Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[TheLegend]

I don't buy it.

What does Wild owns in Minnesota that brings their cost to $25M. Heck what any of other teams owns beside their arena to justify their costs ???

Or did Leblanc and cie just compare apples with oranges ?

Not sure what Minnesota pays either and that figure also surprised me. Interesting though that they showed an average of $14 million for all their examples and they come in at 75-80% higher. If I were going to present something that showed my costs were comparable I would be picking something a bit closer than that.

 

[WildGopher]

I don't buy it.

What does Wild owns in Minnesota that brings their cost to $25M. Heck what any of other teams owns beside their arena to justify their costs ???

Or did Leblanc and cie just compare apples with oranges ?

Maybe the answer is that the Wild manage a complex, not just an arena. They have the Xcel Energy Center, where the Wild play; River Centre, a facility for trade shows; and Wilkins Arena, the former St. Paul Auditorium, a 1930's building once used for hockey, but now used for smaller events and shows. All are adjacent. You might be right that they're comparing apples and oranges, trying to show $25 million is in the range of costs to manage an arena, when in fact, the Wild are managing three facilities. They keep them fairly busy, too, even though nearby Minneapolis has an arena and convention center to compete with.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I don't see any evidence they will ask for a 24 million dollar subsidy. They'll be looking for a subsidy, but it'll more than likely be in the 10-15 range.

I think everyone's latching onto a non-relevant number.

 

[Llama19]

Taxpayer money: Education funding or new Coyotes arena?

Source (Video): http://www.12news.com/news/local/va...cation-funding-or-new-coyotes-arena/408769625

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Taxpayer money: Education funding or new Coyotes arena?

Source (Video): http://www.12news.com/news/local/va...cation-funding-or-new-coyotes-arena/408769625

Actually:

If you drink most types of snake venom, little will happen to you, provided you don’t have any microabrasions or cuts in your mouth. If you do, you will be envenomated, of course.

But most snake venoms aren’t toxic to consume, as digestive acid deactivates them.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I don't see any evidence they will ask for a 24 million dollar subsidy. They'll be looking for a subsidy, but it'll more than likely be in the 10-15 range.

I think everyone's latching onto a non-relevant number.

What does it matter? The number is irrelevant; a handout is a handout. This went from "not costing the taxpayers a dime", to $225 million of public money plus additional annual "maintenance" costs in a red hot minute.

Clearly this new arena & the move across town is just window dressing & proof positive that regardless of their location & yet another brand new building, this team CANNOT survive without Arizona taxpayers absorbing their losses.

Any elected official who supports this plan should be public enemy #1 to the voters come election day. Shameful.

 

[Jeffrey93]

This needs to stop. It has and continues to look bad on the league. The only plus is that it has been going on for SO LONG people simply don't care anymore.

When this garbage started almost 8 years ago....I think everyone expected it would get solved within a few months...maybe a year. 8 years later and we're still here. The team has been in limbo the entire time.....people have grown so tired of this story nobody is even covering it anymore. That's a good thing for the NHL I guess, but having a franchise's woes become so normal that people stop caring isn't a good thing.

If I'm Bettman.....I'd be polling the Owners to see if they'd support taking over control of the franchise. I assume their by-laws allow it and/or the debt owed by the Coyotes to the league would allow it.

Any sort of near majority to take over the Coyotes would be met with immediate scouting of places like Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Portland, Milwaukee, Houston and Seattle if they can get their act together.

If some sort of alignment fix could be figured out.....Quebec City, Hamilton, Cleveland and Hartford would also be looked into.

Again, if I'm still Bettman.....I'd be looking at ANY market that appears sustainable, has a decent venue and a possible Owner. This relocation would be similar to Atlanta to Winnipeg.....a deal. Just end the pain.

The NHL for some reason feels relocating this team would be bad......meanwhile the NFL....the biggest league in North America is shuffling teams all over. They have solid franchises moving and playing in a tiny stadium until a new one is built. But, the NHL won't move a problem franchise to a better market (for them) with an adequate building.

Why?

I don't get it. Why is the NHL allowing this to go on for the better part of a decade....considering if any of these hail mary arena proposals in the Phoenix area actually happen (even though the team is currently playing in a relatively new arena) it will have been a decade of ongoing shenanigans. IF that happens....that doesn't mean the shenanigans stop either.....a new rink anywhere other than Glendale doesn't automatically mean this franchise will do any better. It could make the NHL appear even worse....instead of bailing on one city that bought them an arena, they could bail on two.

Just end this garbage already.....never in the long history of the NHL has one franchise been such a problem. It needs to be solved....the NHL can always go back to the Phoenix area when things look better.

At some point someone needs to say enough is enough....put their foot down. This franchise has brought nothing but problems to the league and now they are running around looking for cheap arenas with apparent subsidies while they are currently playing in a relatively new arena. End this, soon. Even if they happen to swing a new arena deal in the area.....they've been holding their few (and I mean few) local fans in limbo for 8 years. Ya think people are suddenly, in the same region, going to do a 180 and buy into this thing?

Glendale is getting jerked around, the local fans are getting jerked around, other markets are getting jerked around, the league is getting jerked around.....taxpayers are getting jerked around......just cut it out already. FFS....if this latest arena plan gets shot down (and it will) the NHL needs to end this, at whatever cost.

 

[Boris Zubov]

The NHL couldn't care less about looking bad. This is the league that had 4 work stoppages in 21 seasons, including the cancellation on an entire season. Clearly they have zero concerns about public image.

The only thing the NHL cares about is money. So if the idiotic politicians of the State of Arizona are dumb enough to build this franchise another new arena & offer them another subsidy, the NHL will wait this out as long as it takes...bad publicity notwithstanding.

 

[Fenway]

Looking from afar - I can not understand why the Suns and Coyotes can't work together for a new arena downtown.

The Suns are far more entrenched in Phoenix being there since 1968 and they want to be top dog and that honestly is fair.

Glendale sold snake oil and wound up with the Cardinals, Coyotes, Dodgers and White Sox. From what I have read the Dodgers want to move ST back to Florida and the White Sox now wish they had never left Florida. The Cardinals are content as with only 10 openings a year + playoffs they can sell Glendale.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Looking from afar - I can not understand why the Suns and Coyotes can't work together for a new arena downtown.

The Suns are far more entrenched in Phoenix being there since 1968 and they want to be top dog and that honestly is fair.

Glendale sold snake oil and wound up with the Cardinals, Coyotes, Dodgers and White Sox. From what I have read the Dodgers want to move ST back to Florida and the White Sox now wish they had never left Florida. The Cardinals are content as with only 10 openings a year + playoffs they can sell Glendale.

The Suns want complete control over their new digs.

 

[cbcwpg]

Looking from afar - I can not understand why the Suns and Coyotes can't work together for a new arena downtown.

Because the Coyotes have always operated at a substantial loss and anyone who partners with them will be on the losing end, maybe not in the negative, but still losing on what they could have had by themselves. Unless the Suns could get some outside entity, like what ever city they are in, to subsidize the hockey teams losses.

IE: Just fake numbers to explain my point. Lets say the Suns had a new arena and were the only main tenant and they were clearing $30 million a year based on their team events and all other events. Now along come the Coyotes with 41 more event days. You would think, great, 41 more events to fill in the calendar... except the team playing in those 41 days loses money ever time they step on the ice. So instead of the Suns making $30 million a year the Suns/Coyotes partnership is now making $10 million.

This is along the lines as to why ASG kicked the Thrashers out in Atlanta. They thought they could make more money by either replacing the hockey games with other events or just by getting rid of the events ( the hockey team ) they were losing money on.

If you were the Suns and had a building to yourself with all the positive revenues, why would you want to partner with the Coyotes who will most likely only reduce your revenues?

 

[Acesolid]

Looking from afar - I can not understand why the Suns and Coyotes can't work together for a new arena downtown.

The Suns are far more entrenched in Phoenix being there since 1968 and they want to be top dog and that honestly is fair.

Glendale sold snake oil and wound up with the Cardinals, Coyotes, Dodgers and White Sox. From what I have read the Dodgers want to move ST back to Florida and the White Sox now wish they had never left Florida. The Cardinals are content as with only 10 openings a year + playoffs they can sell Glendale.

Because the Coyotes are a money pit. And each year the Coyotes need to find (steal) around 25 million dollars to not be bankrupt.

They got the money from Glendale and the NHL in recent years. But they need a new sucker now. And the Suns dont want to be it.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Looking from afar - I can not understand why the Suns and Coyotes can't work together for a new arena downtown.

The Suns are far more entrenched in Phoenix being there since 1968 and they want to be top dog and that honestly is fair.

Glendale sold snake oil and wound up with the Cardinals, Coyotes, Dodgers and White Sox. From what I have read the Dodgers want to move ST back to Florida and the White Sox now wish they had never left Florida. The Cardinals are content as with only 10 openings a year + playoffs they can sell Glendale.

Remember that old college roommate who drank your milk, never did the dishes and borrowed your car without ever gassing it up?

"Yeah, sorry Tony, me and Bob are just gonna get our own place next year. Good luck."

 

[Mightygoose]

OK, I think we can now all agree having the Suns and Coyotes share and arena unless they're under the same ownership is not doable

Which brings this back to this revised proposal sitting in the legislature that it will 'only' cost the host city 55 million to help build a new arena.

Even though this bill should it pass expires at the end of 2018 so accordingly to Worsley, it cannot be used for any teams besides the Coyotes since the Suns and D-Backs still have valid leases. What's stopping from any of those team's getting the right people on their side to create brand new bills for future sessions when the time comes?

If this passes, surely the Suns can draw water from the same well as they're a higher profile team anyways. Something, I'm hoping those in the Rules committee can scrutinize this and many of the other selling points made in Tuesday's slideshow.

 

[Montrealer]

Slide 8 above seems to suggest that Nashville has no arena occupancy costs at all and in fact makes a couple of millions dollars a year. Im not sure what that means.

This seems to be suggesting how much the Coyotes will "invest" in the arena per year, not a subsidy from Mesa to run the arena. Notice Nashville is showing a negative investment, implying that they don't offset fully the subsidy they receive from the city of Nashville to play in the arena ($3.8M IIRC) with investments in the arena itself (which is owned by the local sports authority and county).

Now, how are they calculating these investments? Who knows. Funny math I'm sure, but they're definitely trying to show how amazing a partner they will be by portraying a ridiculous amount of annual investment into the facility. Unless they're planning on ripping and replacing substantial portions of the arena every summer it doesn't make any sense.

 

[cbcwpg]

This seems to be suggesting how much the Coyotes will "invest" in the arena per year, not a subsidy from Mesa to run the arena.

Now, how are they calculating these investments? Who knows. Funny math I'm sure, but they're definitely trying to show how amazing a partner they will be by portraying a ridiculous amount of annual investment into the facility. Unless they're planning on ripping and replacing substantial portions of the arena every summer it doesn't make any sense.

It's just all a play on words.

When the Coyotes say "investment" they are just saying that to make it sound like they are putting more money into the team/arena than other teams/cities to make it all work. See, see how invested we are in the Coyotes. We "invest" more than any one else on just the arena so we must be good owners and serious about the team being in Arizona.

The chart does say "investment" , but it also says "Occupancy Costs". Paying the bills to run the facility is "paying the bills" not "investing" .

And of course, we don't know if part of or all of the $24.4 million will somehow be from a subsidy, but given the historical track record of this ownership group and how they absolutely needed $15 million from Glendale, it is a very fair question to ask where the Coyotes ownership group are going to get $24.4 million per year to "invest" in the arena. If IA had that kind of money to "invest" each year on just the arena, they never would have needed a subsidy from Glendale.

 

[Llama19]

Kern Warns of Procedural Tricks Regarding Taxpayer-Funded Arena

To quote:

"“Procedural tricks in the Senate are now being used to circumvent the legislative process and hide the grim reality from the taxpayers directly affected by these bills,†said Representative Kern. “The original bill, SB 1474, could not stand on its own merit and didn’t have the correct number of votes necessary to advance the Senate Commerce & Public Safety Committee it was originally assigned to. This disservice to the citizens of the state who should not be responsible for funding yet another sports arena.â€"

Source: https://arizonadailyindependent.com...dural-tricks-regarding-taxpayer-funded-arena/

From the companion article: http://www.scottsdalecitizen.com/2017/02/15/roberts-a-225-million-subsidy-for-coyotes-really/

To quote:

"“This arrangement would also work for the arts and music theater Worsley and his wife are proposing in Mesa. No conflict of interest in this, is there?â€"

Hmmm...that seems to be the Mesa connection that was missing before...

 

[MNNumbers]

Any word on the Rules Committee schedule today?

Or, on 1404?

 

[SunDancer]

The NHL couldn't care less about looking bad. This is the league that had 4 work stoppages in 21 seasons, including the cancellation on an entire season. Clearly they have zero concerns about public image.

The only thing the NHL cares about is money. So if the idiotic politicians of the State of Arizona are dumb enough to build this franchise another new arena & offer them another subsidy, the NHL will wait this out as long as it takes...bad publicity notwithstanding.

This is quite accurate. The lockouts are a perfect example but you could also add participation in the Olympics, rule changes, advertising on jerseys, the expansion process, questioning concussion science, virtually any negotiation with the PA, etc, etc. Even something simple like renaming the divisions is met with widespread ridicule and the NHL always seems oblivious to the public's opinion.

However, something that is important to them any situation (besides lining their pockets) is that everything must be done on their terms. This is one reason why the issue with the Coyotes is unlikely to change in the near future because the NHL won't accept someone else forcing their hand (Balsillie, Goldwater, Glendale, ASU, etc). They've stubbornly staked their claim to AZ ... so they'd rather keep rolling that Coyotes boulder uphill for eternity.

 

[Llama19]

Any word on the Rules Committee schedule today?

Or, on 1404?

The Rules Committee will not meet again this week...as Monday (their regular, recurring day) is a holiday, there is no posted schedule (yet) on their next meeting...

 

[MNNumbers]

The Rules Committee will not meet again this week...as Monday (their regular, recurring day) is a holiday, there is no posted schedule (yet) on their next meeting...

Ah. This is what makes popcorn sales go up. There are 10 days worth of legislative intrigue between now and then.

What about the SB 1404? Do you or WG have any news on that yet today?

 

[GuelphStormer]

I wonder if these recent developments have resulted in more ticket sales.

 

[Glacial]

The Rules Committee will not meet again this week...as Monday (their regular, recurring day) is a holiday, there is no posted schedule (yet) on their next meeting...

So you're saying a possible vote will be in two weeks?

 

[SunDancer]

At what point does Glendale play hard ball with the Coyotes? Up until now they've been relatively quiet but issuing the team an ultimatum could make sense if a new competing arena and the loss of their primary tenant become a real threat. The fact that the Coyotes' lease comes up for renewal mid-season could be potentially problematic for Mr. Leblanc.

In any case, considering that prior to becoming the mayor of Glendale, Mr. Weiers served 4 terms in the State Legislature representing the West Valley, you have to imagine he's been working the phones recently and calling up a few of his old mates.

 

[cobra427]

This is quite accurate. The lockouts are a perfect example but you could also add participation in the Olympics, rule changes, advertising on jerseys, the expansion process, questioning concussion science, virtually any negotiation with the PA, etc, etc. Even something simple like renaming the divisions is met with widespread ridicule and the NHL always seems oblivious to the public's opinion.

However, something that is important to them any situation (besides lining their pockets) is that everything must be done on their terms. This is one reason why the issue with the Coyotes is unlikely to change in the near future because the NHL won't accept someone else forcing their hand (Balsillie, Goldwater, Glendale, ASU, etc). They've stubbornly staked their claim to AZ ... so they'd rather keep rolling that Coyotes boulder uphill for eternity.

Indeed, this is a math equation for the NHL and their owners. Long term they believe the Phoenix market will work. In the short term, they won't allow the Coyotes to move and diminish the next expansion fee. Even if the NHL has to prop up the Coyotes for a few more years, it is still cheaper then giving up a 500 mill+ franchise fee in the next few years. One way or the other, as I have said all along, the team is staying in Phoenix.