Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[Bixby Snyder]

If they sold out "almost every game" and still had average attendance at 700 seats below capacity that would mean they would have had many games in front of no fans at all.

It's actually 625 below capacity averaged out over a season of 41 home games and a total of 25,625. So you could have 10 games where the team had an average of about 2,500 under capacity and you'd still be able to say most of the games were sold out.

 

[Llama19]

leblanc's statement was "We are open to exploring every economically viable solution in this market. The Coyotes sold out almost every game when we originally played downtown, and we are eager for the opportunity to explore such options with both the Suns and the City."

that means they sold out many, but not necessarily all games. it does not mean they sold 90% of tickets to every game or that they sold 95% to some and 80% to some. it means they SOLD OUT some games, and in fact, "almost every" means they sold out the majority.

now perhaps that's not what he intended to say, perhaps his understanding of the terminology is lacking. but that is indeed what he said.

as to whether is is true or not, well ...

Breakdown over the years...

Downtown/AWA/TSRA - 16,210
1997 - 15,585, 96.1%
1998 - 15,404, 95.0%
1999 - 15,547, 95.9%
2000 - 14,991, 92.5%
2001 - 14,224, 87.7%
2002 - 13,165, 81.2%
2003 - 13,229, 81.6%

Glendale - 17,125
2004 - 15,467, 90.3%
2005 - 15,582, 91.0%
2006 - 14,988, 87.5%
2007 - 14,820, 86.5%
2008 - 14,875, 86.9%
2009 - 11,989, 70.0%
2010 - 12,188, 71.2%
2011 - 12,421, 72.5%
2012 - 13,924, 81.3%
2013 - 13,776, 80.4%
2014 - 13,345, 77.9%
2015 - 13,350, 78.0%
2016 - 13,153, 76.8%

 

[Bixby Snyder]

That's what you want to believe. A Quebec-based team can play in the Central Division for a few seasons, moving Colorado to the Pacific Division until Seattle gets the shovels to the ground.

Location: Quebec City

I would say your more invested in what you want to believe. I don't live in either city and I'm not a fan of the Coyotes.

 

[Mightygoose]

Breakdown over the years...

Downtown/AWA/TSRA - 16,210
1997 - 15,585, 96.1%
1998 - 15,404, 95.0%
1999 - 15,547, 95.9%
2000 - 14,991, 92.5%
2001 - 14,224, 87.7%
2002 - 13,165, 81.2%
2003 - 13,229, 81.6%

Glendale - 17,125
2004 - 15,467, 90.3%
2005 - 15,582, 91.0%
2006 - 14,988, 87.5%
2007 - 14,820, 86.5%
2008 - 14,875, 86.9%
2009 - 11,989, 70.0%
2010 - 12,188, 71.2%
2011 - 12,421, 72.5%
2012 - 13,924, 81.3%
2013 - 13,776, 80.4%
2014 - 13,345, 77.9%
2015 - 13,350, 78.0%
2016 - 13,153, 76.8%

This

It shows that historically it doesn't make any significant difference where the arena is located.

It just debunks the fantasy that the team was better off downtown or 'closer to the fans' in the East Valley.

All this talk of these locations plays into the spin by LeBlanc and any media partner of the team and the league.

If another West Valley location offered to build an arena with 100% of the cost on their dime and offered 15-20 million to the team on top of it to run it, does the team still say no due to the location?

 

[cobra427]

Regardless of what happens to the bill, they'll definitely be playing in Glendale next year. Although it won't be any more or less "lame-duck" than any other year. The only difference might be that with a bad team and Leblanc openly criticizing the location, attendance may really crater. As far as the NHL's MO is concerned, nothing will change. Keep the ship afloat until they catch the big fish. IA will continue to do what they've been doing since their arrival ... seek out additional revenues (public/private) and leave no stone unturned. They'll continue lobbying various levels of government, prepare for the next year's state budget, string along Glendale, take advantage of Stanton's public comments, talk to Sarver's secretary, explore options with the tribes, plant vague relocation rumors, etc, etc, lather, rinse, repeat.

So what's next? In a word ... nothing. Welcome to the Megathread.

Agreed. The team is not leaving AZ. The NHL wants to keep a team in AZ and get the next 500 mil+ expansion fee. The NHL needs to see more value short term and long term by moving the team in order for it to happen. Moving isn't in the cards, but carry on.....

 

[BattleBorn]

I always think it's funny that we have a Conference where every team is east of Michigan and in the same time zone and the answer to the Quebec situation is always "well, they can play in the Central Division for a while." As if the Western teams aren't travelling enough, let's send them a conference partner that's located north of Boston and send them out that way another time so we can fit QC into the mix and none of the current eastern teams would have to be uncomfortable.

It's beside the point as many have said, I just always think it's funny that the logistics of Quebec being in the Western Conference are so easily dismissed. This isn't really keeping Winnpeg in the Southeast. This is adding yet another time zone and either the most eastern team or the second most eastern team (Don't know if QC is east of Boston) to the Western conference.

 

[Elephant Igloo]

I always think it's funny that we have a Conference where every team is east of Michigan and in the same time zone and the answer to the Quebec situation is always "well, they can play in the Central Division for a while." As if the Western teams aren't travelling enough, let's send them a conference partner that's located north of Boston and send them out that way another time so we can fit QC into the mix and none of the current eastern teams would have to be uncomfortable.

It's beside the point as many have said, I just always think it's funny that the logistics of Quebec being in the Western Conference are so easily dismissed. This isn't really keeping Winnpeg in the Southeast. This is adding yet another time zone and either the most eastern team or the second most eastern team (Don't know if QC is east of Boston) to the Western conference.

I think we're eventually going to wind up with Detroit in a Central Division that only visits the other 24 teams once a year. You can't hold Quebec City out of the league forever because it might hurt Mike Ilitch's feelings. Mike Ilitch is dead as a doornail.

 

[SunDancer]

This

It shows that historically it doesn't make any significant difference where the arena is located.

It just debunks the fantasy that the team was better off downtown or 'closer to the fans' in the East Valley.

All this talk of these locations plays into the spin by LeBlanc and any media partner of the team and the league.

If another West Valley location offered to build an arena with 100% of the cost on their dime and offered 15-20 million to the team on top of it to run it, does the team still say no due to the location?

It does indeed. Leblanc's clearly assuming nobody in the media will bother to investigate the team's 20-year-old attendance numbers. It's just surprising that he would even venture to comment on their attendance downtown at all since he risks exposing the biggest fallacy in his quest ... the necessity of a new arena. As long as the team's garbage, nothing will change no matter where they play.

 

[MNNumbers]

I always think it's funny that we have a Conference where every team is east of Michigan and in the same time zone and the answer to the Quebec situation is always "well, they can play in the Central Division for a while." As if the Western teams aren't travelling enough, let's send them a conference partner that's located north of Boston and send them out that way another time so we can fit QC into the mix and none of the current eastern teams would have to be uncomfortable.

It's beside the point as many have said, I just always think it's funny that the logistics of Quebec being in the Western Conference are so easily dismissed. This isn't really keeping Winnpeg in the Southeast. This is adding yet another time zone and either the most eastern team or the second most eastern team (Don't know if QC is east of Boston) to the Western conference.

I have answers for this, but no time now. Believe me, it's not as bad as you think.

 

[BattleBorn]

I have answers for this, but no time now. Believe me, it's not as bad as you think.

I've seen them, it's an extra trip north during an east coast swing.

It's just funny to me that one conference has everything so nicely packed up in a little box (and don't even get me started on the divisions) and the most reasonable answer a lot of pretty smart posters can propose is to put a city in the Western Conference that's probably a good 1,000 miles from its nearest conference mate and in a completely different time zone.

We'll have one conference completely contained within one time zone and the other conference spanning the four major time zones. 3/1 is bad enough AFAIC.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It shows that historically it doesn't make any significant difference where the arena is located.

Yes, but it also shows other things. For example, you can clearly see in the Glendale numbers the precipitous dropoff that occurred in 2009 when the team went bankrupt and nearly got packed off to Hamilton, and the impact that nearly a decade of perennial relocation rumors since then has had on attendance. You can also see in 2002 when relocation rumors to Portland started popping up, as well as the intrigue surrounding Scottsdale and Glendale, and what impact that had on the team's bottom line. Combined with declining on-ice performance, it tells a much more complex story than the standard canard of "The Coyotes never drew in their entire history."

If another West Valley location offered to build an arena with 100% of the cost on their dime and offered 15-20 million to the team on top of it to run it, does the team still say no due to the location?

As long as it's not in Glendale? Probably... although I can't say for sure as I am still not certain of what IA's actual endgame is.

As long as the team's garbage, nothing will change no matter where they play.

#NailedIt

 

[cbcwpg]

Speaking of attendance a bit...

When your attendance at games could be better, it might be best to not tell the people that do show up, how to have fun.



seriously... yeah I know the wave is old and all, but if fans still want to do it... encourage it Yotes.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

seriously... yeah I know the wave is old and all, but if fans still want to do it... encourage it Yotes.

I don't want to overgeneralize, but in my tenure as a STH I've noticed that the fans starting/doing the wave are almost always in the opposing team's sweater.

Most Coyotes fans are too sullen and quiet to get the energy up to consider the wave...

 

[MNNumbers]

I've seen them, it's an extra trip north during an east coast swing.

It's just funny to me that one conference has everything so nicely packed up in a little box (and don't even get me started on the divisions) and the most reasonable answer a lot of pretty smart posters can propose is to put a city in the Western Conference that's probably a good 1,000 miles from its nearest conference mate and in a completely different time zone.

We'll have one conference completely contained within one time zone and the other conference spanning the four major time zones. 3/1 is bad enough AFAIC.

Actually the most reasonable answer is something with a much greater mix. It's not the posters here that are the problem, it's the eastern owners.

Your argument about another eastern trip is an argument against Quebec ever being part of the league, right?

 

[BattleBorn]

Actually the most reasonable answer is something with a much greater mix. It's not the posters here that are the problem, it's the eastern owners.

Your argument about another eastern trip is an argument against Quebec ever being part of the league, right?

I'd like Quebec to return. I'd like for them to return in the Eastern Conference.

QC being in the west makes as much sense to me as Carolina moving to Seattle and staying in the Metro. As a fan of two western teams, I couldn't care less about conference imbalance since my teams benefit from it. I've just got no desire to have either of my teams travel to play a Western team in the ETZ. I like conference games starting at reasonable times and the idea that the Knights might start a conference game while Knights fans with normal jobs are still at work is ridiculous. That doesn't even touch on the fact that my teams travel significantly more than Eastern teams and are at a disadvantage in the playoffs and regular season in that way.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I'd like Quebec to return. I'd like for them to return in the Eastern Conference.

QC being in the west makes as much sense to me as Carolina moving to Seattle and staying in the Metro. As a fan of two western teams, I couldn't care less about conference imbalance since my teams benefit from it. I've just got no desire to have either of my teams travel to play a Western team in the ETZ. I like conference games starting at reasonable times and the idea that the Knights might start a conference game while Knights fans with normal jobs are still at work is ridiculous. That doesn't even touch on the fact that my teams travel significantly more than Eastern teams and are at a disadvantage in the playoffs and regular season in that way.

Yeah, hard to disagree with any of this.

I mean, all you have to do is look at a map to know that putting Quebec anywhere else but the East is ridiculous. The best bet for QC is if one of the Islanders, Panthers, or Hurricanes gets to needing a new home and can't find one where they're at, because the next expansion team is definitely going to be in the West. There's no other logistical way to do it.

If Quebec City could pack up lock, stock, and barrel and move to Saskatchewan, they'd be in the league already. I'll bet you anything that the BoG wishes that Saskatoon were large enough to host an NHL franchise, because that would solve a whole host of logistical problems.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I don't want to overgeneralize, but in my tenure as a STH I've noticed that the fans starting/doing the wave are almost always in the opposing team's sweater.

Circumstantial evidence - I happened to be in 114 that night, two sections to the left, and there were a lot of Duck fans down in that area (plus their team had just scored late to get within 1 goal)

 

[Blue Warriors]

Yeah, hard to disagree with any of this.

I mean, all you have to do is look at a map to know that putting Quebec anywhere else but the East is ridiculous. The best bet for QC is if one of the Islanders, Panthers, or Hurricanes gets to needing a new home and can't find one where they're at, because the next expansion team is definitely going to be in the West. There's no other logistical way to do it.

If Quebec City could pack up lock, stock, and barrel and move to Saskatchewan, they'd be in the league already. I'll bet you anything that the BoG wishes that Saskatoon were large enough to host an NHL franchise, because that would solve a whole host of logistical problems.

Let's imagine this situation: two teams need to move in the next 5 years, one is in the East ( the owner is worried about his legacy as a US Hockey HoF member), one is in the West ( the owners are possibly caretakers for the NHL). There are two landing spots, one in Eastern Canada one in the Pacific Northwest. The Eastern one is all set with ownership, new arena and rabid fanbase. The Western one has great potential, but needs a suitable building and time to market the arrival of the team. What happens if the Western team needs to move first?

 

[gravyleaves]

Let's imagine this situation: two teams need to move in the next 5 years, one is in the East ( the owner is worried about his legacy as a US Hockey HoF member), one is in the West ( the owners are possibly caretakers for the NHL). There are two landing spots, one in Eastern Canada one in the Pacific Northwest. The Eastern one is all set with ownership, new arena and rabid fanbase. The Western one has great potential, but needs a suitable building and time to market the arrival of the team. What happens if the Western team needs to move first?

You move the Coyucks but time it with the next lockout so the imbalance pain lasts a year less. The lockout also would surely be the straw that causes the Hurrlanders to move, restoring the balance.

 

[Llama19]

 

[cutchemist42]

Let's imagine this situation: two teams need to move in the next 5 years, one is in the East ( the owner is worried about his legacy as a US Hockey HoF member), one is in the West ( the owners are possibly caretakers for the NHL). There are two landing spots, one in Eastern Canada one in the Pacific Northwest. The Eastern one is all set with ownership, new arena and rabid fanbase. The Western one has great potential, but needs a suitable building and time to market the arrival of the team. What happens if the Western team needs to move first?

Then you handle it the same way the Jets were? (Although the Jets came in during the old setup now that I think about it more...)

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Let's imagine this situation: two teams need to move in the next 5 years, one is in the East ( the owner is worried about his legacy as a US Hockey HoF member), one is in the West ( the owners are possibly caretakers for the NHL). There are two landing spots, one in Eastern Canada one in the Pacific Northwest. The Eastern one is all set with ownership, new arena and rabid fanbase. The Western one has great potential, but needs a suitable building and time to market the arrival of the team. What happens if the Western team needs to move first?

Well, first things first - "time to market the arrival of the team" is not a consideration in relocation. The Coyotes certainly didn't have that largesse when the Jets' Minnesota plans fell through and they switched at the last minute to Phoenix. And Winnipeg barely had time to rejoice before the Thrashers landed on the doorstep of the MTS Centre.

So what it comes down to is that if the Coyotes need to move at the end of 2018 - and this is by no means certain, because even if they DO decide to move they can wait at Gila River Arena year to year until things are ready elsewhere - the NHL is going to look at the West first, no matter what. The only way, IMO, that they look at Quebec City as the landing spot for the team is if a) the relocation HAS to happen on short notice, b) there is no available short-term spot in Portland or Seattle, and c) there are no Eastern teams such as Carolina or New York which have any possibility at all of needing a new home.

 

[RogerRoger]

Then you handle it the same way the Jets were? (Although the Jets came in during the old setup now that I think about it more...)

Yeah, you let them play for a little while in the division of the "previous" team. Then you change the conference/division for the league to make it work in the best way possible.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Roadrage]

$225MM now? Or is that supposed to be the Coyotes "$170MM contribution" plus whichever sucker municipality's $55MM?