkjv
Or education contract could teach Ken Jones how to conserve water so his bill isnt too high.

If I was the CoG council, I would keep an eye out for Joyce Clark attending any meetings wearing a long trench coat. Just saying.

 

[RECCE]

She's still continuing on ?

Misrepresenting her own constituency to cater to Coyote fans from outside her own city is one of the primary things that got her booted from office ... and she still doesn't seem to realize it.

Buffoon.

And shallow...

“@carlyks: !!!!! “@kash2112: From Glendale, AZ.......the new game that's sweeping the nation!""" pic.twitter.com/WadTPafFâ€â€ I LOVE IT!

Someone looking to hook-up with JC maybe, pandering to her like that

 

[CasualFan]

This woman has issues, that's for sure...

If I was the CoG council, I would keep an eye out for Joyce Clark attending any meetings wearing a long trench coat. Just saying.

You're looking in the wrong direction. I've mentioned it before but it's abundantly clear that Clark's twitter is nothing more than a conduit for low wattage output from BeavisPAC and RoboCall Fallar

... Hidden Latino Agenda

 

[knorthern knight]

In my view, if the Coyotes are indeed finally finished in Glendale, I think it is just as likely that the league suspends/contracts the franchise, distributes the contracts that remain via a dispersal draft,

No, No, No, No; contracting/suspending a franchise for even 1 year will...

• rile up the NHLPA no end
• screw up scheduling, but good
• be the only league (mis)management fiasco that can be more embarressing than the past 3 years in Phoenix

 

[JetsFlyHigh]

No, No, No, No; contracting/suspending a franchise for even 1 year will...

• rile up the NHLPA no end
• screw up scheduling, but good
• be the only league (mis)management fiasco that can be more embarressing than the past 3 years in Phoenix

Isn't owning this team for 3 years already an embarrassment? Three years of finding an owner, now another "potential" owner failed, they're moving on to another "potential" owner to what? The COG screwed itself by building an arena in the most awkward location, meanwhile the Coyotes buried themselves in a hole that they can't get out of, not they're pulling everyone with them.

Seems like any business minded person that looks at this franchise would immediately think of a downward spiral. Unless you're a businessman who's willing to lose money and "potentially" make money in an unknown period of time. Sound enticing.

 

[Whileee]

You're looking in the wrong direction. I've mentioned it before but it's abundantly clear that Clark's twitter is nothing more than a conduit for low wattage output from BeavisPAC and RoboCall Fallar

... Hidden Latino Agenda

I have sympathy and admiration for loyal Coyotes' fans, but Fallar is a bit over the top. All of his acolytes seemed to have trusted him mainly for his bombast and self-assurance. It must be a big disappointment for all those who thought that he and Joyce had a clue about what was happening behind the scenes. The fact that they are still tweeting as though they know what will happen next is a bit pathetic. It must be pretty hard for him to acknowledge that in the end it wasn't any of his favourite villains that cratered the deal, but Jamison himself who came up with a big "fail". Jones' petition was inconsequential, and the GWI was nowhere to be seen. The COG had their big lease subsidy ready for Jamison free and clear, and Jamison just couldn't deliver.

 

[Killion]

Holy Mother of.... I take my eye off this thing for 24hrs and an entire threads been burned through?!

...whew. Well, that was fun. Speed reading through the entire thread. Hit innumerable commas', quotations & links, some real slippery patches of hyperbole, but I guess the general consensus is the Yotes are done, spent, gone.

 

[CasualFan]

I have sympathy and admiration for loyal Coyotes' fans, but Fallar is a bit over the top. All of his acolytes seemed to have trusted him mainly for his bombast and self-assurance. It must be a big disappointment for all those who thought that he and Joyce had a clue about what was happening behind the scenes. The fact that they are still tweeting as though they know what will happen next is a bit pathetic. It must be pretty hard for him to acknowledge that in the end it wasn't any of his favourite villains that cratered the deal, but Jamison himself who came up with a big "fail". Jones' petition was inconsequential, and the GWI was nowhere to be seen. The COG had their big lease subsidy ready for Jamison free and clear, and Jamison just couldn't deliver.

I have sympathy for people with cancer. I have admiration for doctors. I have neither for anyone "grieving" the demise of a sports franchise.

- There was a known fact going into this: Phoenix is not a viable market for the NHL product.
- There is a known fact coming out of this: Phoenix is not a viable market for the NHL product even if you lob $300MM or so in public subsidies into the mix.

I posted this the other day but I've never been one to shy away from repeating myself: The city has exhausted sole source procurement on the arena. In fact, they stubbornly attempted it again with JIG after it had already failed with IEH and Hulzinger. Any competent legislative/administrative body would explore competitive bidding for managing the arena. That bidding would likely include a paradigm shift away from purely pursuing sports entertainment. M4B posted the agenda earlier. The council is going to an executive session next week on the topic. That makes sense. I would think it's likely to cover the legal mechanics of the bid process for the freshman council members.

From a hockey fan perspective, I can understand that may be disappointing. I'm sure they'd prefer to endlessly try to drive that square peg into the round hole. But from the city's perspective, it is prudent and it is their fiduciary duty to explore options that are, you know, feasible. The city owned arena facility is currently operated on a tolling version of the NHL AMUL which provides no performance standards or incentives for the league to do anything to program the arena. As a result, there are currently only a handful of non-NHL events booked. The city has to bid this out so their arena asset can begin to perform for them instead of being grossly mismanaged by the NHL. The Pollstar data that KDB brought to the forum is a disturbing snapshot of how the NHL derailed the productivity at the arena. By the way, Glendale obligated themselves to $50MM in fees for that lackluster management effort. Posts by BarneyG and OA have illustrated exactly how desperate the fiscal condition is in Glendale. It would be extremely unwise for the city to ignore that reality to play another round of NHL subsidy roulette.

As for Clark/BeavisPAC, its just Dunning-Kruger on crack. They have no idea what they're talking about and they're incapable of perceiving their own ignorance. The mechanics of governance are completely lost on them. The most obvious example was the asinine Phoenix Monarch conspiracy where the covenants of competitive bidding were somehow suspended so a Council member could guide a contract to a preferred vendor. I probably shouldn't find it so amusing but whatever. I think you captured it perfectly in your post: without all of these boogie men to blame it on, the only thing left is the reality that JIG couldn't raise the necessary funds because the market is untenable.

 

[Faltorvo]

Isn't owning this team for 3 years already an embarrassment? Three years of finding an owner, now another "potential" owner failed, they're moving on to another "potential" owner to what? The COG screwed itself by building an arena in the most awkward location, meanwhile the Coyotes buried themselves in a hole that they can't get out of, not they're pulling everyone with them.

Seems like any business minded person that looks at this franchise would immediately think of a downward spiral. Unless you're a businessman who's willing to lose money and "potentially" make money in an unknown period of time. Sound enticing.

How can that possibly be a viable option (folding) when there is a ready waiting viable option in Quebec?

LMAO, could you imaging the PR nightmare.

Gary Bettmen would rather fold a franchise then send it to Canada, ohhhh my.

 

[Gump Hasek]

No, No, No, No; contracting/suspending a franchise for even 1 year will...

• rile up the NHLPA no end
• screw up scheduling, but good
• be the only league (mis)management fiasco that can be more embarressing than the past 3 years in Phoenix

Not really if the players are promised an additional three teams worth of jobs going forward following a contraction and that the current contracts will be absorbed via a dispersal draft.

Scheduling is not an issue.

The embarrassment to the league is that they left this Coyotes fiasco to fester for as long as it has. Mothballing a franchise for a year is far less embarrassing to the NHL than would be the optics delivered if they had to relocate another team to Canada during an off-season. They need to be seen as dictating terms via the selling of new franchises versus simply shuffling the deck via relocation. Killing the franchise accomplishes that, even if it is in reality just a short-term measure. I think too many here are guilty of assuming that there will be a team up for relocation; there might not be, even if the Coyotes are finished in Glendale at season end.

 

[GF]

She hasn't stopped to take a breath, it would seem. She mostly blames some sort of unspoken "hurdle" thrown in front of the dashing Jamison that prevented him from coming through as she expected. She has gone so far as to trot out the farcical Pollack analysis (based on Hocking's goofy figures) to claim that the Jamison deal would have been a net financial "win" for Glendale, even though Skeete and colleagues have finally admitted that the Jamison deal would have actually resulted in a greater need for budget cuts than without.

Oh, and she hasn't relented in her ongoing diatribe against the current mayor and council.

Thanks.

 

[Faltorvo]

Not really if the players are promised an additional three teams worth of jobs going forward following a contraction and that the current contracts will be absorbed via a dispersal draft.

Scheduling is not an issue.

The embarrassment to the league is that they left this Coyotes fiasco to fester for as long as it has. Mothballing a franchise for a year is far less embarrassing to the NHL than would be the optics delivered if they had to relocate another team to Canada during an off-season. They need to be seen as dictating terms via the selling of new franchises versus simply shuffling the deck via relocation. Killing the franchise accomplishes that, even if it is in reality just a short-term measure. I think too many here are guilty of assuming that there will be a team up for relocation; there might not be, even if the Coyotes are finished in Glendale at season end.

Sorry, what are the bad optics regarding a team relocating to Canada?

 

[Killion]

The Pollstar data that KDB brought to the forum is a disturbing snapshot of how the NHL derailed the productivity at the arena...

Indeed it is, and its unfortunate that Gary Bettman isnt facing his own private Viet Nam over this mess of of a situation, handed a flintlock duelling pistol & told to go out back of his circus tent and do the honourable thing. Instead, he can privately boast about how he mitigated losses (extortion) and went through the wall (as if) to try & facilitate a local sale, protecting the honour & integrity of the leagues right of self determination in selecting its locations. Made whole through a sale to either Seattle or Quebec City, but for the fact that once such a sale is transacted, gone are the unencumbered Expansion Fee's forever, an at least 170M+ hit to the NHL's bottom line for the 2nd straight year in a row, on top of already staggering losses incurred through the invocation & execution of a completely unnecessary Lockout. What respect I did have for Mr. Bettman has all but evaporated entirely as a result of his highly questionable actions with regards the Phoenix situation, the manner in which he dealt with Atlanta, the loss of a half a season etc etc etc....

 

[Llama19]

The embarrassment to the league is that they left this Coyotes fiasco to fester for as long as it has.

I don't think the situation has festered, I think it is going up in smoke!

 

[Faltorvo]

Indeed it is, and its unfortunate that Gary Bettman isnt facing his own private Viet Nam over this mess of of a situation, handed a flintlock duelling pistol & told to go out back of his circus tent and do the honourable thing. Instead, he can privately boast about how he mitigated losses (extortion) and went through the wall (as if) to try & facilitate a local sale, protecting the honour & integrity of the leagues right of self determination in selecting its locations. Made whole through a sale to either Seattle or Quebec City, but for the fact that once such a sale is transacted, gone are the unencumbered Expansion Fee's forever, an at least 170M+ hit to the NHL's bottom line for the 2nd straight year in a row, on top of already staggering losses incurred through the invocation & execution of a completely unnecessary Lockout.

Because of the previous court cases, could the nhl actually fold this team if there are other viable options?

From a legal liability point of view.

 

[Gump Hasek]

Sorry, what are the bad optics regarding a team relocating to Canada?

Those would mainly be US optics, basically. Some/many there saw the move to Winnipeg as bad for the league (believe it or not), in spite of the net financial benefit to the league. Some Americans think of Manitoba and Quebec as the hinterlands versus the core/heartland of the sport that they truly are. Many Americans think only America represents growth for some reason. Such is life. Not saying I agree with it. Just saying that is how some there would perceive a move from Phoenix to Quebec, as a step back.

 

[GF]

She hasn't stopped to take a breath, it would seem. She mostly blames some sort of unspoken "hurdle" thrown in front of the dashing Jamison that prevented him from coming through as she expected. She has gone so far as to trot out the farcical Pollack analysis (based on Hocking's goofy figures) to claim that the Jamison deal would have been a net financial "win" for Glendale, even though Skeete and colleagues have finally admitted that the Jamison deal would have actually resulted in a greater need for budget cuts than without.

Oh, and she hasn't relented in her ongoing diatribe against the current mayor and council.

Thanks.

 

[GuelphStormer]

contraction is too messy when there are two very viable arenas with owners in waiting (copps in the hammer and le colisee in qc). by most account the arena in seattle is simply not move in ready and the market, while enticing, involves too many unknowns still.

i must admit, i am still baffled as to why people here are carving out this false distinction between "expansion" fee and "relocation" fee. as far as im concerned both are entirely discretionary by the league and thus could be made equal and/or any amount. other than one method actually involves moving an existing team, there are no advantages or disadvantages to either in establishing a team in a new city for anyone involved.

this team will be moved at the end of this season. where it goes depends on what venues are available now and how much whoever controls those venues is willing to pay for it right now. the relocation decision now has absolutely nothing to do with any potential deal with any other location. the league is not pondering "saving" a city to cash in bigger later. gta2 and seattle are off the table with respect to the coyotes. only hamilton and qc are realistic options right now.

 

[Killion]

The embarrassment to the league is that they left this Coyotes fiasco to fester for as long as it has. Mothballing a franchise for a year is far less embarrassing to the NHL than would be the optics delivered if they had to relocate another team to Canada during an off-season. They need to be seen as dictating terms via the selling of new franchises versus simply shuffling the deck via relocation. Killing the franchise accomplishes that, even if it is in reality just a short-term measure. I think too many here are guilty of assuming that there will be a team up for relocation; there might not be, even if the Coyotes are finished in Glendale at season end.

Theyve got a lot more than just that to be embarrassed about, and I see your point there Gump, but you dont think thats a rather foolish stunt to be trying to play on the public, the business community at large, the media who are sure to call them on it? Where do they "find" the money to pay down the Line of Credit with Bank America they used to buy, manage, operate & fund the Coyotes? If they "suspend" the franchise for a year or two, they'll have to at minimum pay the monthly interest charges on that coinage, and that'll run a packet. Then when they announce "were selling an Expansion Franchise to".... Oh, Ok. Alrighty then.

Anyone with half a brain can see right through that shell game. Similar sort of thing they pulled in St.Louis decades back when Ralston Purina threw the keys on the table & walked. "Wild Bill" Hunter (founder of the Edmonton Oilers, WHA) offered to buy the team, but only if he could move them to Saskatoon. NHL veto's that option in a New York second of course, Contracts the franchise, sells an "Expansion Franchise" to Harry Ornest 15 minutes later, who "re-names" his new team "The St. Louis Blues". Now Man, thats Biblical. Full on Resurrection, and playing out of the Checkerdome! This here in Phoenix a little different when the shoes on the other foot and the NHL's on the hook for what must be near on $200M huh?

 

[Gump Hasek]

i must admit, i am still baffled as to why people here are carving out this false distinction between "expansion" fee and "relocation" fee. as far as im concerned both are entirely discretionary by the league and thus could be made equal and/or any amount. other than one method actually involves moving an existing team, there are no advantages or disadvantages to either in establishing a team in a new city for anyone involved.

this team will be moved at the end of this season. where it goes depends on what venues are available now and how much whoever controls those venues is willing to pay for it right now. the relocation decision now has absolutely nothing to do with any potential deal with any other location. the league is not pondering "saving" a city to cash in bigger later. gta2 and seattle are off the table with respect to the coyotes. only hamilton and qc are realistic options right now.

I'm not one of those suggesting that expansion fees versus relocation fees differ, nor am I suggesting the league should save a city to cash in later. I am however also not one of those that are parroting repeatedly that relocation needs to happen and nothing else. The league doesn't really need to do anything if the Coyotes are no longer to play in Glendale. They can just alternatively just kill the franchise, take their time and mete out new locations at a time and price of their own planned choosing versus being forced to move a team overnight. It is an alternative that is not really garnering enough consideration in this space.

 

[JetsFlyHigh]

How can that possibly be a viable option (folding) when there is a ready waiting viable option in Quebec?

LMAO, could you imaging the PR nightmare.

Gary Bettmen would rather fold a franchise then send it to Canada, ohhhh my.

I don't know where you got the "folding" idea. I was just replying to the guy's post.

 

[Killion]

Because of the previous court cases, could the nhl actually fold this team if there are other viable options? From a legal liability point of view.

Well, Im not a Lawyer, but sure, ya, of course they could. Their not beholding to anything legally that would prevent them from doing so.... however, it does raise questions pursuant to this;

They can just alternatively just kill the franchise, take their time and mete out new locations at a time and price of their own planned choosing versus being forced to move a team overnight. It is an alternative that is not really garnering enough consideration in this space.

... and what does Gary Bettman tell the BOG's & Bank America? "Look guys, Im going to suspend the franchise, then immediately sell an Expansion Team to PKP or Levin/Hansen et al, and use that money to pay-off our LOC with BofA"?. Or does he suspend the franchise until 2015 when both QC & Seattle's new buildings are ready, paying the interest on the LOC for the next 2.5yrs while waiting, further inflating the eventual sale price? It just doesnt seem practicable Gump, and thats probably why there isnt a whole lot of discussion about it here on hf, not to mention being totally Bush League. The last thing the league wants to do is suspend or contract a franchise. Thats going affect a whole range of revenue streams causing further damage. Why go down that road when we know of at least one willing buyer with an excellent temporary facility & shovels in the ground, with the further leverage of up & comers in Seattle to expedite a sale & tout sweet?

 

[Gump Hasek]

Why go down that road when we know of at least one willing buyer with an excellent temporary facility & shovels in the ground, with the further leverage of up & comers in Seattle to expedite a sale & tout sweet?

My answer to you is because when professionals dispose of an asset they don't simply just choose the first available buyer but rather attempt to maximize the return from the asset for sale. It is why most people advertise used cars for sale in the paper or on the internet versus simply choosing what a neighbor is first offering. Why take $170 million for the Coyotes today when they can instead offer a portable expansion franchise to several buyers of their own choosing (say to Seattle/QC/Houston/Vegas for example), for delivery on (for example) June 2014 at a price of $250 million to the first qualified buyer that agrees, while at the same time stating that the next portable franchise will cost $275 million or more in 2015, and that GTA2 will be available at $350 million at the same time? That theoretical first $250 million in the future beats $170 million today and is why you don't just sell to the first buyer that comes calling. They don't need to relocate overnight. They conversely can take their time and sell an "expansion" franchise based upon a later date of their choosing versus simply reacting under the gun overnight.