Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever

[knorthern knight]

What's the arena situation in Portland? Can the Trail Blazers have their fire put on ice or does there need to be another temporary arena or a hiatus til an arena gets built?

The following two factoids are both from Wikipedia (yeah, I know)

• The Rose Garden hockey seating capacity is 18,280
• the Portland Winterhawks play a few of their regular season games there, but most of their games are played at Veterans Memorial Coliseum which has a capacity of 10,407

The main problem appears to be that Paul Allen bears some sort of grudge against the NHL after failing in a bid to purchase the Penguins during one of their bankruptcies. And since Allen owns the Rose Garden, the situation is similar in many ways to Atlanta, where the arena managers (ASG) wanted nothing to do with NHL hockey. If the guy in charge of the arena says no NHL, then it's no NHL. I don't see Gallacher operating as a tenant in the Rose Garden. The only way I could remotely imagine the Coyotes, under Gallacher, moving to Portland, is if Gallacher buys the Rose Garden from Paul Allen. Or at the very least a 50% share like American Airlines Center in Dallas. It's co-owned by the owners of the Mavericks (NBA) and the Stars (NHL).

 

[Kimota]

I have the feeling that the NHL knows it's over in Phoenix but will entertain the doubt all season so to not cause a disaster to keep the team viable till the end of the season. Then boom. they'll announce them leaving after the playoffs.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

you got proof of that ?

only numbers we ever see is Forbes estimates... and Ott made 14.5 million and EDM 16.2 million according to them

For what it's worth Forbes said the Oilers made money. Katz was just making things up to extract more money for his arena.

Ottawa I 'm not sure about. MIght lose a bit of money if they are a cap team and don't go far in the playoffs, but I'm sure they make money if they are well below the cap (might have been last year?). Regardless, they turn a profit with all the non-hrr they generate through all those concerts at the arena. One of the busiest venues in N.A.

 

[Fourier]

For what it's worth Forbes said the Oilers made money. Katz was just making things up to extract more money for his arena.

Ottawa I 'm not sure about. MIght lose a bit of money if they are a cap team and don't go far in the playoffs, but I'm sure they make money if they are well below the cap (might have been last year?). Regardless, they turn a profit with all the non-hrr they generate through all those concerts at the arena. One of the busiest venues in N.A.

And of course Forbes has yet to correctly identify which NHL owners are billionaires. To bad there is not a list of such people somewhere that they could use as a reference.

 

[JimAnchower]

only numbers we ever see is Forbes estimates... and Ott made 14.5 million and EDM 16.2 million according to them

I'm not sure why anyone takes those Forbes estimates as the gospel. The biggest reason is that we don't know where Forbes got those numbers from. Did the NHL completely open up their books and allow Forbes complete access to them? Or did the NHL send Forbes their books and Forbes worked with the figures they received? My guess, it's the latter. The NHL doesn't want people to know exactly what is going on. It's a very closed fraternity. So if they are the NHL's numbers, why should we "beleve" them? They could have pre-scrubbed those numbers, giving Forbes no option but to show that most teams lose money. In addition, it isn't particularly hard to turn a small profit into a small loss, particularly when the financial documents aren't legally binding. In addition, how many years of information did Forbes look at? Looking at one year's worth of information isn't that helpful because there could have been special charges or monies amortized differently for that one year that would disguise the true financial condition of the team.

Essentially, the Forbes numbers can best be looked at as a guide. Most teams showed to be losing money aren't losing a lot of money. With non-hockey related revenue included, most of these teams make money. Just look at the Florida Panthers as an example. Forbes shows the Panthers lose money, but we know their parent company makes a lot of money using the Panthers as the primary tenant of their arena.

 

[ajmidd12]

Dammit! I'll never be able to leave this saga alone.

Doesn't sound very good for Beazer.

Wonder if Joyce should be shaking in her boots... God knows what else these dimwits approved and charged, wonder if there will be any criminal charges laid?

Pretty sad to see their GF go from $66.4M to <-$26,649>. Guess the NHL did managed to withdraw the $50M after all.

I have the feeling that the NHL knows it's over in Phoenix but will entertain the doubt all season so to not cause a disaster to keep the team viable till the end of the season. Then boom. they'll announce them leaving after the playoffs.

You're late to the party, but correct, to minimize losses they will continue to say "we're working on it, we're close" and "we're confident it will be done soon"

Then the playoffs will end, the team will be announced as sold to someone who wishes to relocate them and people in Seattle or QC will party, those in Phoenix will cry, it will be the "end".

 

[Hero]

I wonder which of the three will get the Yotes Tor/Que/Sea

 

[JordyRamone]

IMO it's silly to think this team is going anywhere but QC if they move this year. Seattle and GTA don't have a arena that could support the team right now. And there plans to build a arena could still fall through. Those places can get a expansion team in 4 years when they are ready. It's time from Bettman to right his wrong. QC all the way!

 

[JB52]

I wonder which of the three will get the Yotes Tor/Que/Sea

Well, do we agree that if they have to move at the end of this season, you can forget Toronto. And as long Seattle don't have that NBA team and don't dig for the new arena, it still a bit doubtfull, even more if they have to play in the Key Arena more than one year. That only leave one choice. (Keep the team in the desert )

 

[aqib]

Essentially, the Forbes numbers can best be looked at as a guide. Most teams showed to be losing money aren't losing a lot of money. With non-hockey related revenue included, most of these teams make money. Just look at the Florida Panthers as an example. Forbes shows the Panthers lose money, but we know their parent company makes a lot of money using the Panthers as the primary tenant of their arena.

I think Forbes pretty much extrapolates the numbers based on the public info. Ticket prices and attendance, suite prices, sponsorship rates, etc are for the most part public. The salaries are published so while its probably not accurate to the dollar if they are coming up with a $16 million profit I would say its a good bet the team is in the black.

 

[Whileee]

Read the article and it looks more like a good ass-covering job by Mike Sunnucks. He

goes on to explain why he reported such and such and if you read between the lines

and from whom he got his info.

As for Mr.Oil from Calgary buying a team?

3 words. St-Louis Blues.

Where was he when the team was being sold at the basement bargain price of $130 Million last year?

Could of had a team for less and with the remote possibility of making a small profit.

No, instead wants the Phoenix Coyotes.

Makes sense to me.

Well, seems like Sunnucks and his editors also need a bit of help in the grammar area...

Backers at Glendale City Hall and around the hockey team’s front office were routinely assured the deal was going to happen. That resulted in reports — including from here — that the deal was close, the deal was eminent, the deal was going to get done.

 

[Gump Hasek]

In my view, if the Coyotes are indeed finally finished in Glendale, I think it is just as likely that the league suspends/contracts the franchise, distributes the contracts that remain via a dispersal draft, and then sells expansion franchises going forward in the coming years.

Quebec - $250 million
Seattle - $250 million
GTA2 - $350 million

That is a nice chunk of change for the owners to split.

 

[BnGBear1970]

Oh, Whileee, I saw that, debated putting it up, and stopped since I didn't want to rant about grammar and vocabulary in a business thread. One would think it's possible to have a proper grip on the language, but clearly most writers and editors think otherwise.

As far as the main topic, I suspect it's about to slow down bigtime. The council will talk with everyone, but constantly remind them there's little to be had here. Maybe he emerges as a politician and takes the pyrrhic victory of a slight discount on $308m/20yrs, but I suspect this is a man in the Land of Goldwater that will find the true cost of arena management and offer not one dime more.

If that happens, the NHL will make their peace with Glendale and sell to whomever buys. Seattle, QC, Toronto, or Iqaluit, so long as money is in hand, the team is out of theirs.

February and March will be the dog days of this though, make no mistake. There will be nonsense updates and at best a handful of leaks.

 

[CasualFan]

Postmortem from around the web:

Weiers on AZCentral: http://www.azcentral.com/community/...to-secure-the-coyotes-at-jobingcom-arena.html

Mayor seems pretty candid about lessons learned and ending the illogical level of subsidy. I don't want to jump the gun and say that Glendale will operate like a functional government, but, maybe they'll actually bid the contract - like they should have done 3 years ago...

Kevin Allen in USAToday:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...013/02/01/nhl-phoenix-coyotes-column/1885133/

For some reason Kevin thinks market viability is a still a question. Maybe he was in a coma since May of 2009 or something, I don't know. He's clearly somewhere between dreamer and escapist on the visual thesaurus. Probably why he's a writer and not a fund manager.

Mike Sunnucks in Phoenix Business Journal: http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2013/02/phoenix-coyotes-sale-what-went-wrong.html

I found this one most enjoyable. Good for Sunnucks. Perhaps he could vet his sources a bit better in the future. But I guess the objective for his coverage was site traffic and reporting wildly contradicting and completely untrue information seemed to gain him wide recognition - even if it was mostly negative feedback.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

"The city released a statement saying the sides will work to reach a new agreement that is in the best interests of the city and its residents.

“The next step involves seeking direction from the City Council to determine how to move forward with this process. The arena was built to serve as a catalyst for the economic growth that has occurred in Glendale’s sport and entertainment district, and its success remains a priority for the city,” according to the statement, which was not attributed to a particular person."

Hilarious. A negative general fund balance and an outstanding RFP for a forensic audit. Can't imagine what kind of timeframe the city would be working on, but it can't be quick.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Wonder if Joyce should be shaking in her boots... God knows what else these dimwits approved and charged, wonder if there will be any criminal charges laid?

Pretty sad to see their GF go from $66.4M to <-$26,649>. Guess the NHL did managed to withdraw the $50M after all.

No, Joyce was on council not in administration, so she shouldn't have to worry.

Any criminal charges would come following the audit, presuming actions were due to criminal conduct rather than just incompetence.

 

[Undertakerqc]

I wonder which of the three will get the Yotes Tor/Que/Sea

We all do, i am hoping Québec...

 

[GF]

Anyone knows if Joyce Clark tweeted anything since the failed deal??

 

[thom]

According to fox sports and canoe web site Portland is trying to get an nhl team?The owner of Portland junior team would buy phoneix and move it to Portland?

 

[Whileee]

Anyone knows if Joyce Clark tweeted anything since the failed deal??

She hasn't stopped to take a breath, it would seem. She mostly blames some sort of unspoken "hurdle" thrown in front of the dashing Jamison that prevented him from coming through as she expected. She has gone so far as to trot out the farcical Pollack analysis (based on Hocking's goofy figures) to claim that the Jamison deal would have been a net financial "win" for Glendale, even though Skeete and colleagues have finally admitted that the Jamison deal would have actually resulted in a greater need for budget cuts than without.

Oh, and she hasn't relented in her ongoing diatribe against the current mayor and council.

 

[XX]

According to fox sports and canoe web site Portland is trying to get an nhl team?The owner of Portland junior team would buy phoneix and move it to Portland?

No. Lazy, lazy journalism. Bill Gallacher owns the Winterhawks, sure. But he has no affinity for Portland, as demonstrated by him wanting in on the Stars and Devils. He is a hockey fan, from Calgary. And moving an NHL team to Portland would likely kill off the Winterhawks.

It's far more likely that he is the steward Phoenix needs until Seattle is ready.

 

[Hawker14]

She's still continuing on ?

Misrepresenting her own constituency to cater to Coyote fans from outside her own city is one of the primary things that got her booted from office ... and she still doesn't seem to realize it.

Buffoon.

 

[Llama19]

Anyone knows if Joyce Clark tweeted anything since the failed deal??

Joyce Clark ‏@clarkjv (9:03 a.m. [AZ Time], 02/02/13)

“@HR1616: @gregdunaway @mikegrose Hulsizer needed a CoG deal, Jamison did & the next guy will too. Weiers think this is Toronto?†Who knows

She doesn't get it and never will...

 

[MNNumbers]

Quick question: Does anyone know how reliable NHLWiki is on twitter as a source? I know we don't want to get people excited by twitter on here. Just wondering if it's trustworthy?

 

[Nordskull]

Quick question: Does anyone know how reliable NHLWiki is on twitter as a source? I know we don't want to get people excited by twitter on here. Just wondering if it's trustworthy?

Wiki is simply on observer who have experience with the league's misinformation practices. His suggestions IMHO do not always come from inside sources.

His reflexions are more logical bets and scepticism to what many of the so-called sport reporters state.