Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[powerstuck]

I dunno, if someone wrote me a check for 25 mill a year, I would be inclined to do a lot for that person.

Heck I would do a lot for someone for 1 mil a year.

 

[Glacial]

Just curious, and this may be OT, but why would republicans support this bill? I thought they were supposed to be all about small government, and less tax money being wasted on paying for fledgling hockey teams.

Trying to keep this as tame as I can... Just look at 21st Century Republicans at the national level. There is a double standard about spending when a Republican is present vs. a Democrat (compare W. Bush years to Obama years as each had 6 years of Republican-held Congresses). Also, "small government"... There are areas they want the government to be small, have less oversight and regulation in, but that does not apply across the board, as some of their critics have accused them of (namely in areas of women's health & medicine). As for state legislatures and hockey funding...

People in state legislatures come from all over, including smaller areas or rural areas and are lower down on the hierarchy of legislatures. Think of them as the AHL to the US Congress's NHL. The caliber of knowledge, experience, savviness can be on that level. There are oblivious fools at all levels, but generally, the average Congressman is going to have more political skill than the average state legislator (although that may have changed in the past decade as what portions of the electorate look for in their representatives have changed along with attributes previously considered positives now being seen as strong negatives). It would be easier for business interests, PR firms to give them the runaround, as we saw happened to the Glendale city council prior. Scruggs ran a city with a quarter of a million people that was a suburb of a top 20 metro area, but she ran the city with a mentality that seemed suited to a locale under 50,000 in a more rural area. She was out of her league with delusions of grandeur for Glendale and wasn't mentally equipped or surrounded with the right people to adequately deal with high profile businesses like the NHL. Additionally, donations can go a long way to buying influence and the further down to the local level one goes with a government, the more value per dollar lobbyists and their clients get.

Beyond that, when it comes to sports teams, sometimes state governments or city governments get spooked and don't want to be blamed for a team departing under their watch and so they give in to whatever demands the owner makes. This is a more understandable threat for city or county politicians, but seems like a stretch for state politicians (like a Congressman from Flagstaff is going to be thrown out by voters for voting no on the Coyotes bill?), except when it comes to the NFL, a result of its stature (meaning legions of fans, many passionate) and the NFL having uprooted teams prior, including overnight (Baltimore Colts). I don't know who controlled the legislature or county board in each case, but given how many instances have occurred since the 1980s, it seems safe to presume there's at least one instance of each party buckling to the demands. The most recent examples are Cobb County, GA (Braves) (though their commissioner was the one who engineered the entire scheme, not the team), Miami-Dade County (Marlins) (they did no due diligence and were really screwed by the deal they signed), and Minnesota (Vikings). The Rams were more a case of the owner wanting to go back to the larger market it came from and having no desire to maintain the team there just because it was there for the prior 20 years (the previous owner he took over from was the one who relocated the team from LA to St. Louis). It wasn't a case of St. Louis not meeting his demands, the city simply couldn't compete with LA as a market.

 

[USAUSA1]

I am no expert like you guys but it looks like the politicians will do everything in their power to keep the coyotes .

 

[halligan10]

This is one of the most intriguing story in the history of sports

 

[Llama19]

This is one of the most intriguing story in the history of sports

Especially with stuff like this...



Leagues...as in NBA and NHL...

 

[halligan10]

Especially with stuff like this...



Leagues...as in NBA and NHL...

Seattle is at the least 1-2 years away from "starting" to build a new arena unless i am missing something?

 

[MNNumbers]

Especially with stuff like this...



Leagues...as in NBA and NHL...

Basically being the key word here. Who knows how much Bettman and Silver have really said. And, anyway, back when he first signed the MOU, that was assumed on the part of NBA.

I don't see this being a big deal.

Now, Hansen and one other guy talking about NHL owners, that's a bigger deal, imo. Still, I don't trust it.

 

[TheLegend]

Especially with stuff like this...



Leagues...as in NBA and NHL...

Always been a foregone conclusion there fellah.

 

[Llama19]

Seattle is at the least 1-2 years away from "starting" to build a new arena unless i am missing something?

Correct...that is why the Key Arena would be a 'temporary' facility to 'play there' until the new one is completed...

Acceptable to both leagues...

The question is...who will be the first dance partner...

Basically being the key word here. Who knows how much Bettman and Silver have really said. And, anyway, back when he first signed the MOU, that was assumed on the part of NBA.

I don't see this being a big deal.

Now, Hansen and one other guy talking about NHL owners, that's a bigger deal, imo. Still, I don't trust it.

Trust, but verify...

 

[MNNumbers]

Legend,

Are you still owing me a discussion about $$ losses for IA, in the wake of the failure of the 15M/yr AMF?

 

[halligan10]

Correct...that is why the Key Arena would be a 'temporary' facility to 'play there' until the new one is completed...

Acceptable to both leagues...

The question is...who will be the first dance partner...



Trust, but verify...

So the NHL would accept to play in Key Arena without being 100% sure that a new arena is going to be built

 

[Llama19]

So the NHL would accept to play in Key Arena without being 100% sure that a new arena is going to be built

Correct...should 'LeBlanc's Bill' fail to pass in the State Legislature...

Seattle was ready last time...had the Glendale Council not voted to keep them...

I am sure that they are still ready...this time, too...

Sources: http://deadspin.com/the-coyotes-were-damned-close-to-moving-to-seattle-1643791488 and http://q13fox.com/2013/06/16/report-seattle-in-line-to-get-nhls-coyotes-if-deal-falls-apart-in-ariz/

 

[Killion]

So the NHL would accept to play in Key Arena without being 100% sure that a new arena is going to be built

Yeah, not so sure about that. At minimum I would think only with shovels in the ground and an expedited construction schedule.

 

[TheLegend]

Legend,

Are you still owing me a discussion about $$ losses for IA, in the wake of the failure of the 15M/yr AMF?

Yep.... actually went back last night and saved your post on my PC so I couldn't lose it.

Haven't been online long enough to type up a complete reply yet but I'm looking at a starting point of $9 million (which is was the additional monies paid on top of what was presumed costs to operating GRA and working from there.

We're probably going to end up with numbers similar to each other though.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Always been a foregone conclusion there fellah.

NBA and WNBA. Don't laugh.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Correct...that is why the Key Arena would be a 'temporary' facility to 'play there' until the new one is completed...

Acceptable to both leagues...

The question is...who will be the first dance partner...



Trust, but verify...

AND WHAT HAS that got to do w/ anything, both leagues have already stated NO to Key, even as a temporary option, have folks forgotten where was Seattle in the expansion process? SAME exact place they are now, waiting on an arena, there are no options available to bring pro basketball ie the Sonics back to Seattle, and Arizona's thread shouldn't be derailed until LeBlanc has fully committed to Arizona

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

NBA and WNBA. Don't laugh.

the Storm, as you recall, were sold by the Basketball Group before the Sonics went to OKC, AND HAVE THRIVED ever since then

can the Mercury say that after cohabitating w/ the Suns?

 

[TheLegend]

AND WHAT HAS that got to do w/ anything, both leagues have already stated NO to Key, even as a temporary option, have folks forgotten where was Seattle in the expansion process? SAME exact place they are now, waiting on an arena, there are no options available to bring pro basketball ie the Sonics back to Seattle, and Arizona's thread shouldn't be derailed until LeBlanc has fully committed to Arizona

As it stands now.... Key Arena isn't viable, but it could be reconditioned in the relative short term to be a temporary venue if the SoDo arena project gets off the ground.

Never underestimate what the leagues will or will not do. They'll say a venue "isn't acceptable" in order to get a new modern one going.

 

[Peter Skudra]

This needs to stop. It has and continues to look bad on the league. The only plus is that it has been going on for SO LONG people simply don't care anymore.

When this garbage started almost 8 years ago....I think everyone expected it would get solved within a few months...maybe a year. 8 years later and we're still here. The team has been in limbo the entire time.....people have grown so tired of this story nobody is even covering it anymore. That's a good thing for the NHL I guess, but having a franchise's woes become so normal that people stop caring isn't a good thing.

If I'm Bettman.....I'd be polling the Owners to see if they'd support taking over control of the franchise. I assume their by-laws allow it and/or the debt owed by the Coyotes to the league would allow it.

Any sort of near majority to take over the Coyotes would be met with immediate scouting of places like Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Portland, Milwaukee, Houston and Seattle if they can get their act together.

If some sort of alignment fix could be figured out.....Quebec City, Hamilton, Cleveland and Hartford would also be looked into.

Again, if I'm still Bettman.....I'd be looking at ANY market that appears sustainable, has a decent venue and a possible Owner. This relocation would be similar to Atlanta to Winnipeg.....a deal. Just end the pain.

The NHL for some reason feels relocating this team would be bad......meanwhile the NFL....the biggest league in North America is shuffling teams all over. They have solid franchises moving and playing in a tiny stadium until a new one is built. But, the NHL won't move a problem franchise to a better market (for them) with an adequate building.

Why?

I don't get it. Why is the NHL allowing this to go on for the better part of a decade....considering if any of these hail mary arena proposals in the Phoenix area actually happen (even though the team is currently playing in a relatively new arena) it will have been a decade of ongoing shenanigans. IF that happens....that doesn't mean the shenanigans stop either.....a new rink anywhere other than Glendale doesn't automatically mean this franchise will do any better. It could make the NHL appear even worse....instead of bailing on one city that bought them an arena, they could bail on two.

Just end this garbage already.....never in the long history of the NHL has one franchise been such a problem. It needs to be solved....the NHL can always go back to the Phoenix area when things look better.

At some point someone needs to say enough is enough....put their foot down. This franchise has brought nothing but problems to the league and now they are running around looking for cheap arenas with apparent subsidies while they are currently playing in a relatively new arena. End this, soon. Even if they happen to swing a new arena deal in the area.....they've been holding their few (and I mean few) local fans in limbo for 8 years. Ya think people are suddenly, in the same region, going to do a 180 and buy into this thing?

Glendale is getting jerked around, the local fans are getting jerked around, other markets are getting jerked around, the league is getting jerked around.....taxpayers are getting jerked around......just cut it out already. FFS....if this latest arena plan gets shot down (and it will) the NHL needs to end this, at whatever cost.

Not really necessary as it appears this ownership group is willing to continue owning the franchise, relocating to Portland or Seattle as a backup plan if they cannot get a new arena deal in Arizona sorted by the time the Glendale lease expires.

 

[Montrealer]

I don't think that's it, although that's a good info find. Glendale has a similar arrangement, where in partial exchange for the public's investment, high school sports will get some use of the facility. It's good for optics, if nothing else, and does nicely spread the benefits of the building around to young people.

As posted above, I think the Wild have the much higher operating costs than most arenas because they manage a three-building complex that includes an arena, a center for trade shows, and a large public events auditorium. The Wild actually manage three facilities, not one. If IA was trying to make it look like their "cost" of $24.4 million is somehow within the normal range because of the Wild's high figure, they're being disingenuous. IA is only proposing to manage one building, not several.

If I'm a legislator and that distinction isn't made clear to me (and there was no asterisk or explanation on that slide we saw), then I'm either real suspicious that their research is lousy, and then why should I trust their other numbers; or I'm furious that they're hoodwinking me with apples and oranges comparisons.

Either way, I tell them to take a flying leap (obligatory transportation reference there) and they don't get my vote.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense too.

You're right, the lack of detail means the chart (and claim the Coyotes will be "investing" more than the majority of teams meaningless.

 

[Llama19]

Not really necessary as it appears this ownership group is willing to continue owning the franchise, relocating to Portland or Seattle as a backup plan if they cannot get a new arena deal in Arizona sorted by the time the Glendale lease expires.

And, that is what LeBlanc has in the Senate Committee forwarding 'his' bill out of committee...

It is like getting in the mail, from your local car dealership, a key to a brand new car for free...

All you have to do is come down to the dealership, step up to the car, insert the key, and then turn it...

What? It did not work? So sorry...we have a nice little number away over here you may be interested in, for a low, low payment...

(See what I did there, WildGopher... )

 

[cbcwpg]

http://arizonasports.com/story/1025913/suns-rank-14th-forbes-ranking-nba-franchise-value/

Based on 2015-16 numbers, Forbes reports the Suns value at $1.1 billion, with revenue of $173 million and operating income of $26.3 million.

***

That operating income... see how it is a positive number and not a loss... that's why the Suns aren't exactly entertaining the idea of hooking up with the Coyotes in a new arena. They want to keep that as a positive number.

 

[Llama19]

http://arizonasports.com/story/1025913/suns-rank-14th-forbes-ranking-nba-franchise-value/

Based on 2015-16 numbers, Forbes reports the Suns value at $1.1 billion, with revenue of $173 million and operating income of $26.3 million.

***

That operating income... see how it is a positive number and not a loss... that's why the Suns aren't exactly entertaining the idea of hooking up with the Coyotes in a new arena. They want to keep that as a positive number.

Yeah...positive numbers? Coming from LeBlanc?

Reminds me of what Judge Redfeld T. Baum said during the original Coyotes 2009 bankruptcy hearings when he read this, from an NHL expert's own report:

To quote:

'How to make a small fortune by owning a professional sports franchise.'

Start with a large fortune and buy an NHL franchise.

Sources: Professional Sports Team Bankruptcy videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKnjQ_TQUsI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f19wHHtZIm4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpEqgnUOM7M

 

[j1012]

As it stands now.... Key Arena isn't viable, but it could be reconditioned in the relative short term to be a temporary venue if the SoDo arena project gets off the ground.

Never underestimate what the leagues will or will not do. They'll say a venue "isn't acceptable" in order to get a new modern one going.

In Hansen's original MOU, he has allocated $$ to be used to get Key into being a temporary arena, so you are correct.

It looks like it wouldn't be known until summer on how the city will vote, BUT if a team shows up, that will change things

 

[aqib]

Yeah, not so sure about that. At minimum I would think only with shovels in the ground and an expedited construction schedule.

McNichols Arena wasn't good for hockey when the Avalanche went there, but the idea was a new arena would get built sooner rather than later. The Avalanche's Cup and the Rangers trying to poach Joe Sakic pushed it over the edge.