Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[Llama19]

Not to go too far off topic, but with the existing Arizona political climate, this could be a bellwether to the issues surrounding LeBlanc's 'bill'...

How a tax-cut bill met its demise at the Arizona Legislature

To quote (just a few key items):

"Both Republicans and Democrats said they have problems with the state picking winners and losers, that is, which businesses or industries get relief from taxpayers and which do not. It's a perennial debate at the Legislature when it comes to doling out tax breaks, and splits Democrats and Republicans alike.

"I don't have $10 million in my pocket to fund this program," said [Rep. Vince] Leach, who is a member of the House Appropriations Committee.

Many Democrats said the state needs to boost education funding, rather than continue to hand out tax breaks.

If lawmakers really want to invest in Arizona, they should put that money into education [where Gov Ducey is calling for $114MM in new money], said Rep. Isela Blanc, D-Tempe.

A number of lawmakers said a refundable tax credit amounts to the state giving a gift to a business — something barred in the state's Constitution.

House Speaker J.D. Mesnard, R-Chandler, didn't go that far, preferring to call the idea of letting a business cash in up to $2.5 million in an unused credit a "subsidy.""

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...-met-its-demise-arizona-legislature/97877454/

 

[PCSPounder]

Time to resurrect an old question. If Paul Allen lays $200 million cash and assumes the debt, is it announced as a $400 million purchase?

Is the goal to collect all cash, or is inflating the purchase price an option?

 

[Roadrage]

well long past 2009, the only thing that was never truly determined was Moyes placing the franchise into BK, Roadrage, and that decision was never truly answered either in New York or in Arizona, but we're well past that now....

Not sure what your trying to convey. Just because it's long past 2009, doesn't mean the NHL cannot be in control of this franchise still/again. Money is money and if IA doesn't have enough to cover for operations, etc. and have possibly maxed out any available borrowing and advancement avenues, there is only 1 option left for the league and that is to assume the controls.

 

[WildGopher]

Time to resurrect an old question. If Paul Allen lays $200 million cash and assumes the debt, is it announced as a $400 million purchase?

Is the goal to collect all cash, or is inflating the purchase price an option?

Oh, yes, the NHL has every incentive to include debts to make this thing look as close as possible to $500 million as they can. Not only will they include all debt, but probably figure in future interest on that debt, anything they have to pay to fulfill the extension on the lease, the cost for the moving trucks, a nice present for the new owner's wife, since he'll be super-busy with the move on Mother's Day - you'll be amazed at all they can add to make this sale of a $150 million dollar franchise (if that) look like a bonanza sale at or more than $400-$500 million. I wouldn't trust those books as far as I could even get access to them (which no one will, of course), but that's what they'll claim!

 

[The Feckless Puck]

BTW, any of you holding onto the pet theory that the Coyotes are moving to Las Vegas at the end of the season - Vegas just signed their first player today, which really kind of puts the whole "waiting for the moving vans to arrive" idea to bed.

 

[WildGopher]

Not to go too far off topic, but with the existing Arizona political climate, this could be a bellwether to the issues surrounding LeBlanc's 'bill'...

How a tax-cut bill met its demise at the Arizona Legislature

To quote (just a few key items):

"Both Republicans and Democrats said they have problems with the state picking winners and losers, that is, which businesses or industries get relief from taxpayers and which do not. It's a perennial debate at the Legislature when it comes to doling out tax breaks, and splits Democrats and Republicans alike.

"I don't have $10 million in my pocket to fund this program," said [Rep. Vince] Leach, who is a member of the House Appropriations Committee.

Many Democrats said the state needs to boost education funding, rather than continue to hand out tax breaks.

If lawmakers really want to invest in Arizona, they should put that money into education [where Gov Ducey is calling for $114MM in new money], said Rep. Isela Blanc, D-Tempe.

A number of lawmakers said a refundable tax credit amounts to the state giving a gift to a business — something barred in the state's Constitution.

House Speaker J.D. Mesnard, R-Chandler, didn't go that far, preferring to call the idea of letting a business cash in up to $2.5 million in an unused credit a "subsidy.""

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...-met-its-demise-arizona-legislature/97877454/

That's not off-topic at all. It speaks to LeBlanc's challenge - in a year when everyone seems to be screaming for more education funding, and where it sounds like the politicians have made some commitments to do that, any other new expenditure that seems to cut into that is going to raise a lot of howls. And politicians really don't like those kind of howls coming from the public, as much as they'd prefer for the Yotes to remain in AZ, generating howls from inside their arena (wherever that is).

 

[MNNumbers]

Ask...and (sometimes) ye shall receive...

From Glendale's Follow Your MONEY web site:
http://www.glendaleaz.com/FollowYourMoney/Dept.cfm

Captial Projects > Capital Repair - Arena (Two payments) - http://www.glendaleaz.com/FollowYourMoney/Dept.cfm?Type=2&DeptID=800
Transaction date, 07/01/16 - $500,000
Transaction date, 02/28/17 - $500,000

(These are payments to AEG, totaling $1,000,000)

Non-Departmental > Fund 1000 Non-Dept > Arena Renewal & Replacement - http://www.glendaleaz.com/FollowYourMoney/Dept.cfm?Type=5&DeptID=244&DivID=11801&Account=516300
Amount: $5,000,000

(I believe this is the last remaining payment to the NHL, but there is no specific 'Vendor Name' on the transaction to verify...)

Non-Departmental > Fund 1000 Non-Dept > Professional and Contractual (Three payments) - http://www.glendaleaz.com/FollowYourMoney/Dept.cfm?Type=5&DeptID=244&DivID=11801&Account=518200

Transaction date, 07/01/16 - $2,800,000
Transaction date, 09/30/16 - $1,400,000
Transaction date, 12/30/16 - $1,400,000

(These are payments to AEG, totaling $5,600,000)

Unlike the previous Monthly Arena Reports being done when IceArizona was the 'arena manager,' there are no further breakdown of costs being reported under the existing AEG contract...

Very cool, but what I am after is deposits. I am wondering if there is profit, because at the end of the fiscal year, whatever is in that account gets divided according to the contract with AEG.

 

[MNNumbers]

$85 Million in debt initially, plus $50 million interest free five year loan for operating fund from the NHL. That was before the LOC even existed. It was the whole reason of getting Barroway on board remember. Because the Canadian owners could not access the LOC for Taxes reason. My theory is Barroway came in when the operating fund was exhausted. IA is probably digging in the LOC to cover loss ever since.

It 85M from Fortress and 85M in operating loan with no interest.

That's why the better way to do it is to analyze losses, and figure they come out of the NHL debt load. Then see what's left.

Whatever IA put in initially, they will get back out, plus their losses. There is enough $$ in a 500M to make IA whole, and still leave NHL with a profit. At least so far, there is.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Not sure what your trying to convey. Just because it's long past 2009, doesn't mean the NHL cannot be in control of this franchise still/again. Money is money and if IA doesn't have enough to cover for operations, etc. and have possibly maxed out any available borrowing and advancement avenues, there is only 1 option left for the league and that is to assume the controls.

NO, Roadrage, this franchise has had enough of the ownership issues, and the NHL is no longer involved on a day to day basis "crisis" since IA took over.... until the franchise is sold, but then again, it's not been moved unless there's a bylaw infraction, similar to what Moyes did during BK...

BOG wouldn't have approved IA, if there were issues, then, and have shown nothing to warrant them from being removed as owners.

 

[CasualFan]

BTW, any of you holding onto the pet theory that the Coyotes are moving to Las Vegas at the end of the season - Vegas just signed their first player today, which really kind of puts the whole "waiting for the moving vans to arrive" idea to bed.

Raises hand. I still believe there is a non-trivial chance the franchise moves to LV. The entry-level contract did not change my position. Until there's an expansion draft, I don't consider it off the table. (Truly, I understand this is not a widely held belief)

 

[MNNumbers]

NO, Roadrage, this franchise has had enough of the ownership issues, and the NHL is no longer involved on a day to day basis "crisis" since IA took over.... until the franchise is sold, but then again, it's not been moved unless there's a bylaw infraction, similar to what Moyes did during BK...

BOG wouldn't have approved IA, if there were issues, then, and have shown nothing to warrant them from being removed as owners.

HUTCH,

Do you happen to have a copy of the ownership contract between IA and NHL in your possession? That's the only way you would know that what you wrote is true.

The purchase of the team, highly leveraged as it was, was done contrary to NHL by-laws. It was allowed anyway. That tells us all that "normal rules are not being applied in this case.' Since that is obvious, we have no idea what clauses may be in play which would allow NHL to force IA's hand in choices.

Please simply accept this. No one is saying that NHL is going to take control tomorrow. We are not even saying for sure that they COULD. We are simply saying that it is NOT POSSIBLE to make any assumptions about how many ownership rights IA has, because their purchase was NOT a normal purchase.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

HUTCH,

Do you happen to have a copy of the ownership contract between IA and NHL in your possession? That's the only way you would know that what you wrote is true.

The purchase of the team, highly leveraged as it was, was done contrary to NHL by-laws. It was allowed anyway. That tells us all that "normal rules are not being applied in this case.' Since that is obvious, we have no idea what clauses may be in play which would allow NHL to force IA's hand in choices.

Please simply accept this. No one is saying that NHL is going to take control tomorrow. We are not even saying for sure that they COULD. We are simply saying that it is NOT POSSIBLE to make any assumptions about how many ownership rights IA has, because their purchase was NOT a normal purchase.

all of the above, MNN, but how do we know what Moyes did was in fact illegal, under the Constitution of the NHL, THAT FACT was never settled but set aside in the BK.

TO ME, we need to stop focusing on 2009 AND PRIOR TO THAT, and focus on present day, post 2013, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED 8 + years ago, is not relevant to where this franchise is now...

if the posters who are claiming that the NHL still owns and or operates this franchise where's the proof, otherwise it's not a factor in the history.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Raises hand. I still believe there is a non-trivial chance the franchise moves to LV. The entry-level contract did not change my position. Until there's an expansion draft, I don't consider it off the table. (Truly, I understand this is not a widely held belief)

Oh, there's always a chance.

I think, though, that there is a better chance that Alice Cooper suddenly decides to buy the team and rename them the Phoenix Feed-My-Frankensteins than the Coyotes moving to Las Vegas.

 

[MNNumbers]

all of the above, MNN, but how do we know what Moyes did was in fact illegal, under the Constitution of the NHL, THAT FACT was never settled but set aside in the BK.

TO ME, we need to stop focusing on 2009 AND PRIOR TO THAT, and focus on present day, post 2013, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED 8 + years ago, is not relevant to where this franchise is now...

if the posters who are claiming that the NHL still owns and or operates this franchise where's the proof, otherwise it's not a factor in the history.

Actually, Hutch, YOU are the one focusing on 2009. You are the only one who has mentioned the BK and 2009 for about, oh, I don't know, 50 threads now.

The fact is that the NHL owned the team from 2009 to 2013.

The fact is that the NHL and IA set things to make it appear that IA bought the team, with all the usual rights of ownership, in 2013.

The fact is that, behind the scenes, that was a heavily leveraged purchased.

The fact is that, because that was a highly leveraged purchase, we DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT KIND OF RIGHTS IA HAS IN ITS OWNERSHIP.

No one, and I mean no one, including Killion, actually believes that NHL controls the franchise on a day-to-day basis. But, many of us believe that, because the NHL has financed the purchased FROM ITSELF (think about that), that the NHL has something to say about things like "How long is this team going to lose money in the desert."

Please understand that. There is a difference between 'running the day to day business' and 'being responsible in the end for 30/year losses.'

IA owns the team in the 1st category. They even signed the original lease with COG. And, then, messed it up and let Glendale cancel it.

But, many of us think that NHL still has control in the 2nd category.

However, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. Not me, not you, not Killion, not Casual Fan. No one except the BOG and IA really know.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Actually, Hutch, YOU are the one focusing on 2009. You are the only one who has mentioned the BK and 2009 for about, oh, I don't know, 50 threads now.

The fact is that the NHL owned the team from 2009 to 2013.

The fact is that the NHL and IA set things to make it appear that IA bought the team, with all the usual rights of ownership, in 2013.

The fact is that, behind the scenes, that was a heavily leveraged purchased.

The fact is that, because that was a highly leveraged purchase, we DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT KIND OF RIGHTS IA HAS IN ITS OWNERSHIP.

No one, and I mean no one, including Killion, actually believes that NHL controls the franchise on a day-to-day basis. But, many of us believe that, because the NHL has financed the purchased FROM ITSELF (think about that), that the NHL has something to say about things like "How long is this team going to lose money in the desert."

Please understand that. There is a difference between 'running the day to day business' and 'being responsible in the end for 30/year losses.'

IA owns the team in the 1st category. They even signed the original lease with COG. And, then, messed it up and let Glendale cancel it.

But, many of us think that NHL still has control in the 2nd category.

However, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. Not me, not you, not Killion, not Casual Fan. No one except the BOG and IA really know.

I get that, but I get also tired of the redundancy, if none of us truly know, MNN, then why discuss it if there's no concise answer, why waste time/effort rehashing something endlessly, that's why I go back to BK constantly to keep a point straight

 

[MNNumbers]

I get that, but I get also tired of the redundancy, if none of us truly know, MNN, then why discuss it if there's no concise answer, why waste time/effort rehashing something endlessly, that's why I go back to BK constantly to keep a point straight

Well, here's the idea....

Since we don't know, and we do know there are losses, we guess what might be happening next. It's conjecture, to a certain extent. And, it all revolves around what is happening behind the scenes TODAY.

2009 and BK and Moyes putting the team there obviously WAS legal. The court ruled on who what was set before them, and never said Moyes couldn't do that. So, obviously, since NHL didn't sue him about it, he had the legal right to do so. THAT'S SETTLED LAW. PLEASE DO NOT BRING IT UP, BECAUSE IT ONLY CONFUSES THE ISSUES. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO DISCUSS ABOUT IT. IT'S DONE.

 

[cbcwpg]

Just my 2$

These are the owners as stated on the NHL site:

Owner, Chairman and Governor Andrew Barroway
Co-Owner, President, CEO & Alternate Governor Anthony LeBlanc
Co-Owner & Alternate Governor Gary J Drummond
Co-Owner & Alternate Governor George Gosbee
Co-Owner & Director W David Duckett
Co-Owner & Director W R Dutton
Co-Owner & Director Robert Gwin
Co-Owner & Director Scott Saxberg
Co-Owner & Director Craig Stewart

***

I believe the NHL is letting this group run the day-to-day operations of the team without any interference, BUT, as others have said, to get to where they are today with loans and what-not, , there were some "agreements / rules/ whatever" for IA to follow.

Day-to-day... NO.

Other stuff, LeBlanc has Bettman on speed dial.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Actually, Hutch, YOU are the one focusing on 2009. You are the only one who has mentioned the BK and 2009 for about, oh, I don't know, 50 threads now.

The fact is that the NHL owned the team from 2009 to 2013.

The fact is that the NHL and IA set things to make it appear that IA bought the team, with all the usual rights of ownership, in 2013.

The fact is that, behind the scenes, that was a heavily leveraged purchased.

The fact is that, because that was a highly leveraged purchase, we DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT KIND OF RIGHTS IA HAS IN ITS OWNERSHIP.

No one, and I mean no one, including Killion, actually believes that NHL controls the franchise on a day-to-day basis. But, many of us believe that, because the NHL has financed the purchased FROM ITSELF (think about that), that the NHL has something to say about things like "How long is this team going to lose money in the desert."

Please understand that. There is a difference between 'running the day to day business' and 'being responsible in the end for 30/year losses.'

IA owns the team in the 1st category. They even signed the original lease with COG. And, then, messed it up and let Glendale cancel it.

But, many of us think that NHL still has control in the 2nd category.

However, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. Not me, not you, not Killion, not Casual Fan. No one except the BOG and IA really know.

Thank you for this well thought out, concise, sensible response.

 

[WildGopher]

However, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. Not me, not you, not Killion, not Casual Fan. No one except the BOG and IA really know.

Oh, Killion knows, believe me. I mean, have you read some of this guy's humor? He's got connections to other-world dimensions through vortexes to unknown universes of humor that the rest of us can't even comprehend; might be afraid to know about even if we could understand it. A guy like that knows what's going to happen in our primitive little three-dimensional - four if you count time - understanding of this world. Piece of cake for him, he's just not talking. He'll tell us later if he feels like it; it's the only reason I keep reading his posts, otherwise I'd be afraid that twisted way of looking at our world that can laugh at existence and see all the bizarre sides of it might rub off on me!

Speaking of people who know what's coming next, I saw a rumor somewhere - I can't remember just where, but it's apparently true - that Alice Cooper is going to buy the Yotes and change their name to the Phoenix Feed-My-Frankensteins. I'll post when I see confirmation, but this seems like the real deal. That team nickname has got a great multiple alliteration going, and those hyphens in a team name look so cool! The big news for us here on this board is that the name implies they're moving to Phoenix, so apparently Sarver caved! This is huge news!!

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Killion is a member of the simulator race, running this universe, as our universe is most likely a simulation.

Killion is reduced to interacting with the simulated through text in online forums.

 

[WildGopher]

Killion is a member of the simulator race, running this universe, as our universe is most likely a simulation.

Killion is reduced to interacting with the simulated through text in online forums.

Well, I'll take that as fact, because if anyone would know that, it would be a poster named Tom ServoMST3K!

 

[MNNumbers]

What happened in the Legislature today? And, what's posted for tomorrow? Anything concerning LeBlanc's bill?

 

[WildGopher]

OK, confirmed with link. AZ Central is saying breaking news, they'll have more later when they have time to add it to this story below, but Alice Cooper has bought the Arizona Coytes for $500,000,001, and will rename the team the Phoenix Feed-My-Frankensteins. In a brief press conference, Mr. Cooper said previous owners were too much of "nice guys," so he was going to explore what he might do differently in that regard. He also said a major problem for the team to get kids to come to games on school nights is that school is only out for summer; he will propose to the legislature that school be out for winter, too. This will reduce the amount the legislature was being asked to increase on spending for education, and that money can now be spent on an arena in Phoenix, instead. More to follow, but I think this is the long-term solution we've all been waiting for!

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...-million-arena-deal-on-life-support/98321466/

 

[Llama19]

What happened in the Legislature today? And, what's posted for tomorrow? Anything concerning LeBlanc's bill?

Nothing in the Senate related to LeBlanc's 'bill'...

Senate COW posted for tomorrow...again, no LeBlanc's 'bill' listed...

Nothing either for the House...expect agenda to be posted late Wednesday...maybe...

 

[Killion]

The purchase of the team, highly leveraged as it was, was done contrary to NHL by-laws. It was allowed anyway. That tells us all that "normal rules are not being applied in this case.' Since that is obvious, we have no idea what clauses may be in play which would allow NHL to force IA's hand in choices.

... yeah, I made that mistake long ago MNN, there are actually no "By-Laws" pursuant to the purchase of an existing team or by way of Expansion. Simply a set of procedures & standards, rules that in this case were bent beyond, way beyond the norm... in fact so far beyond what is normally expected for it to be a "non-sale" in my book & plenty of others. They just tossed standard prudent procedures & protocols, qualifiers etc right out the window. That transaction a complete & utter sham. Fake.

...if the posters who are claiming that the NHL still owns and or operates this franchise where's the proof, otherwise it's not a factor in the history.

No. Where is your proof that they do own it HUTCH? Sorry, but I dont take the word of congenital liars like Gary Bettman, Bill Daly & most certainly not that of Anthony LeBlanc, Barroway, Gosbee, Drummond or anyone else involved or associated with IceArizona. But if you want to believe they own the club then that is your prerogative, and we will simply agree to disagree on that point, one that is obviously critical & fundamental for you or for I in determining what might or might not happen here. Working from 2 different premises, beliefs, and will therefore disagree about everything.

Just my 2$

These are the owners as stated on the NHL site:

Owner, Chairman and Governor Andrew Barroway
Co-Owner, President, CEO & Alternate Governor Anthony LeBlanc
Co-Owner & Alternate Governor Gary J Drummond
Co-Owner & Alternate Governor George Gosbee
Co-Owner & Director W David Duckett
Co-Owner & Director W R Dutton
Co-Owner & Director Robert Gwin
Co-Owner & Director Scott Saxberg
Co-Owner & Director Craig Stewart

***

I believe the NHL is letting this group run the day-to-day operations of the team without any interference, BUT, as others have said, to get to where they are today with loans and what-not, , there were some "agreements / rules/ whatever" for IA to follow.

Day-to-day... NO.

Other stuff, LeBlanc has Bettman on speed dial.

This is my assumption, pages Im working off of, yes. They are being monitored, not daily, but their not in full control, havent bought the team from the NHL. Havent closed the deal, put down the cash. Rental, Lease-to-own and their not even close to making the full downpayment required and are existing on vendor financing, digging an even deeper hole for the NHL. Special emergency situation. Way off-road. Black-op's.

Killion is a member of the simulator race, running this universe, as our universe is most likely a simulation.

Killion is reduced to interacting with the simulated through text in online forums.

All true Grasshopper.... on-line forums of the electronic, harmonic & telepathic varieties. Material, immaterial.