Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[madhi19]

LeBlanc seems to have an issue as a 'serial dirtest' and should seek professional help as each location/partnership is decreasing in believability...

It appears that, one-by-one, each of these 'piles of dirt' is becoming just more dust in the wind...

How in the hell did we not use this one yet?

Phoenix CXXIV: Dust in the wind!

 

[Mightygoose]

So...who pays the $310 million for the franchise and $190 for the 'relocation fee'...Allen or Hansen...

Or Allen pays a shade over $250 mil for a 51% of the team and viola. It's worth $500 million!

 

[Fairview]

Or Allen pays a shade over $250 mil for a 51% of the team and viola. It's worth $500 million!

And IA remains in the ownership group? Yuck!

 

[Glacial]

Would $310 million even cover the debt that this ownership group and NHL has amassed over the years?

This feels like a billion dollar franchise.

 

[Peter Skudra]

And IA remains in the ownership group? Yuck!

They have only owned the team since 2013 and have not indicated any intention to sell the franchise. Expect Barroway and Leblanc to remain the majority owners of the franchise whether they stay in Arizona, or relocate to Portland or Seattle.

 

[madhi19]

They have only owned the team since 2013 and have not indicated any intention to sell the franchise. Expect Barroway and Leblanc to remain the majority owners of the franchise whether they stay in Arizona, or relocate to Portland or Seattle.

You can forget Portland if the plan is to still own this team outside Arizona for IA. No way Allen would burn 41 dates for a team he does not own just for cheap rent. His building is pretty busy as it is.

 

[Fairview]

I am not sure that I agree with the notion that the Coyotes are worth $500 million. While at this time the expansion franchise for Vegas went for that price, It doesn't necessarily follow that Arizona is worth the same. Each market is different and holds different value. The Leafs and Rangers for example are worth way more than that. The price is more what the market will bare than some arbitrary value. The NHL itself placed a value of the Coyotes at just over $300 million when BorrowAway bought in. That was with a lease subsidy of $15 million per year. That subsidy is gone now. The damage to the Coyote brand has been substantial since then and it can easily be argued that the team is worth less than the $300 million. Especially when the way the team was "purchased " was suspicious.

 

[MNNumbers]

I am not sure that I agree with the notion that the Coyotes are worth $500 million. While at this time the expansion franchise for Vegas went for that price, It doesn't necessarily follow that Arizona is worth the same. Each market is different and holds different value. The Leafs and Rangers for example are worth way more than that. The price is more what the market will bare than some arbitrary value. The NHL itself placed a value of the Coyotes at just over $300 million when BorrowAway bought in. That was with a lease subsidy of $15 million per year. That subsidy is gone now. The damage to the Coyote brand has been substantial since then and it can easily be argued that the team is worth less than the $300 million. Especially when the way the team was "purchased " was suspicious.

I would agree with this, and I would also add that I am so pleased that the events on the ground (LeBlanc reference to piles of dirt...) are tightening the screws on the options available. So, here we go....

NHL would like to believe that any team is worth 500M, so if they consider a sale for relocation, their starting price is likely 500M.

However, as you said, the value of the Coyotes, assuming the bill fails, in the Phoenix market is basically 0, because they lose money, and they have lots of debt, and there does not seem to be a change of situation coming that affords a change in those things.

Now, consider the calculus....What are the options?

1-Remain in market and lose money. At some point, IA runs bankrupt. True, at that point the NHL itself might bankroll the losses. But that doesn't seem a good option for them.

2- Remain in market for one more year, considering the possibility that next year they might have a more favorable legislature, or that the situation in another market might change. Legislature changing its mind is highly unlikely, and the Yotes have no leverage, really. There is not a large bit of love there that would be necessary to keep them in the market. One year of losses might be palatable if it changes the Seattle situation. However, no one knows what will happen there. Reading the tea leaves, my guess is that SCC chooses to remodel Key, and NBA, not NHL will be the feature. But, that's just my guess. This also is not an appealing option.

3- Move to Portland. Allen won't pay 500M, that's for sure. 200M if you are lucky. And, he is going to charge a pretty penny if IA keeps ownership.

4- Move to Seattle immediately. Bad choice. No certainty on an arena, and no market preparation done. Would IA retain ownership? If so, more losses.

5- As above, wait a year and move to Seattle then. If you knew that Hansen's project would come online, this might be ok, assuming you could get a decent lease with him. That would require a large contribution to the new arena, I am sure. And, you take your debt with you. If you sell to someone (Coleman) in a year, part of the sale price pays next year's losses, which are going to be huge in Glendale, and even then, how much is Coleman actually going to pay? Given that, at best, he is going to share an arena with an NBA team, and likely in short order. And, given that, in such a case, he won't prosper on the Arena Management. And, given that it would be a private arena in SODO, it's hard to imagine anyone paying 500M just for the team.

5a- However, if SCC does not approve the street vacation, choosing instead to remodel Key, then this doesn't work, because you have no place to play while the renovations happen. And, perhaps, SCC's definition of NHL-ready is different from Coleman's. In that case, it's a fool's errand at best. And, no one would pay 500M to move there.

6- Finally, for the BOG, Hell's choice, sell for relocation to Quebec City. This is the sale that likely garners the biggest price. Neither Portland nor Seattle are likely to prosper as much with a team as QC, for lease reasons in the case of Seattle, and market reasons in the case of Portland. But, no one wants to see a Western team move east.

So, no good options. I love this.... Poor IA. Poor Bettman. Poor BOG...

 

[madhi19]

6- Finally, for the BOG, Hell's choice, sell for relocation to Quebec City. This is the sale that likely garners the biggest price. Neither Portland nor Seattle are likely to prosper as much with a team as QC, for lease reasons in the case of Seattle, and market reasons in the case of Portland. But, no one wants to see a Western team move east.

So, no good options. I love this.... Poor IA. Poor Bettman. Poor BOG...

Quebec would get the Winnipeg treatment. Play in the Central for a couple of years with the understanding that some other dumpster fire in the East will move West anyway. Frankly it the best odds of solving the Seattle will-they-won't-they problem.

 

[Mightygoose]

Yup. Not many good options above.

If this fails in the senate then were going to continue to hear innuendos on new locations downtown and east valley while try and figure those things out.

Failing that and any of the other options above what else is left? Fold the team and give Foley the roster or......my wild doube move theory from part CXXI, post #770

 

[WildGopher]

Yup. Not many good options above.

If this fails in the senate . . . :

The Senate has posted its agenda for tomorrow's Committee of the Whole, the Senate floor stage where debate and amendments can occur on bills, and Worsley's bill is not among those posted. So it appears no action on the bill until at least Tuesday.

 

[LastWordArmy]

The Arizona Coyotes stadium bill looks like it could be dead on arrival to a vote in the full Arizona State Senate, and it would be a wise move by the state Senators. The deal with the Coyotes as it stands is a great deal for the franchise, but a terrible situation for the people of the state.

http://lastwordonhockey.com/2017/02/26/arizona-coyotes-stadium-bill/

 

[MNNumbers]

The Arizona Coyotes stadium bill looks like it could be dead on arrival to a vote in the full Arizona State Senate, and it would be a wise move by the state Senators. The deal with the Coyotes as it stands is a great deal for the franchise, but a terrible situation for the people of the state.

http://lastwordonhockey.com/2017/02/26/arizona-coyotes-stadium-bill/

^^^^^ I wish this article were a little firmer on details. Author has the right idea, but some details about the history of Glendale and the Coyotes are either inaccurate, or not fleshed out entirely.

Analysis of SB1149 seems good, however.

 

[cbcwpg]

The amount paid for a franchise is equal to the absolute need to relocate it. The more a team must be relocated the less it will cost to relocate it.

$500 million for an expansion team... sure if you can find some sucker to pay it, ask whatever you want. But, if a franchise ever gets to the point where it is effectively without a home, and the only options are relocation or folding it... you will not have to pay anywhere near $500 million. Desperation lowers the cost.

 

[Fairview]

The idea that the Coyotes have to sell for $500 million for relocation to keep Foley from being upset is a little far fetched as well. Foley would know that the Coyotes would have been available for purchase in that market at a much lower price. Well, he did not want to own the team in that market at any price.It has also been discussed in this thread earlier that he wanted to start fresh and was not interested in moving an existing team to Vegas. The price for that was set at $500 million. Why would it upset him if some other stooge bought the team for less and moved it to a place that he had no interest in moving to? In spite of the $500 million number, it has very little to do with the value of a team in other markets. The true value of any team in any market is what someone would ACTUALLY pay for the team in that market. For Vegas at this time the number is $500 million, Arizona OTOH is worth a fraction of that in that market and what someone in Portland or Quebec would pay for a team in their market is what that team is actually worth. Also, tying the value of an NHL team to what someone paid for a NBA franchise is weak. The salary structure and revenue streams of the 2 leagues are not comparable.

Is it just me or, recently has Tony done everything possible to reduce the value of the team in Arizona? When they first purchased the team, he talked about breaking even by year 3 and profitability after that..all of that at GRA.The kind of things that potential investors like to hear. Now he says things like scary losses and not workable in GRA. If the bill is rejected and the tribes do not come through, then he has made the likelihood of finding investors or another potential owner for the team in Arizona extremely remote. He is telling everyone to stay away, as this situation is a disaster. That seems like a stupid thing for him to do.

 

[WildGopher]

Is it just me or, recently has Tony done everything possible to reduce the value of the team in Arizona? When they first purchased the team, he talked about breaking even by year 3 and profitability after that..all of that at GRA.The kind of things that potential investors like to hear. Now he says things like scary losses and not workable in GRA. If the bill is rejected and the tribes do not come through, then he has made the likelihood of finding investors or another potential owner for the team in Arizona extremely remote. He is telling everyone to stay away, as this situation is a disaster. The seems like a stupid thing for him to do.

Excellent point, but if he's the salesman we think he is, he's probably just spouting what he has to to make this sale - getting someone to fund a new arena. He's not looking beyond that because he appears to be all-in to make this work in Arizona. As conjectured by others here, he probably loves the status of his gig with a major league team, wants to keep it, and probably won't have it if he sells for relocation. So it's all or nothing . . . that's one reason why I think he will pursue Phoenix and the tribes after his bill is defeated in the legislature. And one reason I think the Yotes will probably be in AZ for at least one more year.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

IA has nothing to do w/ Vegas

The idea that the Coyotes have to sell for $500 million for relocation to keep Foley from being upset is a little far fetched as well. Foley would know that the Coyotes would have been available for purchase in that market at a much lower price. Well, he did not want to own the team in that market at any price.It has also been discussed in this thread earlier that he wanted to start fresh and was not interested in moving an existing team to Vegas. The price for that was set at $500 million. Why would it upset him if some other stooge bought the team for less and moved it to a place that he had no interest in moving to? In spite of the $500 million number, it has very little to do with the value of a team in other markets. The true value of any team in any market is what someone would ACTUALLY pay for the team in that market. For Vegas at this time the number is $500 million, Arizona OTOH is worth a fraction of that in that market and what someone in Portland or Quebec would pay for a team in their market is what that team is actually worth. Also, tying the value of an NHL team to what someone paid for a NBA franchise is weak. The salary structure and revenue streams of the 2 leagues are not comparable.

Is it just me or, recently has Tony done everything possible to reduce the value of the team in Arizona? When they first purchased the team, he talked about breaking even by year 3 and profitability after that..all of that at GRA.The kind of things that potential investors like to hear. Now he says things like scary losses and not workable in GRA. If the bill is rejected and the tribes do not come through, then he has made the likelihood of finding investors or another potential owner for the team in Arizona extremely remote. He is telling everyone to stay away, as this situation is a disaster. That seems like a stupid thing for him to do.

fact is, again, Las Vegas has a franchise, and Vegas is no longer an option for any relocation once the League approved Black Night Sports/Entertainment and the expansion franchise, Fairview....

this team hasn't gone anywhere since BK, and it will likely stay in Arizona, now whether it's Glendale or not is to be determined...

the answer to your query is no, the NHL line is not involved which you have tried to perpetuate consistently, nor this far-fetched query.

fact is, and you have never answered this directly, IA is committed to the state of Arizona, otherwise Arizona would STILL BE LOOKING FOR OWNERSHIP, since 2009, not having IA vetted/approved since 2010 to 2013, AND BRINGING THE AFFILIATE TO THE STATE ON TOP OF IT IN 15/16.

 

[Killion]

Yup. Not many good options above.

If this fails in the senate then were going to continue to hear innuendos on new locations downtown and east valley while try and figure those things out.

Failing that and any of the other options above what else is left? Fold the team and give Foley the roster or......my wild doube move theory from part CXXI, post #770

If they did that, they'd be kissing their $500M Expansion Fee Payday away, those funds instead having to go to satisfy the Leagues investments & costs, paying off Citi-Bank & so on. Just how much all of that might be at this time no idea but it could well be approaching $350M or more. That would take a pretty big bite out of Foley's $500M payment to the League, I dont think it would happen but your absolutely correct to bring it up as an option, consider everything.... As for the players, if they were to do that, Contract the franchise rather than sell it off-market, they'd then hold a Dispersal Draft likely in conjunction with the Amateur Draft.

The Senate has posted its agenda for tomorrow's Committee of the Whole, the Senate floor stage where debate and amendments can occur on bills, and Worsley's bill is not among those posted. So it appears no action on the bill until at least Tuesday.

I guess the Lobbying goes on then.

Is it just me or, recently has Tony done everything possible to reduce the value of the team in Arizona? When they first purchased the team, he talked about breaking even by year 3 and profitability after that..all of that at GRA.The kind of things that potential investors like to hear. Now he says things like scary losses and not workable in GRA. If the bill is rejected and the tribes do not come through, then he has made the likelihood of finding investors or another potential owner for the team in Arizona extremely remote. He is telling everyone to stay away, as this situation is a disaster. That seems like a stupid thing for him to do.

Yeah, he's been saying things, making statements for quite some time now that he cant possibly walk-back. That where is as is the Coyotes are worth next to nothing, totally unworkable period end of story. We all know why he's taken the tack he has. Bottom-line, its a total failure of Leadership on his part, using Glendales actions as an alibi to excuse his own failures and in doing so has has closed the door on his only fallback option. Boxed himself & the League in which if deliberate, and hard not to assume that it is, then failing these last gasp Moon Shots that team is done in Arizona.

And one reason I think the Yotes will probably be in AZ for at least one more year.

Yes, agreed. I'm skeptical, that the NHL would pull the plug this spring, very likely there for at least another year. Another 12-14mnths of nonsense, false hope.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Expansion is not relocation. When you expand, the money you pay is to the other owners to make a new spot for you at the table. Relocation is replacing a chair at the table.

Those are two fundamentally different things

 

[Killion]

fact is, and you have never answered this directly, IA is committed to the state of Arizona, otherwise Arizona would STILL BE LOOKING FOR OWNERSHIP, since 2009, not having IA vetted/approved since 2010 to 2013, AND BRINGING THE AFFILIATE TO THE STATE ON TOP OF IT IN 15/16.

... I believe "they", namely the NHL & IceArizona have been doing precisely that since 2013 HUTCH. IA is essentially a Front, a Dummy Corporation, a Shell. The only hockey club they really own isnt in the NHL, its in Tucson & they play in the AHL as you well know. The NHL couldnt find anyone over 3-4yrs to take this thing off their hands, however you had a beyond compliant & way beyond generous Municipality who were propping up operations. Heavily invested. Backed the League in Bankruptcy. So they created, concocted this False Flag "sale" in order to get the mess off the front pages and for the past 3yrs have continued to beat the bushes looking for real ownership with real money of their own to ride to the rescue. IA merely caretakers, placeholders. However as is well documented, they blew it. Went way off reservation. They never had any credibility in my book, and whatever false credibility they did have in the eyes of many, the great people & fans in Arizona who having no options, no choice & who "wanted to believe" has been shot to Hell.... This group is AHL level ownership. In no way on any planet are they NHL caliber. And they got what they wanted. Proud owners of the Tucson Roadrunner. Great. Grand. Now how about everybody stop pretending to be something their not? Get real.

 

[BattleBorn]

I think the idea is way off base with this whole Vegas thing. However, in the interest of full accuracy and disclosure, Vegas doesn't have a franchise until Foley makes the full payment. That's was supposed to happen on March 1st, but has been pushed back due to paperwork.

The odds of the delay having anything to do with Arizona are slim though.

 

[SunDancer]

Yup. Not many good options above.

If this fails in the senate then were going to continue to hear innuendos on new locations downtown and east valley while try and figure those things out.

Failing that and any of the other options above what else is left? Fold the team and give Foley the roster or......my wild doube move theory from part CXXI, post #770

This may have been an option at one point but there are several factors that would prevent it from happening now.

- teams have been collecting their share of the expansion fee (last payment expected next week).
- GMs have been managing their rosters going into Wednesday's trade deadline with the understanding that they need to expose players in an expansion draft.
- the credibilty of the NHL's expansion process would be eroded even further.
- the VGK front office has already filled positions, like GM McPhee, that would be duplicated by acquiring the Coyotes.

Of course anything can happen in this saga but the Coyotes going to Vegas is highly unlikely.

 

[Killion]

I think the idea is way off base with this whole Vegas thing. However, in the interest of full accuracy and disclosure, Vegas doesn't have a franchise until Foley makes the full payment. That's was supposed to happen on March 1st, but has been pushed back due to paperwork.

The odds of the delay having anything to do with Arizona are slim though.

Yeah, Im not buying into that theory, dealeo whereby Vegas receives the Coyotes rather than starting from scratch with an Expansion franchise. That would require the consent of all 29 teams taking a haircut on the spoils of Expansion payments after Bettman promised them his little adventure in Arizona wouldnt cost them a nickle. Furthermore, its known Foley was "very interested" in the Coyotes provided he could move them to LV however its pretty clear that as the NHL didnt avail themselves of that opportunity and instead held out for a bigger payday in dinging Vegas to the tune of $500M by way of Expansion, how then would they go back & pull a bait n' switch on the guy? While it made sense pre-Expansion it doesnt make any sense now. Particularly so if Foley was told that the Coyotes despite their problems wouldnt be moving and that their very existence in being so close a rival would be a benefit to a Las Vegas franchise... which under normal circumstances, a healthy club in Arizona certainly would. I will however keep an open mind about this theory, goodness only knows, the NHL, but Im thinkin its a rather remote possibility with all kinds of factors against as SunDance points out above, that train already having left the station.

 

[SunDancer]

Yeah, he's been saying things, making statements for quite some time now that he cant possibly walk-back. That where is as is the Coyotes are worth next to nothing, totally unworkable period end of story. We all know why he's taken the tack he has. Bottom-line, its a total failure of Leadership on his part, using Glendales actions as an alibi to excuse his own failures and in doing so has has closed the door on his only fallback option. Boxed himself & the League in which if deliberate, and hard not to assume that it is, then failing these last gasp Moon Shots that team is done in Arizona.(

Oh, he'll do exactly that. Since when have little "inconsistencies" been a problem for Mr. Leblanc? It's not like anyone in the local media will ever scrutinize what he says.

 

[Killion]

Oh, he'll do exactly that. Since when have little "inconsistencies" been a problem for Mr. Leblanc? It's not like anyone in the local media will ever scrutinize what he says.

... "little"? no no, were talkin "whoppers". God, clearly this is a guy with a lifelong pattern of deception. likely born that way then supercharged as he believes he's gotten away with it, and he has throughout his career, certainly pulled a huge one off with Glendale, emboldened.... www.independent.co.uk/news/science/...make-telling-bigger-lies-easier-a7377481.html ... this guys amygdala completely gone.